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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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moobycow wrote:
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thor800 wrote:

Thanks for the english lesson. By the way its privileged not privileges.

Dt will be subsidizing rest of the city soon. People whining about paying taxes too high could appeal them now


Meh, that's how society functions. People who have more pay more. Such is life. I say this as someone who is likely to see his bill double.

Frankly, the idea that there is someone Greenville are paying an extra $2k so I can save $10k disgusts me.


Exactly. The current taxes in much of downtown are subsidized.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 20:50
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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brewster wrote:
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thor800 wrote:
People whining about paying taxes too high could appeal them now


Yes, they could get them reduced...to only twice what you're paying.


Unless they are paying $20k year

Posted on: 2016/6/2 20:32
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:

Thanks for the english lesson. By the way its privileged not privileges.

Dt will be subsidizing rest of the city soon. People whining about paying taxes too high could appeal them now


Meh, that's how society functions. People who have more pay more. Such is life. I say this as someone who is likely to see his bill double.

Frankly, the idea that there is someone Greenville are paying an extra $2k so I can save $10k disgusts me.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 20:30
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:
People whining about paying taxes too high could appeal them now


Yes, they could get them reduced...to only twice what you're paying.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 20:20
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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papadage wrote:
Some people are paying double what they should to subsidize wealthier people.

You do sound privileges and whiny.

And the word is moot.. not mute.. moot.


Thanks for the english lesson. By the way its privileged not privileges.

Dt will be subsidizing rest of the city soon. People whining about paying taxes too high could appeal them now

Posted on: 2016/6/2 20:12
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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Some people are paying double what they should to subsidize wealthier people.

You do sound privileges and whiny.

And the word is moot.. not mute.. moot.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 19:49
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:
Should someone that bought a house 10 years ago for $750K now worth $1.5M with taxes at $10K have to pay an increase in $20K after the reval ? I disagree that this is worth lowering someone in Greenville's taxes $2k as a measure of "fairness" if both are using the same resources.

Value can be extremely subjective indicator and I personally (taxes set to double after the reval depending on assessment) feel that dtjc will be subsidizing other areas JC way more than they are subsidizing us now.


The "resource use" argument is a nonstarter, as already pointed out. Do you really not have any idea how privileged and whiney you sound? You want your high value but don't want to be taxed on it.

Since you apparently value low taxes more than high equity and are probably under 62, you're the perfect customer for the city run lien bonding I propose that would be like reverse mortgage in it's effect.


Privileged and whiney because my taxes are set to skyrocket based on a superficial measure of value ? I guess it doesn't matter because I could just sell and leave ? What about longtime owners that have no desire to leave ? High value appreciation in a short time is great for flippers and investors but can screw regular owners.

Obviously this is a mute point because that's how NJ does things, but again if you had actually read my posts and not just jumped to a brainless conclusion, I was responding in context to the CivicJC article which stated that the reval should occur because it would bring fairness to JC's property taxes and people in areas that have not appreciated are paying slightly too much will see a slight reduction while dtjc's will see a skewed opposite.

I am not opposed to paying my fair share, but what is fair aside from what the state says is law ? Again, most likely mute point if the city has little say in the matter but I still disagree regarding CivicJC's point that the reval should be done based on tax fairness.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 19:10
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:
Should someone that bought a house 10 years ago for $750K now worth $1.5M with taxes at $10K have to pay an increase in $20K after the reval ? I disagree that this is worth lowering someone in Greenville's taxes $2k as a measure of "fairness" if both are using the same resources.

Value can be extremely subjective indicator and I personally (taxes set to double after the reval depending on assessment) feel that dtjc will be subsidizing other areas JC way more than they are subsidizing us now.


The "resource use" argument is a nonstarter, as already pointed out. Do you really not have any idea how privileged and whiney you sound? You want your high value but don't want to be taxed on it.

Since you apparently value low taxes more than high equity and are probably under 62, you're the perfect customer for the city run lien bonding I propose that would be like reverse mortgage in it's effect.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 18:03
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:
Having a valuable house is good if you want to sell but very unhelpful otherwise


I see... so you want to have your cake, and eat it.

