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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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umbro2914 wrote:

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You're absurd. Give them? are you serious?


huh? dude.....Pulaski served in the USA....we built a bridge in his name....but it's something very appreciated by Poles around the world. is "give" that bad of a choice of words? you build something and if it's not for yourself but for someone else, you're "giving" it to someone, no? this is silly. relax, pappy.

Posted on: 2010/11/12 2:55
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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You're absurd. Give them? are you serious? first of all, I'm assuming you are referring to Pulaski skyway... Pulaski did much more for the United States than he did for Poland. He is an American Patriot, and as of last year, An AMerican citizen. And through his service to the United States, in whose name he perished, he certinley merits a bridge name.
Katyn monument wasnt "given" but the Polish community of Jersey City and area raised the funds to create this beautiful testement to the struggle against communism and USSR. Its a part of the world history, and jc history.

And regarding your slimy jab about the colors of the empire state building, -- totally out of context. Yes, there were some Poles upset because they're proposal was decline although in previous years it had been approved. Also, its upsetting to some Poles because just a few weeks prior to Pulaski Day, the Empire State bldg lit up Yellow Red Black for the Germans, thus why not also honor the Poles. And its their right to be upset... has nothing to do with stereotypes or any other BS your advocating. Quote:

trp3 wrote:
sinik wrote:

Quote:
I wonder how many statues to Columbus there are in Poland


zero.

in a related matter, you'd be surprised to see how many poles were pissed off because NYC didn't light the empire state building in polish colors to commemorate Pulaski this year. but, that's just the way poles are. give em' a bridge, give em' a monument....they'll still complain about a light display.

Posted on: 2010/11/11 22:41
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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people that know nothing about the statue's significance should stop being so insensitive. it should stay.

I also want to petition to rename christopher columbus drive. the name is too long and wont fit on my driver's license and takes too long to write out on forms. oh and he didnt really discover america and killed natives.

Posted on: 2010/11/11 10:36
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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sinik wrote:

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I wonder how many statues to Columbus there are in Poland


zero.

in a related matter, you'd be surprised to see how many poles were pissed off because NYC didn't light the empire state building in polish colors to commemorate Pulaski this year. but, that's just the way poles are. give em' a bridge, give em' a monument....they'll still complain about a light display.

Posted on: 2010/11/11 7:42
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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That statue reminds me of some over the top gay interpretive dance step.

Posted on: 2010/11/9 23:18
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I never heard of that debacle until now. Thank you for bringing the Pigeon story to my attention. I was in tears reading that. Like everyone else , 9/11 affected me deeply and since then I've avoided the waterfront on that day and don't watch the memorials etc. Its just my way of dealing with it. But now that I know the pigeon story I have something to think about other than grief. Thank you very much. As they say LMFAO.

Posted on: 2010/11/9 23:16
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Posted on: 2010/11/9 22:15
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Quote:

johnr wrote:


Since I've lived here I have not been able to understand why we would want to superimpose the NYC skyline at our most prime waterfront location (Exchange Place) with a giant, grotesque symbol of foreign nationalism.

Apparently there were originally a huge amount of Polish that lived here and had their way with the place, but downtown is clearly not a Polish/ethnic neighborhood any longer. Lots of terrible things happened to lots of people during lots of wars in lots of places all throughout history. This thing has to do with a conflict between Poland and Russia. What is it doing here?

Can't we think of something a bit more positive to welcome NYC travelers to Jersey City with?


Only in Jersey City

Posted on: 2010/5/24 18:59
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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That statue is compelling and unapologetically unique. My favorite statue in JC.

Posted on: 2010/5/24 13:27
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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My girlfriend and I were fortunate enough to accidentally come across all of the Polish war veterans and their families at the mass/ceremony that resulted in all those candles.

The most disturbing thing about government mass murder, is that when almost none of the victims survive there isn't even anyone to bear witness. That was the case in Katyn but more generally has been the fate of the victims of Communism. At least a few old vets have knowledge of what happened.

