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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Thanks for the support FatAssBike (and others).

I hope those who have attacked me and my business will stop and think for a moment how they'd feel about the issue if they owned a business and were in my shoes or those of Ibby's, or those of the Little Sandwich Shop. I'd dare say that they'd be "whining" too. Unfairness is unfairness and I'm sorry that some folks can't see that.

I'm going to sign off now because being a human pinata is starting to wear me down. I've got pizza to deliver.

Best to all.
Aaron


Don't let the haters get you down. Keep in mind that this is the local Internet - a great place for people to complain about items they may know little about.

Bottom line - restaurants provide a lot more societal good for a community than do food carts (or temporary food vendors). That doesn't mean that food carts don't have a place, but it does mean that there should be some balance.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 22:55
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Thanks for the support FatAssBike (and others).

I hope those who have attacked me and my business will stop and think for a moment how they'd feel about the issue if they owned a business and were in my shoes or those of Ibby's, or those of the Little Sandwich Shop. I'd dare say that they'd be "whining" too. Unfairness is unfairness and I'm sorry that some folks can't see that.

I'm going to sign off now because being a human pinata is starting to wear me down. I've got pizza to deliver.

Best to all.
Aaron

Posted on: 2014/10/9 22:48
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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JC needs to update their Fair Trading Policy (if they have one) with clear conditions where and when "Farmers Markets" and even "Food Vans" can operate from.

These types of "pop-up" businesses need an area to operate away from existing bricks and mortar businesses to mitigate an obvious unfair playing field to operate and can easily / unfairly "fold up their tents" seasonally or when consumer trends change.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 22:24
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Wow guys. Let me give you our story. Two Boots JC is not a franchise. I am friends with the founder who is based in NYC. I thought JC should have one. With his help, I opened Two Boots JC two years ago. It's completely independent. My wife and I own it. I've lived in JC since 1997. Did you read my post about how much we're involved in the community? I'm happy to answer any other questions.


First I will say I love the pizza, but you are a large business.

You have multiple locations in the NY metro area including CITI Field. You all have similar items on all your menus. It may not be a franchise that I cannot go down to Seaside and open a location, but you have the backing of multiple storefronts.


So what? That may just mean more operating costs, if the others are not profitable. Let's not act like this is a Wal-mart situation.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 22:21
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Wow guys. Let me give you our story. Two Boots JC is not a franchise. I am friends with the founder who is based in NYC. I thought JC should have one. With his help, I opened Two Boots JC two years ago. It's completely independent. My wife and I own it. I've lived in JC since 1997. Did you read my post about how much we're involved in the community? I'm happy to answer any other questions.


First I will say I love the pizza, but you are a large business.

You have multiple locations in the NY metro area including CITI Field. You all have similar items on all your menus. It may not be a franchise that I cannot go down to Seaside and open a location, but you have the backing of multiple storefronts.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 22:08
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Thanks for reading. Of course, I disagree with every point you made. Here's my analogy. You don't get orchestra seats for the price of standing room. That's pretty much the way our capitalist system works (whether you're on the left or right politically). The farmer's market completely subverts that and provides a subsidy to outside, non brick and mortar businesses by offering them below market rent. It's bad economics and definitely unfair to those of us who pay market rates. If you disagree with these tenets of a market economy, you might want to try living in Venezuela.

And, by the way, I think Ibby's is fantastic.


First off, I'm a big fan of Two Boots. Thanks for bringing great pizza to JC. I also appreciate that you have come here to take the time to intelligently and politely express your thoughts, even at the risk of some people holding that against you. You seem to be exactly the kind of thoughtful and community-driven person that we are lucky to have running a business in Jersey City.

I want to mention that the sort of capitalist system you are describing gets a bit murky when dealing with non-market based costs and factors. You mentioned, for example, that you are subject to government-imposed fees and taxes which the Farmers Market vendors aren't required to pay (or they pay substantially less I suppose). It's a huge mistake to say that it's somehow more true to capitalism to prevent the Farmers Market vendors from conducting business. In fact, the market solution would be to roll back the fees and taxes you are required to pay. Of course, hell would sooner freeze over before that would happen. So you're stuck with them.

Another complicating factor is that the vendors are operating on public land. Who knows, but there is a decent chance that brick and mortar restaurants would buy that land up under a market-based system in which the land was privately held. Or, maybe the owner of the land in that area would come to some sort of arrangement with nearby restaurants to block out the pop-up competition. Or, maybe the going market rate to use the space for the pop-ups would be much higher. These things are impossible to predict for sure because they happen naturally in a market based system--which again is not what is really in play here.