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Should someone that bought a house 10 years ago for $750K now worth $1.5M with taxes at $10K have to pay an increase in $20K after the reval ?


YES. Of course, it wouldn't have been that much of a shock if the property had been assessed its proper tax levy throughout the years, instead of the craziness that has ensued for the past 28 years. That potential property owner is not being penalized! He is being asked to pay the taxes that he should have been paying all along. Consider how much he/she has saved over the past 5 or 10 years alone... Stop with the whining.

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I disagree that this is worth lowering someone in Greenville's taxes $2k as a measure of "fairness" if both are using the same resources.


The horror...! They are using the same resources (or, more!) but paying less!! Newsflash: that's how taxes work! No kids in public school? Tough cookies, you still have to pay school taxes. Don't own a car? Oh well, you are still paying for road upkeep. Here is a simple fact: taxes are not levied based on how much, or how little, public resources you use. Generally, the more you make, the more you pay, and the more you own, the more you pay.

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Value can be extremely subjective indicator and I personally (taxes set to double after the reval depending on assessment) feel that dtjc will be subsidizing other areas JC way more than they are subsidizing us now.


How do you figure? Mathematically, that is obviously not the case. But, since none of your whining makes much sense, that last line is just par for the course.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 17:59
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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brewster wrote:
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thor800 wrote:
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Taking on a reverse mortgage is a big commitment though depending on the interest rate.

The better thing to do would take an adjusted average of the current market value and a tiered increasing of property taxes so that a scenario where taxes would double or triple is avoided. Simply adding more leverage to the equation isn't necessarily the best answer though it might be the only option if the city has little leeway for the reval terms.


Yes, of course you're right. It WOULD be much better for those homeowners to continue to be subsidized rather than have the bother of borrowing against their large equity. But that's not the way this works.

And what's so scary about the mortgage? you pay it off at sale, or sooner if you decide you no longer need it. The free lunch is over. I'm a little daunted too, I expect my tax to go up $10-15k, but this is inevitable, and I've done very well owning my DT property.


Having a valuable house is good if you want to sell but very unhelpful otherwise unless that value is directly tied to potential revenue generation (high rent areas - which dtjc is however value to rental revenue is seriously skewed out of whack).

Should someone that bought a house 10 years ago for $750K now worth $1.5M with taxes at $10K have to pay an increase in $20K after the reval ? I disagree that this is worth lowering someone in Greenville's taxes $2k as a measure of "fairness" if both are using the same resources.

Value can be extremely subjective indicator and I personally (taxes set to double after the reval depending on assessment) feel that dtjc will be subsidizing other areas JC way more than they are subsidizing us now.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 17:45
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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and there is something called the the Senior Freeze (Property Tax Reimbursement) that might assist seniors and the disabled who have owned there home for 10+ years that might help mitigate the impact of the property tax revaluation -

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxat ... tions/senior-freeze.shtml

i am still trying learn more about this. but regardless of the reval, this is something that the city should be educating homeowners on (they are not.)


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brewster wrote:
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thor800 wrote:
[quote]
Taking on a reverse mortgage is a big commitment though depending on the interest rate.

The better thing to do would take an adjusted average of the current market value and a tiered increasing of property taxes so that a scenario where taxes would double or triple is avoided. Simply adding more leverage to the equation isn't necessarily the best answer though it might be the only option if the city has little leeway for the reval terms.


Yes, of course you're right. It WOULD be much better for those homeowners to continue to be subsidized rather than have the bother of borrowing against their large equity. But that's not the way this works.

And what's so scary about the mortgage? you pay it off at sale, or sooner if you decide you no longer need it. The free lunch is over. I'm a little daunted too, I expect my tax to go up $10-15k, but this is inevitable, and I've done very well owning my DT property.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 17:03
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:
[quote]
Taking on a reverse mortgage is a big commitment though depending on the interest rate.

The better thing to do would take an adjusted average of the current market value and a tiered increasing of property taxes so that a scenario where taxes would double or triple is avoided. Simply adding more leverage to the equation isn't necessarily the best answer though it might be the only option if the city has little leeway for the reval terms.