"The Black Book of Communism" by former French Communists is a great read and partial penance. If anyone reads this and still doesn't see why there should be monuments everywhere about what Communism resulted in; please post.

Posted on: 2010/5/24 0:29
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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2DogDoll wrote:
So tell us Heights, what's your background --- unless you are a direct decendent from one the original Indian tribes, your people had to have come from somewhere else --- You have such a strong bias against immigrants --- What's your history? Culture?
And, FYI: the thread talks about the Katyn monument, not Guy Catrillo --- that's a WHOLE other story ----

I quoted the mention of Guy Catrillo. As far as the monument goes it is not an American memorial. So thats it, cut & dry. I am second generation born here. Are you American born ? It sounds as if you are not. I hope I can still wave the American flag or is that frowned upon as well ?

Posted on: 2010/5/1 23:02
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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So tell us Heights, what's your background --- unless you are a direct decendent from one the original Indian tribes, your people had to have come from somewhere else --- You have such a strong bias against immigrants --- What's your history? Culture?
And, FYI: the thread talks about the Katyn monument, not Guy Catrillo --- that's a WHOLE other story ----

Posted on: 2010/5/1 18:49
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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umbro2914 wrote:

3.) Those who fail to understand the symbolism of the scuplture. The "stabbing in the back" is very often used phrase when describing Poland in World War II, because when WWII erupted, Poland was fighting Germany, from September 1, however on September 17, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east, unnanounced and unprovoked. Thus the Poles refer to the Soviet Invasion as a stabbing in the back. So that is why the POw is being bayonneted.


But the "stabbing in the back" does not just refer to Russia, it refers to the "Western Betrayal". Russia at the time had formed an alliance with Germany (Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). France and Britain had agreements with Poland that they would come to the aid of Poland in the event it was attacked. When Poland was attacked by Germany, France and Britain declared war on Germany but did not take any significant action against Germany for some months. Meanwhile, the US did not want to get involved in a European war but aided Britain and France in re-arming. That period was known as the phony war. Later when the graves were discovered by the Nazis, the US and Britain tried to turn a blind eye and blamed the massacre on the Germans in order to keep the US-British-Soviet alliance intact. There was a deal at the Tehran conference between Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin which shifted the Polish borders without the consent of the Poles. Finally at the Yalta conference neither Churchill nor Roosevelt opposed Stalin's demand to maintain occupation in Poland.

The statue does not depict a Russian soldier stabbing the Polish officer in the back, it does not show who is doing the stabbing.

I understand there are very strong feelings of anger and bitterness for the massacre and the actions of other countries. But to choose to create a memorial 50 years later that displays these feelings in such a graphic and permanent way does not give much hope for ultimate reconciliation and permanent peace.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 18:22
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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umbro2914 wrote:
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heights wrote:
This is not about J.C. history and culture read the thread title. Ever heard of Europe.

The United States is unlike most other nations in that its history and culture is the blend of the immigrants who founded, and populated this nation.
Almost every city in the NorthEast is what it is today because of the immigrants who came over and populated it. Their history, cultures, and traditions thus became a part of the city, and the region.


and if you really want to get technical, any "real Jersey City" monument would feature a member of the Lenni Lenape tribe. you know, getting stabbed in the back.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 17:41
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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heights wrote:
This is not about J.C. history and culture read the thread title. Ever heard of Europe.

The United States is unlike most other nations in that its history and culture is the blend of the immigrants who founded, and populated this nation.
Almost every city in the NorthEast is what it is today because of the immigrants who came over and populated it. Their history, cultures, and traditions thus became a part of the city, and the region.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 17:37
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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12345 wrote:

Guy Catrillo is also responsible for the 911 tombstone and broken steel memorial at the foot of Grand Street. He could not get doves for the early morning ceremony on 9.11.2002 so he purchased pigeons from a slaughterhouse in Newark and the disgrace that ensued made international news.


omigod, I'd never heard this story. thanks for sharing! it will haunt/amuse me for days to come.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 17:34
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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2DogDoll wrote:
>>> It is objectionable to many and is therefore inappropriate. >>>
This is not about Guy Catrillo. This is a part of Jeresy City's history and culture. Leave it alone.

