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Re: Liberty State Park Incident
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Home away from home
 
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It's the soldier, not the reporter
who has given us freedom of the press. It's the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It's the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves under the flag and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who gives the protestor the right to burn the flag. ~~ Father Dennis Edward O'Brien Happy Day After Veteran's Day.
Posted on: 2009/11/12 22:31
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Home away from home
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"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." Ben Franklin
Posted on: 2009/11/12 22:05
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Home away from home
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Quote:
"I fought the law and I won! -Jello Biafra (Dead Kennedys)
Posted on: 2009/11/12 22:04
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As hard to handle as chopsticks.
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Home away from home
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"I fought the law and the law won."
Sonny Curtis. And Bobby Fuller. And Joe Strummer.
Posted on: 2009/11/12 21:55
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Home away from home
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?I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.?
- Robert A. Heinlein Quote:
Posted on: 2009/11/12 21:48
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Newbie
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My parents always taught be to obey the law. No alcohol is allowed in NJ state parks, so I never bring or consume alcohol in any NJ state park.
Posted on: 2009/11/12 21:28
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Home away from home
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I don't know if it's the same cop but I have also had a similar experience with overly agressive cops at LSP on the 4th of July last year. I had a very similar situation as yours having a 4th of July bbq with friends. We brown bagged all the beer. The cops were watching us all afternoon waiting for someone to forget to conceal thier beer. Sure enough they came over and asked us where the beer came from. I was very humble and appologetic to the cops. They agreed to let us remove the alchol from the park and my brother would have to leave and not come back. As we were removing alchol from the park one of my friends at the bbq made a joke to me about something that was unrelated. And the cop tore me new asshole saying how dare I disrespect him by laughing at him in front of the group and he gave us a break by not throwing us out of the park. I said I'm really sorry officer I wasn't laughing at you my friend made a joke about something else. He didn't believe me and continued to berate me saying stuff like you are very arrogant miss and if I see you drinking in this park again I will have you arrested. After he left I was sitting there thinking what did I say to make him so mad? I was sorry, didn't argue about fines or anything. We weren't out of control and everyone cooperated.
I also agree that the open container laws are arcane and pointless. We do live in a police state and it has been for a long time. I feel theose laws should only be used in extreme cases where people are getting rowdy. And for those of you that believe that "brown bagging" it gives you a pass on the law, that is not true. You can get a ticket for brown bagging alcohol, but the cop has to prove that it is alcohol for them to issue a ticket.
Posted on: 2009/11/12 21:15
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Not too shy to talk
 
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Sorry Downtown Regular and no offense to any family, friends or acquaintances you may have at the NPS but looking at these NATIONAL statistics... I think that a JCPD or NYPD officer's job is slightly more dangerous. But that is just me....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ ... 2/28/GR2008022800363.html And again, I was not talking about the NPS; I was talking SPECIFICALLY about the LSP officers. Is an NPS officer in danger.. in some circumstances, possibly, but to compare the risk to their safety as equal to someone who works on an urban police force is frankly disrespectful.
Posted on: 2009/11/12 20:21
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Home away from home
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Quote:
yes i was just amazed how stupid some people are. No, of course you can have alcohol at parties in YOUR HOME, but in a public park during a children's party? I know many people tend to not have any kind of alcohol in children's parties even at home, just to avoid any potential trouble in case there are 1 or 2 uptight parents that found out later and reports them to the cops etc..
Posted on: 2009/11/12 3:28
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Home away from home
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The term breaking the law is not vague. What the hell is wrong with you?
You have open cans of alcohol in a public park next to kids in a children's party, then you flat out lied to the cops by your own admission. And you are upset? You should be thanking the cops they didnt arrest you on the spot, if they really wanted to be assholes, they could do just that and it's perfectly legal. Lying to cops is also a crime (it's a misdemeanor in ny, probably same in nj). The cop actually let you off easy with just a ticket and warning. And it's probably not a wise idea to admit in a public forum you lied to the cops, i doubt there are many morons having children party in liberty state park with open cans of alcohol next to the kids for all to see, so it's not hard for them to figure out who it is.... Quote:
Posted on: 2009/11/12 3:25
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Home away from home
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Quote:
I know it is prohibited, didnt say otherwise. My point is that lots of drinking occurs there and the Park is a delight. Quote:
I'm not mixing opinion with fact. It may be a legal crime, but it's not a real crime. Quote: However, the City of New York and the State of New Jersey have laws that indicate that drinking alcohol in public parks is prohibited. So, if someone is drinking alcohol in a public, they have indeed committed a crime. Correct. I'm not sure why you're making this point because I never said otherwise. Quote: And indeed deserve to be prosecuted. Deserve? Why? Simply because it's a law? There have been poor laws in the past and there will be poor laws in the future. This is one of them. Quote: Until, or if, the laws change, people need to adhere to them. There can be consequences to not following dumb laws, sure. Again, that wasn't my point. Quote: I have no issue with drinking being prohibited if the safety of the public is at mind. I don't feel like my civil rights have been violated or personal freedoms infringed upon, and I value both just as equally as you do. This reminds me of when Bush said he abandoned free market principles in order to save the free market. People die of drinking in general, we should ban that. Oh wait, we did and it did not work out well. Quote: Let me ask you a question: would you rather than officers had to spend their time dealing with drunk and disorderly incidents and drunk driving incidents in addition to or instead of other emergencies and incidents? Don't you think the officers can focus their energy on, as you call it, real crimes then? I rather them spend time on other actual crimes/emergencies than ticket people SIMPLY for drinking. Drinking in and of itself is not a real crime. I'm harming no one by simply drinking, therefore, you have no real right to prevent me from doing so. Quote: And here is a fact. Where I work, drinking was allowed in a certain area and there were daily numerous incidents. After alcohol was banned, the incidents dropped by 95%. Coincidence? If it was a fact, you'd have the hard data. I doubt you do, so it's more like anecdotal evidence.