Another thing to consider is that if the pop-ups could freely operate under privately negotiated license by private land-holders (rather than Jersey City's arbitrarily decided prices and conditions), that might push down the price of rent due to the competition. When you have artificial and ever-changing rules, that makes it more difficult for entrepreneurs like yourself to operate and make predictions. It's a crumby spot to be in for an entrepreneur like yourself.

As it stands, unfortunately, the decision to permit or ban the pop-ups on public areas will be made arbitrarily and artificially based on things like who screams the loudest, who has the most political clout or who can influence government officials (using legal and illegal means). That's a shame, but it's the reality of dealing with government.

I am only pointing these considerations out because you have emphasized how the market and capitalism fit into the case you have stated. As much as I like the farmer's market (on the rare occasion I get home early enough to check it out), I sympathize with the points you are making.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 21:47
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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I went to the Farmer's Market in Philadelphia during the summer, it was packed. No prepared food was sold except bread. I agree with brick and mortar owners, it is unfair competition.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 21:45
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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kencares wrote:
Bistro only gets 2.5 stars on yelp:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-bistro-at ... y-city?sort_by=rating_asc

Boots does better with 3.5, but still has its share of problems:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/two-boots-jersey-city-2?sort_by=rating_asc

maybe they should both focus more on customer satisfaction and less on their competitors.


This is a valid point:
Mordi's Schnitzel - 4.5 stars: http://www.yelp.com/biz/mordis-schnitzel-truck-jersey-city
Dark Side of the Moo - 4.5 stars: http://www.yelp.com/biz/dark-side-of-the-moo-hoboken
Stella's Empanada's (albeit the Kearny restaurant)- 4.5 stars: http://www.yelp.com/biz/stellas-empanadas-kearny

Doesn't this tell the brick and mortar guys everything they need to know? Slowly but surely, JC is growing out of generic bland food destinations. The activity in this blog, the success of the Hamilton Park BBQ Fest, the JC Project, etc are all testament to that.

If the costs of brick and mortar are too high that it stifles creativity, then at some point those costs will have to come down when more food establishments take to food stands/trucks. It's all supply/demand at the end of the day. Neither would survive without there being demand so nobody should take their patrons for granted. Personally, having moved from Manhattan a year ago, there are still too few restaurants in JC that encourage me to visit for a second time. I will try almost anywhere once, because I dine out to get something that I cannot make myself. But I will only return for a second visit if the restaurant is offering something unique that I then crave.

I don't want to target any particular restaurants with this, but pizza (the way most places in DTJC do it) does not take very much imagination/creativity. For the increasingly health-conscious society that we live it, it's going to be an increasingly infrequent treat.



Posted on: 2014/10/9 21:38
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Two Boots just made my boycott list (and I didn't really think their food was good to start with). Quit the whining. If I want to sit and eat and be served, I EXPECT to pay more. If I'm on the go or want to sit outside and listen to some live music (Groove on Grove or JC Fridays, for example) I pay less. Well, sort of, considering that the City subsidizes those events and I pay $13,000 in annual taxes for my home. You pay more for the store, I pay more to eat there. Simple. Now quit bitching and think about how you can make your business better instead of crying about how "unfair" the world is. It's capitalism in a free market. Really pathetic effort and arguments by Two Boots...

Posted on: 2014/10/9 21:35
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
You don't get orchestra seats for the price of standing room. That's pretty much the way our capitalist system works (whether you're on the left or right politically). The farmer's market completely subverts that and provides a subsidy to outside, non brick and mortar businesses by offering them below market rent.


except that the farmer's market is, literally, standing room.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:54
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:

A little background is in order. The problem of prepared foods only became a big problem when the SID, which was set up to help its member businesses instead decided to go into competition with us in order to fill a budget hole. The easiest way to do this was to find vendors from all over New Jersey and New York who would come in and rent space at the plaza to sell their foods.



Would Two Boots and the other concerned establishments be willing to pay higher fees to the HDSID if they removed the prepared food vendors?

