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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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JCMan8 wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
Pebble, please take two seconds to learn how tenure works before commenting. At the very least try glancing at the article before offering a laughably uninformed opinion.

"The lawsuit contended that bad teachers are so heavily protected by tenure laws that they are almost impossible to fire."

This is what the judge agreed with after being presented with the evidence.

"Los Angeles School Superintendent John Deasy testified that it can take over two years on average ? and sometimes as long as 10 ? to fire an incompetent tenured teacher. The cost of doing so, he said, can run from $250,000 to $450,000."

In striking down several laws regarding tenure, seniority and other protections, the judge said the evidence at the trial showed the harm inflicted on students by incompetent teachers.

"The evidence is compelling," he said. "Indeed, it shocks the conscience."

"A laughably uninformed opinion"... is not a statement based in any way on facts.

I know enough teachers and know how tenure works. There will always be bad hires that end up through the cracks. However, the overall system protects the good teachers from wrongful termination.

Having seen it firsthand protect someone from what was utterly disgusting, I can't fathom getting rid of the protection. Then again, I'm not someone that argues they make a lot of money or have easy jobs.


You may think you know how tenure works because you "know enough teachers" but your statements indicate you have no clue.

The facts were just quoted. Right there in the quote, go look. They were presented to the judge, including testimony from the LA Superintendent on this exact issue. Forgive me if I trust his word over an anonymous Internet commenter with no experience in the field.

As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Luckily California reviewed the facts and came to the right conclusion. Hopefully New Jersey is next.

I have no friends in California. I know NJ. I know that tenure saved more than one person I know from wrongful termination.

You can quote a judge talking about a different area all you want. The reality is that your desire for tenure removal is part of an overall desire to remove unions. For the sake of it, let's call it bias hackery.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 21:06
Dos A Cero
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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Monroe wrote:
The statistic of tenured teachers being fired for poor performance (at least in NJ) is amazingly low. I don't have the number at hand, but as I recall it's less than 10/year.

I'd like to see rolling contracts, maybe 3-5 years at a shot, so they can have a chance to improve if put on warning.

Are the numbers low because administrators are too lazy to go through a hiring process or are they low because there are not that many teachers performing poorly?

Saying that people aren't getting fired without any qualification as to why is a bit silly.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 21:04
Dos A Cero
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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Pebble wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Pebble, please take two seconds to learn how tenure works before commenting. At the very least try glancing at the article before offering a laughably uninformed opinion.

"The lawsuit contended that bad teachers are so heavily protected by tenure laws that they are almost impossible to fire."

This is what the judge agreed with after being presented with the evidence.

"Los Angeles School Superintendent John Deasy testified that it can take over two years on average ? and sometimes as long as 10 ? to fire an incompetent tenured teacher. The cost of doing so, he said, can run from $250,000 to $450,000."

In striking down several laws regarding tenure, seniority and other protections, the judge said the evidence at the trial showed the harm inflicted on students by incompetent teachers.

"The evidence is compelling," he said. "Indeed, it shocks the conscience."

"A laughably uninformed opinion"... is not a statement based in any way on facts.

I know enough teachers and know how tenure works. There will always be bad hires that end up through the cracks. However, the overall system protects the good teachers from wrongful termination.

Having seen it firsthand protect someone from what was utterly disgusting, I can't fathom getting rid of the protection. Then again, I'm not someone that argues they make a lot of money or have easy jobs.


You may think you know how tenure works because you "know enough teachers" but your statements indicate you have no clue.

The facts were just quoted. Right there in the quote, go look. They were presented to the judge, including testimony from the LA Superintendent on this exact issue. Forgive me if I trust his word over an anonymous Internet commenter with no experience in the field.

As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Luckily California reviewed the facts and came to the right conclusion. Hopefully New Jersey is next.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 21:03
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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The statistic of tenured teachers being fired for poor performance (at least in NJ) is amazingly low. I don't have the number at hand, but as I recall it's less than 10/year.

I'd like to see rolling contracts, maybe 3-5 years at a shot, so they can have a chance to improve if put on warning.


Posted on: 2014/6/10 20:55
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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JCMan8 wrote:
Pebble, please take two seconds to learn how tenure works before commenting. At the very least try glancing at the article before offering a laughably uninformed opinion.

"The lawsuit contended that bad teachers are so heavily protected by tenure laws that they are almost impossible to fire."

This is what the judge agreed with after being presented with the evidence.

"Los Angeles School Superintendent John Deasy testified that it can take over two years on average ? and sometimes as long as 10 ? to fire an incompetent tenured teacher. The cost of doing so, he said, can run from $250,000 to $450,000."

In striking down several laws regarding tenure, seniority and other protections, the judge said the evidence at the trial showed the harm inflicted on students by incompetent teachers.

"The evidence is compelling," he said. "Indeed, it shocks the conscience."

"A laughably uninformed opinion"... is not a statement based in any way on facts.

I know enough teachers and know how tenure works. There will always be bad hires that end up through the cracks. However, the overall system protects the good teachers from wrongful termination.

Having seen it firsthand protect someone from what was utterly disgusting, I can't fathom getting rid of the protection. Then again, I'm not someone that argues they make a lot of money or have easy jobs.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 20:55
Dos A Cero
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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Pebble, please take two seconds to learn how tenure works before commenting. At the very least try glancing at the article before offering a laughably uninformed opinion.