Yes, of course you're right. It WOULD be much better for those homeowners to continue to be subsidized rather than have the bother of borrowing against their large equity. But that's not the way this works.

And what's so scary about the mortgage? you pay it off at sale, or sooner if you decide you no longer need it. The free lunch is over. I'm a little daunted too, I expect my tax to go up $10-15k, but this is inevitable, and I've done very well owning my DT property.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 16:29
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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user1111 wrote:
Exactly! I have a friend who purchased a brownstone in 1978 downtown on 3rd and Erie for $38k. Once the reval happens he will no longer be able to afford the tax bill because he is now retired but I don't fell bad for him a bit, because he house is worth 1.7 million its a two family brownstone. He has been looking for a smaller house to buy up the hill (Bergen Lafayette and Greenville) and sell before the reval happens.


I know I sound like a broken record on this, but it bears repeating, NO ONE WITH MASSIVE EQUITY AND LOW INCOME SHOULD LOSE THEIR HOME!! All your friend would need to do to stay is do a reverse mortgage, where the bank loans him the tax money every year to be paid back upon sale, plus interest. His house will likely continue to appreciate every year far more than the tax he is asked to pay out of his house's value. Does anyone seriously think a Downtown home will not appreciate at least 3% annually on average for the next 20 years? There's your tax and interest.

The only people who might have to sell are those who bought recently and stretched themselves thin to do it, and have no reserves to pay more tax, and neither have the equity for a reverse mortgage or do not meet the 62 age requirement. The latter is one reason I advocate the city create a lien bond system more citizen friendly than simply selling off delinquent liens.


Taking on a reverse mortgage is a big commitment though depending on the interest rate.

The better thing to do would take an adjusted average of the current market value and a tiered increasing of property taxes so that a scenario where taxes would double or triple is avoided. Simply adding more leverage to the equation isn't necessarily the best answer though it might be the only option if the city has little leeway for the reval terms.

Posted on: 2016/6/2 14:29
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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user1111 wrote:
Exactly! I have a friend who purchased a brownstone in 1978 downtown on 3rd and Erie for $38k. Once the reval happens he will no longer be able to afford the tax bill because he is now retired but I don't fell bad for him a bit, because he house is worth 1.7 million its a two family brownstone. He has been looking for a smaller house to buy up the hill (Bergen Lafayette and Greenville) and sell before the reval happens.


I know I sound like a broken record on this, but it bears repeating, NO ONE WITH MASSIVE EQUITY AND LOW INCOME SHOULD LOSE THEIR HOME!! All your friend would need to do to stay is do a reverse mortgage, where the bank loans him the tax money every year to be paid back upon sale, plus interest. His house will likely continue to appreciate every year far more than the tax he is asked to pay out of his house's value. Does anyone seriously think a Downtown home will not appreciate at least 3% annually on average for the next 20 years? There's your tax and interest.

The only people who might have to sell are those who bought recently and stretched themselves thin to do it, and have no reserves to pay more tax, and neither have the equity for a reverse mortgage or do not meet the 62 age requirement. The latter is one reason I advocate the city create a lien bond system more citizen friendly than simply selling off delinquent liens.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 20:49
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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OneSkirt wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
One question I have, is how much does an increase in property tax really hurt the affluent?

Let's say a homeowner earns $200k/year - paying NJ State and federal taxes on that. Their property tax bill doubles from $10k to $20k. Isn't most or all of that deductible on their tax returns?

Any tax experts out there?



The only people it "hurts" are those who are middle & lower class who have owned homes for many years/decades (bought at cheaper values, passed down through families) in areas that have boomed, like dtjc, and now will get a much higher tax bill. These are the people who may face issues of not being able to afford to keep their homes. The flip side of that is that they could chose to sell and reap the profit of the higher value (but yes, that is a version of people losing their homes, though they would get money for that, not a total lose at all.)

Not saying these people don't matter, just answering the question.