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:50
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Bistro only gets 2.5 stars on yelp:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-bistro-at ... y-city?sort_by=rating_asc

Boots does better with 3.5, but still has its share of problems:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/two-boots-jersey-city-2?sort_by=rating_asc

maybe they should both focus more on customer satisfaction and less on their competitors.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:42
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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user1111 wrote:
[quote]


you here that Two Boots! these ____ aint loyal!


Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:20
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
What???
The price of my rent is set by the market. The price of a space at the Grove Street Plaza isn't. Am I missing something? As I said, the vendors at the plaza are receiving a subsidized, below market rent, plain and simple.


Wait a second, your argument is invalid. If the price of a tent at grove is cheaper than a brick and mortar store, that makes perfect sense actually. The vendor provides everything except the physical space in which to operate. It's a piece of concrete. Of course it's going to cost significantly less!

Mind you, I like Two Boots and Food trucks. I'd even be in favor of letting food trucks occupy the dividing line down Newark Ave in the pedestrian plaza. I plan to fight to get that to happen too.

Sorry, but I value choice more than anything else.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:18
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
You're right. Not EVERYTHING stays in JC. Just a lot.


Really? Are you able to track every dollar? Are you able to track every dollar you spend, and the dollars that all of your employees spend? Furthermore, are you certain that the rent you pay to your landlord stays in Jersey City too?

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:15
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Could you please provide the list of the other downtown businesses you represent, so I can stop visiting them as well. This is a foolish way to stifle competition.

Do you also dislike the picnic benches in the plaza because they give some one an additional place to sit, they could *gasp* buy food from anywhere else and sit and eat it there. Those picnic benches probably don't pay taxes or rent either. They do live in JC though.

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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Hi Folks,

I couldn't resist joining in this debate. (Sometimes I think I'm crazy for taking such a prominent role on this issue but have found that most people, when they hear our points, sympathize with us and understand our position.) I hope you'll take the time to read this.

I have been the spokesperson for a group of 17 downtown businesses that includes, among others, Park and Sixth, Orale, La Conguita Barcade, Beachwood Caf?, the Little Sandwich Shop, and Ibby's Falafel. We have asked the Historic Downtown Special Improvement District, of which we are members, to end the sale of prepared foods at the farmers market. We believe that it should return to its original form which was essentially produce and other farm products sold by the actual farmers.

A little background is in order. The problem of prepared foods only became a big problem when the SID, which was set up to help its member businesses instead decided to go into competition with us in order to fill a budget hole. The easiest way to do this was to find vendors from all over New Jersey and New York who would come in and rent space at the plaza to sell their foods.

However, our problem with the SID is not your problem. The question is, even if it was run by someone else, why would it be wrong to allow the food court to continue? Let me explain.

1. The food trucks and table vendors represent predatory and unfair competition. How can I say this? It's pretty simple. When we open a restaurant we have to invest hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. We then have to pay astronomical rents to be close to Grove Plaza. We pay high taxes and fees to Jersey City. The food trucks and table vendors have none of these costs. They pay a small fee and get to parachute in during the busiest hours of the day, the dinner rush. (They can stay away during the slow times.) So, their cost advantage is huge. Imagine running a business where your competitors minimum-wage could be half of yours. That's what this is like. It's completely unfair.

2. Brick-and-mortar stores like ours make an immense contribution to the Jersey City economy. The food trucks and table vendors do not. Fully two thirds of the vendors at the Grove Plaza farmers market are from outside of Jersey City. They haven't built out any restaurants or hired any local contractors. They pay no rent to downtown landlords. They employ no Jersey City residents. They pay almost none of the Jersey City taxes and fees that we pay. Of the 10 vendors at Grove Plaza that are from Jersey City, only four of them have actually built brick-and-mortar establishments. None of them have done so in the pricey downtown area. So even they have a huge cost advantage over us.

3. We are all for fair competition. Several of you have mentioned the opening of Porta next door to Two Boots. I welcome them. They have invested millions in a beautiful new space. They are competing with me fairly. When Roman Nose opened, they took a bite out of my sales. But I welcomed them also. They are nice guys and serve good food. But, as I explained above, a food truck or a guy selling from the table from southern New Jersey or Brooklyn is simply not fair competition.