Posted on: 2009/11/12 2:43
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Dirt, Drinking in NYC parks is also prohibited. If the Parks Enforcement Patrol officers do not ticket the violators, that is their discretion. You are mixing your opinion with fact. Your opinion is that drinking alcohol in public in and of itself is not a crime. You know what? I agree. However, the City of New York and the State of New Jersey have laws that indicate that drinking alcohol in public parks is prohibited. So, if someone is drinking alcohol in a public, they have indeed committed a crime. And indeed deserve to be prosecuted. Until, or if, the laws change, people need to adhere to them. I have no issue with drinking being prohibited if the safety of the public is at mind. I don't feel like my civil rights have been violated or personal freedoms infringed upon, and I value both just as equally as you do. Let me ask you a question: would you rather than officers had to spend their time dealing with drunk and disorderly incidents and drunk driving incidents in addition to or instead of other emergencies and incidents? Don't you think the officers can focus their energy on, as you call it, real crimes then? And here is a fact. Where I work, drinking was allowed in a certain area and there were daily numerous incidents. After alcohol was banned, the incidents dropped by 95%. Coincidence?
Posted on: 2009/11/12 1:05
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Home away from home
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Like somebody stated before, Gatorade bottle, Solo cup, whatever, people wanna drink in public they're gonna. Won't even deny it, I'm guilty of it myself.
But I think it has a lot to do with it being state property and local government trying to cover their asses; god forbid something were to happen, and the family of someone injured tried suing the state over negligent law enforcement or whatever. The government doesn't wanna deal with that.
Posted on: 2009/11/12 0:14
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As hard to handle as chopsticks.
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Home away from home
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I'd rather stop people being when they are actually committing a crime rather than when they aren't, but hey, that's just me. I just value civil rights and personal freedom (when they don't violate anyone else, of course). Again, Central Park has a ton of drinking on a nice day, and it absolutely works. If there's a problem, deal with it then, not before.
Posted on: 2009/11/12 0:01
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Home away from home
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It's a law placed into affect as a precautionary step; better to play it safe than be sorry, right?
Posted on: 2009/11/11 23:59
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As hard to handle as chopsticks.
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Home away from home
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First, have you ever been to Central Park during a nice weekend day? 1) If there IS disorderly conduct, then prosecute it. That's fine. 2) If there IS drinking and riving, then prosecute it. Again, drinking in and of itself in public is NOT a real crime. No one is being violated by this action alone. Can things happen after the drinking? Sure, but that doesn't mean drinking itself is criminal. Let's prosecute people for actual crimes, not pre-crimes. This isn't and shouldn't be Minority Report.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 23:56
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Newbie
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Thank you woodstock1
I'm only protesting the officer's behaviour. I happilly paid the ticket, as happily as i complied to the officer and removed the beer. Once again i was asking people here, if they had similar experience and reminding everyone that we need to stand up to authority when it abuses its power. OP
Posted on: 2009/11/11 23:14
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Home away from home
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After visiting several countries in Europe this past summer and noticing that there are virtually no restrictions on the public consumption of alcohol, and that it's not total riotous anarchy over there, I realized that one of two things has to be correct.