"The lawsuit contended that bad teachers are so heavily protected by tenure laws that they are almost impossible to fire."

This is what the judge agreed with after being presented with the evidence.

"Los Angeles School Superintendent John Deasy testified that it can take over two years on average ? and sometimes as long as 10 ? to fire an incompetent tenured teacher. The cost of doing so, he said, can run from $250,000 to $450,000."

"In striking down several laws regarding tenure, seniority and other protections, the judge said the evidence at the trial showed the harm inflicted on students by incompetent teachers."

"The evidence is compelling," he said. "Indeed, it shocks the conscience."

So there you have it. The truth, not nonsense. Hopefully students bring suit in New Jersey as well.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 20:49
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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brewster wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
Thank God. New Jersey, you're next!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ca ... her-job-security-24070436

Why are you thankful for this? Do you think that nobody should have any job security or that the education of our future should be left up to those making the least money.

Some things are just beyond stupid.


Where's your argument as to why teachers, out of all the many jobs in our economy, should be unfireable? Everybody else I know is accountable for the job they do. And at least around here, they make plenty of money for the hours and vacations they get. Sure, there are places in the crappy parts of the USA where they get $40k, but that doesn't account the whining around here. I know plenty of professionals with masters and 25 years experience that don't come closer to a NJ PS teacher with that seniority, and nowhere near the bennies.

Teachers are not unfireable with tenure. Tenure only requires that the firing is justifiable. This is what people don?t understand.

Median salary for a teacher is less than $58k. It isn?t as low as $40k, but it?s hardly a great salary with ?awesome bennys.?

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Thank God. New Jersey, you're next!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ca ... her-job-security-24070436

Why are you thankful for this? Do you think that nobody should have any job security or that the education of our future should be left up to those making the least money.

Some things are just beyond stupid.


Oh Pebble, I figured you'd chime in with typical partisan demagoguery with no basis in logic or common sense.

Nobody said teachers shouldn't have any job security. But the current system of tenure which provides ABSOLUTE job security is unconstitutional. In fact, had you bothered to inform yourself, you'd see that in California (like here), it is next to impossible to remove terrible tenured teachers. Which hurts our students.

So much that California found that the tenure system is unconstitutional because it violates the students' constitutional rights of an equal opportunity to receive a decent education.

Teachers can be like the rest of us and get job security based on their ability to do their job. Not become essential monarchs that cannot be deposed.

If you understand tenure, which you clearly don?t, you?ll understand that it is perfectly reasonable to fire a teacher for poor performance.

Do you know what will hurt our students? The fact that there are inexperienced, possibly poor, teachers who will replace the experienced at a cheaper rate all due to the cry over salaries.

I?ve seen some truly monstrous things done to teachers over the years. Be it false accusations of sexual abuse, cries of racism, claims of unfair treatment. The union and the tenure system allow for a fair and equitable process to play out before people rush to judgment on the whims of a teenager. For one day, just one, I'd love to see you or any of the rest of the teacher haters out there live though one day of a false accusation like that.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 20:35
Dos A Cero
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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Quote:

Pebble wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Thank God. New Jersey, you're next!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ca ... her-job-security-24070436

Why are you thankful for this? Do you think that nobody should have any job security or that the education of our future should be left up to those making the least money.

Some things are just beyond stupid.


Oh Pebble, I figured you'd chime in with typical partisan demagoguery with no basis in logic or common sense.

Nobody said teachers shouldn't have any job security. But the current system of tenure which provides ABSOLUTE job security is unconstitutional. In fact, had you bothered to inform yourself, you'd see that in California (like here), it is next to impossible to remove terrible tenured teachers. Which hurts our students.

So much that California found that the tenure system is unconstitutional because it violates the students' constitutional rights of an equal opportunity to receive a decent education.

Teachers can be like the rest of us and get job security based on their ability to do their job. Not become essential monarchs that cannot be deposed.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 20:23
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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Pebble wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Thank God. New Jersey, you're next!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ca ... her-job-security-24070436

Why are you thankful for this? Do you think that nobody should have any job security or that the education of our future should be left up to those making the least money.

Some things are just beyond stupid.


Where's your argument as to why teachers, out of all the many jobs in our economy, should be unfireable? Everybody else I know is accountable for the job they do. And at least around here, they make plenty of money for the hours and vacations they get. Sure, there are places in the crappy parts of the USA where they get $40k, but that doesn't account the whining around here. I know plenty of professionals with masters and 25 years experience that don't come closer to a NJ PS teacher with that seniority, and nowhere near the bennies.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 20:23
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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This is probably the one thing Christie could get right and that is a BIG maybe.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 19:54
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Re: California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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JCMan8 wrote:
Thank God. New Jersey, you're next!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ca ... her-job-security-24070436

Why are you thankful for this? Do you think that nobody should have any job security or that the education of our future should be left up to those making the least money.

Some things are just beyond stupid.

Posted on: 2014/6/10 19:50
Dos A Cero
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California Teacher Tenure Laws Ruled Unconstitutional
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Posted on: 2014/6/10 19:05
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