This is not about J.C. history and culture read the thread title. Ever heard of Europe.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 17:08
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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theres well over a hundred candles on the thing as of yesterday. obviously it means alot to some people in jc. the thing isnt going anywhere you whiney fruitcakes.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 12:29
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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12345 wrote:
The word to consider here is Public. It is objectionable to many and is therefore inappropriate. If it were a scene of a movie it would be considered PG or PG 13 because the image is violent and "material may be not suitable for children" and therefore not suitable as Public Art. I do not want my kids to see it. Put it in a museum where people can choose to see it.
.


If your concerned about your children seeing innappropriate things, you ought to worry more about the half-naked "women" around Jc....

Seeing such a monument will do them no harm, but may in fact stir an intererest in them about history, about their heritage, and about freedom.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 11:28
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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>>> It is objectionable to many and is therefore inappropriate. >>>

There are a lot of things in life that are objectionabe to many. One person's objectionable is another person's "fine." So how about the many people who find it compelling and want it to stay? Don't their opinions count?

Have you actually seen the so called "giant vagina" ? It's really a giant tear drop and the reflections in the metal at various times of the day, not to mention the background scenes, can be quite amazing. It may not qualify as great art, whatever that means, but it is a powerful visual.

This is not about Guy Catrillo. This is a part of Jeresy City's history and culture. Leave it alone.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 11:08
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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The word to consider here is Public. It is objectionable to many and is therefore inappropriate. If it were a scene of a movie it would be considered PG or PG 13 because the image is violent and "material may be not suitable for children" and therefore not suitable as Public Art. I do not want my kids to see it. Put it in a museum where people can choose to see it.

Guy Catrillo the Team Healy candidate and PLANNING BOARD employee who is sitting in jail right now for his conviction of taking bribes is the person responsible for placing Katyn at its current location. I know this because I attended a meeting several years ago where I personally heard him say this to the group. He said it was before the tall buildings and other neighborhoods did not want it so Exchange Place was the easy target.

Guy Catrillo is also responsible for the 911 tombstone and broken steel memorial at the foot of Grand Street. He could not get doves for the early morning ceremony on 9.11.2002 so he purchased pigeons from a slaughterhouse in Newark and the disgrace that ensued made international news.

Guy Carillo was persistent; after the pigeon fiasco he continued to lead the 911 Memorial Committee and was one of the advocates of a monumnet in Bayonne sometimes referred to as the "giant vagina". It was originally supposed to be placed right next to Katyn on the Exchange Place pier.

I am polish; I hate Putin and the Russian Dictators that preceded him and I want this hideous statue removed. It looks like something that a Russian Artist would come up with to disgrace the memory of the Polish massacre.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 2:23
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I read all these posts and I have some thoughts to share

1.) This monument was envisioned, and constructed through the will and hard work of the Polish Community in Jersey City. Tax payers did not pay for this, the people raised money and made this monument as a testement that they will never forget what happened in Katyn in 1940.

2.) Those of you who say to dump it in the ocean, shame on you. Uncalled for.

3.) Those who fail to understand the symbolism of the scuplture. The "stabbing in the back" is very often used phrase when describing Poland in World War II, because when WWII erupted, Poland was fighting Germany, from September 1, however on September 17, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east, unnanounced and unprovoked. Thus the Poles refer to the Soviet Invasion as a stabbing in the back. So that is why the POw is being bayonneted.

4.) Is the monument gruesome, sure, but I find it very fitting. It conveys a message, and it commemorates the dead. Its a part of Jersey City culture now, and to do away with it is a travesty. It does not obstruct the view of NYC at all. If you want to see NYc, do behind the sculptuer, along the water.

5.) And for those who dont know, the monument is still in use, serving as the site of numerous Polish ceremonies and events.

Posted on: 2010/5/1 0:34
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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neverleft wrote:

Hey sinik....