either: 1: Europeans are generally better behaved than Americans and can be trusted to drink in public without causing trouble -or- 2: The rampant prohibition of public alcohol consumption in the US is unnecessary, and if anything has a net negative impact on our quality of life. In any case, I've done plenty of drinking in public parks - if you use a beer huggie or other method of concealment, behave yourself, and generally keep things discrete, the cops feel like they can get away with pretending they didn't see it.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 21:40
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Home away from home
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Quote:
My post was about NJ State Park Police in general and not the LSP officers alone. I have worked with numerous individuals from various local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies, and NJ State Park Police are indeed as much real law enforcement officers as any other officer required to wear a bullet proof vest and carry a weapon. To think otherwise is an insult to these individuals putting their lives on the line for us every day. The fact that they do not work in the city does not make their jobs any less dangerous than an officer that does work in a city.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 21:26
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Not too shy to talk
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Downtown Regular... while I understand your point that the OP appears to contesting his ticket, albeit in I think a subtle manner, I have to disagree with you on whether State Park Police are "real police". While I am sure that they do provide many services at similar levels to regular police. You certainly cannot claim that the LSP park police are in life threatening situations on an almost daily basis. I liken these types of law enforcers to the the local police force I grew up with in suburbia. No real trouble on the job to deal with....mostly speeding tickets, drunken disorderlies, etc. I have many friends that work in NYPD, NYFD, etc.; I think all of them would consider a gig at the LSP a "walk in the park" as opposed to their daily routines.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 21:02
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Home away from home
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Quote:
The OP's primary contention is indeed with the purported overzealousness of the officer. However, the OP is protesting the ticket albeit not so openly. Quote: hamlet wrote: and Quote: hamlet wrote: and Quote: hamlet wrote: The police indeed concentrated on a criminal (legal sense) in violation of the no alcohol in state parks law. Why even write any of the above if the person didn't feel wronged by getting a ticket? Also, implying the State Park Police are not real police officers is quite the disparaging remark unto itself. They go through the same amount of training as State Troopers, and statewide do quite a lot of work going above and beyond regular police work. They are indeed real police officers. You may have not meant to come across that way, but that is how I read it.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 20:51
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Not too shy to talk
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The majority of you, as is common on these boards, are missing the point. The OP is not protesting the ticket just the manner in which it was dealt. I would say that the state park police seems to be decent/fair guys, that said however, there are 1 or 2 major a**holes. They probably just hate their lives or they are too cowardly to take a real police job at the JCPD and it makes them feel like "big men" to impose their "authority" on us 20 and 30 something year olds and our families. Understand that the law was broken and they certainly had a right to be assertive in the situation but it sounds like they took it to level that was totally unnecessary given the circumstances.
Sorry this happened to you, it is unfortunate that because they (or anyone for that matter) are wearing a badge, they feel it gives them a license to be rude, arrogant and condescending, instead of calm, steady and even-keeled. The latter traits being those that are better served to diffuse arguments and tension.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 20:24
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Just can't stay away
 
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Quote:
Viva la revolution! If there's no anthem associated with The Cause yet, I'd suggest you rally against oppression to the tune of the Beastie Boys' Fight for Your Right (to Party) 
Posted on: 2009/11/11 19:28
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Home away from home
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The Y - Generation
Y should I conform to any regulation Y should I conform to any community values of social behavior Y can't I be selfish and do as I please The X and Y generation are proving to be a self rightous, empathy free group of doing as they please, exempt of any law with a fccuk you attitude. Yes, I know I'm generalizing.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 19:24
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Home away from home
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I'll bet my house that if you happened to be in the park and you saw a group of " uneducated people" drinking a twelve pack of colt 45 , you would be the first one to call the police. Having a Master's Degree does not entitle you to drink in a park. And I thought most "educated" people knew that ignorance of the law is not an excuse. " A Prison State" .......................grow up.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 19:13
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Home away from home
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Quote:
What better way to bring civility back than to obey the law and take responsibility for your actions (instead of making excuses about them).
Posted on: 2009/11/11 18:35
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Just can't stay away
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Did you ever hear of using the old red solo cup trick? I've used it many times and it has never failed me.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 18:30
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Home away from home
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Case law sets the precedent that any offense is arrestable. It is up to individual officer whether or not to make the arrest. I recall a case in which a woman was arrested and jailed for speeding. I believe her lawyer tried to argue that she was illegally detained, but the judge dismissed the case.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 18:26
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Home away from home
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> As I have stated earlier, he could have arrested your friend.
At the risk of having my post deleted for irrelevance by our friendly overlord... What constitutes an arrestable offence in NJ? Robin.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 18:18
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Home away from home
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Feeling that you live in a police state because you friend was issued a ticket for a violation is a stretch. Look some days you win the battle and some days you don't. The officer chose to write the ticket. He didn't have to, but that is what is called officer's discretion. It's like when you are caught speeding. The officer may choose to write you a ticket. Some days you may get one, some days you may not. As I have stated earlier, he could have arrested your friend. Running all of your identification is for officer and public safety. The officer does not know that you are well educated and well mannered individuals. He does not know if there is someone among you with a warrant or penchant for violent acts. This is not being part of a police state either. And generalizing all park police officers (or are you saying all law enforcement even) as below intelligence individuals is frankly unfair. Law enforcement is one of the hardest jobs to perform, and unless you have prior law enforcement experience, please refrain from such insulting remarks. That is just as disrespectful of the profession as your sense of the purported disrespect by the officer issuing the ticket.
Posted on: 2009/11/11 18:13
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- Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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