Exactly! I have a friend who purchased a brownstone in 1978 downtown on 3rd and Erie for $38k. Once the reval happens he will no longer be able to afford the tax bill because he is now retired but I don't fell bad for him a bit, because he house is worth 1.7 million its a two family brownstone. He has been looking for a smaller house to buy up the hill (Bergen Lafayette and Greenville) and sell before the reval happens.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 19:20
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:
I don't believe property taxes are completely deductible - only mortgage interest.


You can most certainly deduct all of your property taxes (Schedule A, line 7) but the deduction could be limited if both your income and deductions are high, in which case you will likely get hit with the AMT.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 19:20
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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dtjcview wrote:
One question I have, is how much does an increase in property tax really hurt the affluent?

Let's say a homeowner earns $200k/year - paying NJ State and federal taxes on that. Their property tax bill doubles from $10k to $20k. Isn't most or all of that deductible on their tax returns?

Any tax experts out there?


I wish it was so cut and dry, but property taxes feeds into AMT which starts being an issue at those levels. Interest deductions also get limited but I don't recall at what amounts. Additionally NJ only allows 10k deduction of property taxes on your state income tax return.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 19:20
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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dtjcview wrote:
One question I have, is how much does an increase in property tax really hurt the affluent?

Let's say a homeowner earns $200k/year - paying NJ State and federal taxes on that. Their property tax bill doubles from $10k to $20k. Isn't most or all of that deductible on their tax returns?

Any tax experts out there?


Yes, and no. Of course, if you itemize in your federal tax returns, you can *try* to deduct your property taxes, but that deduction can be limited (or, eliminated altogether) if you get hit with the Alternative Minimum Tax. For individuals with high salaries (say, over ~200K, but thankfully now indexed for inflation, since 2013) and lots of deductions, the AMT could kick in and it affects/limits your allowable deductions. Paying the AMT sucks, and if you are carrying a high mortgage and are paying high real estate taxes, you will likely get hit with it.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 19:18
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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I don't believe property taxes are completely deductible - only mortgage interest.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 19:11
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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dtjcview wrote:
One question I have, is how much does an increase in property tax really hurt the affluent?

Let's say a homeowner earns $200k/year - paying NJ State and federal taxes on that. Their property tax bill doubles from $10k to $20k. Isn't most or all of that deductible on their tax returns?

Any tax experts out there?



The only people it "hurts" are those who are middle & lower class who have owned homes for many years/decades (bought at cheaper values, passed down through families) in areas that have boomed, like dtjc, and now will get a much higher tax bill. These are the people who may face issues of not being able to afford to keep their homes. The flip side of that is that they could chose to sell and reap the profit of the higher value (but yes, that is a version of people losing their homes, though they would get money for that, not a total lose at all.)

Not saying these people don't matter, just answering the question.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 19:11
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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One question I have, is how much does an increase in property tax really hurt the affluent?

Let's say a homeowner earns $200k/year - paying NJ State and federal taxes on that. Their property tax bill doubles from $10k to $20k. Isn't most or all of that deductible on their tax returns?

Any tax experts out there?

Posted on: 2016/6/1 18:52
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:
In regards to the CivicJC article the reason why there should be a reval is to promote tax fairness and alleviate higher burdens currently being paid by residents in areas such as Greenville.

My point was that there are other ways of accomplishing this without making up for lost revenues by shifting the burden to dtjc which has seem arguably bubble RE conditions.

If the market corrects after the reval then those areas which will see drops in taxes now will be pissed next time because they will most likely see a corresponding increase.


All the more reason why revals should happen like clockwork rather than only after a political deathmatch.

Webmaster & DanL, I have no problem with deletions to keep a thread from being hijacked, but please also apply them to the repeated hijacker herself, like post #8. There has been no reval discussion that Yvonne has not attempted to muddy the waters and confuse people by injecting the abatement issue where it has no relevance.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 18:13
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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In regards to the CivicJC article the reason why there should be a reval is to promote tax fairness and alleviate higher burdens currently being paid by residents in areas such as Greenville.

My point was that there are other ways of accomplishing this without making up for lost revenues by shifting the burden to dtjc which has seem arguably bubble RE conditions.