You know what? I think you are on to something!

I have never seen Christopher Columbus jogging down in Liberty State Park. (I may give him a pass on that just because he did wear those nasty painful looking shoes) Nor has he ever had his ship docked at the Liberty Marina.



1. I wonder how many statues to Columbus there are in Poland. Maybe they have no particular reason to have them.
2. I certainly would have little problem if the Katyn Memorial was in LSP although it is still ugly and has an in your face political message that is directed as much at ally as enemy.
If people don't know why this is, I suggest they acquaint themselves with the Katyn story and its aftermath and the nature of the western response in 1943 when the graves were discovered. I am sure there was plenty to criticize the US and UK for but is it the right place in a war memorial to the dead?
3. Columbus may never have set foot in America but he is a very significant figure in the history of America.
4. Does the Columbus statue have any particular political message?

Posted on: 2010/4/30 23:44
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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The statue reminds me daily, of what cityhall is doing to it's residents

Posted on: 2010/4/30 18:28
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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As a person who lost relatives in the holocaust, I would feel the same way if someone put up a statue of a prisoner in a concentration camp being bayonetted in the back. There are plenty of ways to memorialize that event in history without an ugly statue. In fact, why not use this as a catalyst to start a museum for this similar to the various holocaust museums around the world? -1 out of place statue, +1 museum.... creates jobs, cultural interest, etc.


Terri wrote:
Quote:

As I person who had relatives that died during the Katyn massacre, how dare you degrade the meaning behind this statue. I wish you could tell how you feel to my relatives, but they're dead - died for no reason by people who are/were as ignorant as you seem to be. I'm horrified at your thoughts. What is next, holocaust memorials?


I'd tell them that they deserve a better memorial than that lone, ugly statue.

Posted on: 2010/4/30 15:05
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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What a mess this thread is.
Some say the "hipsters" want to keep it and some say it's the old school JCers that want it. Same thing for getting rid of it. Aside from that, I think someone else is using "hipster" and "yuppie" interchangeably.

In any event. I didn't know about the Katyn massacre until I first saw the statue. The obvious curiousity of the piece made me take notice and learn about the tragedy. The monument has served its purpose.
For those keeping score, I like it.

Posted on: 2010/4/30 14:48
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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the over-the-top gruesomeness of this statue is sort of why I like it. say what you will, it definitely gets your attention.

but that's why I think it defeats the purpose of honoring the Katyn dead. it's almost too macabre to inspire thoughtful discussion.

as a landmark, you could do worse than "meet me at the statue of the guy with the bayonet sticking out of his back. no, seriously. it's a huge bayonet, sticking right through him. you'll know it when you see it."

Posted on: 2010/4/30 13:46
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Kind of feel the same way about you. Thanks for sharing!

Posted on: 2010/4/30 13:32
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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.

Hey sinik....

You know what? I think you are on to something!

I have never seen Christopher Columbus jogging down in Liberty State Park. (I may give him a pass on that just because he did wear those nasty painful looking shoes) Nor has he ever had his ship docked at the Liberty Marina.

Screw him…lets start a drive to have that ugly Tiki God statue..err… Fudge sickle… err… sail?.. removed from LSP.

Who’s with me?

Resized Image


Sails of Columbus Monument
Liberty State Park

Posted on: 2010/4/30 12:25
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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corybraiterman wrote:
I say this every time this thread comes up.

Long time JC resident. Fairly ugly statue that is out of place and was erected to get votes. Would love to see it moved to somewhere more appropriate, like Poland, or at least not the center of the downtown district.



There are 235,000+ long time residents who don't want this statue. Keep the 2,000 hipsters who want to keep this statue in place from taking over this town. Thank you.


As I person who had relatives that died during the Katyn massacre, how dare you degrade the meaning behind this statue. I wish you could tell how you feel to my relatives, but they're dead - died for no reason by people who are/were as ignorant as you seem to be. I'm horrified at your thoughts. What is next, holocaust memorials?

Posted on: 2010/4/30 12:11
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