4. An empanada eaten does hurt pizza sales. Consumers prize above all else, convenience. If you can grab some food the moment you emerge from the Path station and you're hungry, you'll do so. Some people might say "no, I want pizza and I'll walk the half block." Many won't though. That's just human nature. But it's even worse for others. Just last night, at the City Council meeting, the owner of Ibby's testified as to how he now has two competitors at Grove Plaza selling falafel and hummus. Imagine, this is a guy that took the step of investing in Jersey City 20 years ago and makes some of the best food you could ever want and he's losing sales to vendors from outside of Jersey City Who are in effect given a huge subsidy by the Special Improvement District when they are allowed to sell at the best location in Jersey City. This simply is not right.

5. Jeff Favia clearly has many detractors here. I cannot comment as to some of the claims that have been made. I don't know Jeff well enough. What I can say is that he invested approximately $3 million in one of the nicest looking restaurants in Jersey City and has immeasurably improved the way the plaza looks. What if a Hooters had gone in there? I think his views need to be taken
seriously.

Finally, as to Two Boots, we have tried to contribute in every way possible to Jersey City. We are a consistent supporter of numerous neighborhood organizations including ArtHouse, the Boys and Girls Club, WBGO and local schools. When two buildings burned down on Manila last year, we were the first to offer our space for a fundraiser for the occupants who were burned out. I know other businesses are similarly generous. These are things that food trucks and vendors from tables simply will not give to Jersey City. It's another reason why it's so important that everybody support brick-and-mortar businesses.

If we give it time, we will get all of the restaurants we want. But so long as there are tables and food trucks at Grove Plaza restauranteurs will be less likely to build. I know everyone loves convenience. But convenience has costs.

Thanks
Aaron

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:15
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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You're right. Not EVERYTHING stays in JC. Just a lot.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:10
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Wow guys. Let me give you our story. Two Boots JC is not a franchise. I am friends with the founder who is based in NYC. I thought JC should have one. With his help, I opened Two Boots JC two years ago. It's completely independent. My wife and I own it. I've lived in JC since 1997. Did you read my post about how much we're involved in the community? I'm happy to answer any other questions.


That's great you're part of the community, but Two Boots, if founded by someone in NYC, is not a purely local business, which you seem to think is so important to support. Even if it's not a franchise, I'm guessing you don't get to use the name and logo for free; you must pay something to some sort of cooperative, partly owned by people who are not JC residents, with money going into the pockets of an entity that is not in JC. I don't know how the arrangement works but I'm thinking that money we spend at Two Boots doesn't stay entirely within the community, just as it is the case with owners of food trucks and tables. I'm also guessing that some of your ingredients are purchased outside of JC. I'm also guessing that while you made a point to hire local JC residents, how can you prevent them from moving outside of JC sometime after they've been hired? To keep everything "local" is just about impossible in our large capitalist economy, especially in a city that is right across the river from another state.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:06
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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What???
The price of my rent is set by the market. The price of a space at the Grove Street Plaza isn't. Am I missing something? As I said, the vendors at the plaza are receiving a subsidized, below market rent, plain and simple.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:06
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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ianmac47 wrote:
You're actually arguing not for capitalism, but for a corporate welfare state where the government steps in to make it easier for big business to operate at the expense of small business.


Corporate Welfare State...Thanks, Fulop!

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:06
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Thanks for reading. Of course, I disagree with every point you made. Here's my analogy. You don't get orchestra seats for the price of standing room. That's pretty much the way our capitalist system works (whether you're on the left or right politically). The farmer's market completely subverts that and provides a subsidy to outside, non brick and mortar businesses by offering them below market rent. It's bad economics and definitely unfair to those of us who pay market rates. If you disagree with these tenets of a market economy, you might want to try living in Venezuela.

And, by the way, I think Ibby's is fantastic.


You're actually arguing not for capitalism, but for a corporate welfare state where the government steps in to make it easier for big business to operate at the expense of small business. Getting the government to limit competition -- whether or not you see it as fair competition or not-- is not free market capitalism.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 20:02
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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I can't help but think it's all about money for the nonprofits and govt agencies involved. Seriously, look at the Jersey City Project where the city explicitly says they are in partnership. Why don't they just call it the Kannibal Home show? Oh sorry I mean the Kannibal Home show starring her Brooklyn vendors. (sorry, I don't mean to start a whole other discussion)

Jersey City markets, include jersey city businesses!


Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:59
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Wow guys. Let me give you our story. Two Boots JC is not a franchise. I am friends with the founder who is based in NYC. I thought JC should have one. With his help, I opened Two Boots JC two years ago. It's completely independent. My wife and I own it. I've lived in JC since 1997. Did you read my post about how much we're involved in the community? I'm happy to answer any other questions.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:59
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Two Boots, I'm considering adding you to my boycott list.