If the market corrects after the reval then those areas which will see drops in taxes now will be pissed next time because they will most likely see a corresponding increase.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 16:24
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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thor800 wrote:
downtown shouldn't bear the tax burden for the whole city.

how many public schools are there compared to the rest of the city ? how much of the city's efforts go towards roads / maintenance / parks etc whatever the city uses the tax revenues for.

a small section compared to the rest of the city has experienced massive appreciation due to foreign investment and speculation yet doesn't use nearly the same public resources. waterfront PILOTS being excluded have helped drive prices up also in brownstone areas yet aren't being included in the total market value.

if the city really wants to promote fairness, it should allow homeowners with over assessed properties a fair appeal process to lower taxes, rather than making certain owner's taxes double. This in itself has the potential for a ripple affect that could drive prices down even further in those areas already complaining.


You sure keep purposefully ignoring facts and choose instead to play up refuted arguments while fear mongering.

The reval, at its basic, is a legal requirement.

Additionally, and much to your chagrin, properties taxes everywhere are always assessed based on a rate applied to property valuations, not based on theoretical use of services, or resources. This is no different than most other taxes: you don't get to opt out of school taxes because you don't have kids, just like you don't get to opt out of taxes that go towards Pentagon spending just because you don't believe in war.

Those who claim they shouldn't be punished because their properties have appreciated are making a losing argument. The last part of your post makes absolutely zero sense: how do you propose that over assessed properties tax levy be reduced without making up revenue elsewhere?? Ultimately, that is what the reval will do: bring back all properties into an equal, level playing field of taxation, where everyone is being assessed the same rate.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 15:55
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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downtown shouldn't bear the tax burden for the whole city.

how many public schools are there compared to the rest of the city ? how much of the city's efforts go towards roads / maintenance / parks etc whatever the city uses the tax revenues for.

a small section compared to the rest of the city has experienced massive appreciation due to foreign investment and speculation yet doesn't use nearly the same public resources. waterfront PILOTS being excluded have helped drive prices up also in brownstone areas yet aren't being included in the total market value.

if the city really wants to promote fairness, it should allow homeowners with over assessed properties a fair appeal process to lower taxes, rather than making certain owner's taxes double. This in itself has the potential for a ripple affect that could drive prices down even further in those areas already complaining.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 14:43
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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Thanks for this effort. It shows real data and proves the necessity of a revaluation.

Posted on: 2016/6/1 11:22
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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the link explains what the map includes in detail, the methodology and data -2015 sales and Class: 2, Residential Property (1-4 Family), nothing more, nothing less.

this info is about the map, and this discussion thread is intended to focus on the map.

I will ask the webmaster to please keep comments focused on the issue at hand.


Posted on: 2016/6/1 1:55
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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Quote:

dr_nick_riviera wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
$2.8 billion in assessment is missing from this map, that is the tax abated properties that are getting a free ride from taxpayers. $2.8 billion is nearly 1/3 of JC.


Why don't you shut up and code up a better map yourself then? Someone devoted time to put together a valuable tool to try and help educate others. If you don't like it, come up with something better yourself.


Not just that, it's that her hobbyhorse, and Monroe's, have nothing at all to do with the reval. Abatements may be a topic for discussion, but are irrelevant to the discussion of making the properties already IN the tax base fairly assessed. And she's factually incorrect about the "free ride", many PILOT's far exceed the low tax paid by the green properties.

Posted on: 2016/5/31 23:26
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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My whole neighborhood is red. This is pathetic.

Posted on: 2016/5/31 22:48
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Re: Civic JC and Civic Parent Partner on Interactive Map to Compare Property Sales to Assessed Values
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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
$2.8 billion in assessment is missing from this map, that is the tax abated properties that are getting a free ride from taxpayers. $2.8 billion is nearly 1/3 of JC.


Why don't you shut up and code up a better map yourself then? Someone devoted time to put together a valuable tool to try and help educate others. If you don't like it, come up with something better yourself.

Posted on: 2016/5/31 22:19
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