You have NO RIGHT bringing your pizza empire into Jersey City and getting in the way of something that benefits the residents (more choice, better options). If you can't compete with better food at lower prices, too bad. There's plenty of other pizza places to take your place. We don't need you.

Decisions should be made based on what benefits the residents of Jersey City, not what brings the greatest benefit to the capitalist pizza pigs trying to make a buck off us with their junk food.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:53
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TwoBootsJC wrote:
Thanks for reading. Of course, I disagree with every point you made. Here's my analogy. You don't get orchestra seats for the price of standing room. That's pretty much the way our capitalist system works (whether you're on the left or right politically). The farmer's market completely subverts that and provides a subsidy to outside, non brick and mortar businesses by offering them below market rent. It's bad economics and definitely unfair to those of us who pay market rates. If you disagree with these tenets of a market economy, you might want to try living in Venezuela.

And, by the way, I think Ibby's is fantastic.


I think I'll stay here in Jersey City for now. No desire to move to Venezuela. If the market at the plaza goes away, I don't care. If it stays, I don't care. But I think that the brick-and-mortar restaurants should put more effort into improving their own operations and food than whining to the city council about unfair competition. As for Ibby's, if their food is so fantastic, then the places selling the same type of food on the plaza shouldn't be a problem.
Also, I suppose the owner of Ibby's is a local JC resident, spends every dollar of his money in JC, employs people who all live in JC and spend every dollar of their paychecks here too. Can you verify this?

Finally a question: is Two Boots a franchise or a group of independent businesses that share a trademark and other marketing costs?

Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:53
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Thanks for reading. Of course, I disagree with every point you made. Here's my analogy. You don't get orchestra seats for the price of standing room. That's pretty much the way our capitalist system works (whether you're on the left or right politically). The farmer's market completely subverts that and provides a subsidy to outside, non brick and mortar businesses by offering them below market rent. It's bad economics and definitely unfair to those of us who pay market rates. If you disagree with these tenets of a market economy, you might want to try living in Venezuela.

And, by the way, I think Ibby's is fantastic.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:47
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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caj11 wrote:

Exactly what I'm talking about. Kudos to the Me Casa owner! I might just check the place out. As for the owner of Ibby's, I really hope the city council doesn't submit to their whining.


Not to mention Ibby's bumped their prices 75% after they renovated.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:33
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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JCMan8 wrote:
Caj11, I agree with your rebuttal to Two Boots' arguments.

But did you notice the most important part?

Quote:
Just last night, at the City Council meeting, the owner of Ibby's testified as to how he now has two competitors at Grove Plaza selling falafel and hummus.


That's what gets regulations passed (and competition stifled). Going to these town council meetings.

Now that the business owners are going beyond speaking to the press and are going to the meetings, I wouldn't be surprised if a regulation is passed that bans the sale of prepared food at this Farmer's Market.

A pity, because the Me Casa owner competed the right way. He got his own food truck which can be found in the plaza several nights a week.


Exactly what I'm talking about. Kudos to the Me Casa owner! I might just check the place out. As for the owner of Ibby's, I really hope the city council doesn't submit to their whining.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:32
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Caj11, I agree with your rebuttal to Two Boots' arguments.

But did you notice the most important part?

Quote:
Just last night, at the City Council meeting, the owner of Ibby's testified as to how he now has two competitors at Grove Plaza selling falafel and hummus.


That's what gets regulations passed (and competition stifled). Going to these town council meetings.

Now that the business owners are going beyond speaking to the press and are going to the meetings, I wouldn't be surprised if a regulation is passed that bans the sale of prepared food at this Farmer's Market.

A pity, because the Me Casa owner competed the right way. He got his own food truck which can be found in the plaza several nights a week.

Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:26
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Re: Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
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Seagull wrote:
Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Quote:

Seagull wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Seagull wrote:
lol....I'm going to dub you, "The Brooklyn Troll" now that you've been outed as not even living in Jersey City.


It wasn't ever a secret. This is not like, earth shattering revelation here.


It's all good man....I'm happy you have enough time on your hands that you can troll a board pertaining to another state.


"Troll" is not synonymous with "using the internet."


Ok, Mr. 2508 posts. Whatever makes you happy.


....since 2006.

To quote master Yoda: "When 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not"


Posted on: 2014/10/9 19:20
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