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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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nothing,folks here are already mutants. This from decades of chemical fumes blowing in from the west

Posted on: 2006/9/8 22:17
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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We'll just put them in Art Dog.

Posted on: 2006/8/23 2:21
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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could jersey city actually GET any dirtier?

Posted on: 2006/8/22 23:33
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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Quote:

bdlaw wrote:
I read the post thinking it was extremely sardonic and sarcastic- until I saw who posted it.

F890's sake, man. Don't the aliens and men in black vet your posts before you hit "submit"?


Have to admit my first thought reading the topic thread was that this was the corollary to that oft told joke about lawyers:

"What happens when you have 20,000 lawyers on the bottom of the ocean?"

"A good start!"

Posted on: 2006/8/22 23:27
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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I read the post thinking it was extremely sardonic and sarcastic- until I saw who posted it.

F890's sake, man. Don't the aliens and men in black vet your posts before you hit "submit"?

Posted on: 2006/8/22 21:33
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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LOL, reminds me of 9/11, when folks going to Hoboken via boat were forced to go through makeshift outdoor showers fully clothed before they could be repopulated.

Maybe when the sh&t goes down, we should just detonate the PATH trains and Holland Tunnel?

Pisces, really, do you have any idea of what you're saying? How many people from JC work in Manhattan? It won't be contaminated Manhattanites you need to worry about, it would be your neighbors. They'll be the one with the cooties!

Posted on: 2006/8/22 20:13
"Someday a book will be written on how this city can be broke in the midst of all this development." ---Brewster

Oh, wait, there is one: The Jersey Sting.
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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Pisces,

You are without question the most hysterical, un-informed person imaginable.

If you had bothered to read up 2 posts you'd get some inkling of what the reality and what the fantasy is regarding "dirty bombs".

If you don't believe what I have to say, go do your own research- But I'd suggest you not go to your normal site, "www.tinfoilhatfashions.com"

Certainly there COULD be EXTREMELY LIMITED carry off contamination.

But crying about Manhattanites contaminating "our people and bodegas"?

News Flash, Racial Warrior- The citizens of Manhattan ARE "our people". What kind of tribal BS are you trying to pull?

You'd throw people's wives, children, husbands, mothers and fathers into some sort of concentration camp?

What if they didn't want to go? Machine gun em?


To protect the oh-so-important 8 week old bread in the bodega?

Are you on medication?

It amazes me that the most whacked-out "liberal" person on this board suggests, immediately, in time of trouble to execute the most illiberal of policies- throwing innocent people into a friggin concentration camp because a geiger counter clicked when they walked by.

I normally ignore your ridiculous, hysterical & ill informed posts, but I made an exception here that I won't be making again, simply because there's a danger that like-minded shrieking children could be encouraged by your "solution" and cause a problem were some sort of incident to occur.



GWB

Posted on: 2006/8/22 19:34
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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What is Jersey City going to do with all the refugeees from manhattan? Many of them will be contaminated with radioactive dust on their clothing and it their hair and on their skin.
We need a plan to contain and isolate these New Yorkers in Liberty state park and/or in parking lots near the holland tunnerl, where they can be washed down by decomination teams, and kept away from the uncontaminated Jersey City people.
The worst scenario would be having a bunch of paniked New Yorkers covered in Radioactive Plutonium dust wandering around downtown, contaminating downtown and putting our people at risk for radiation poisioning.
Even a little bit of plutonium or uranium dust could be fatal or cancer causing, especially if you are a child or senior citizen.
For example if someone covered in plutonium dust was to walk into your bodega, you would have to rip out all the flooring, throw out all the goods, and spend thousands of dollars having your property decontaminated, also we would have to especially keep the New Yorkers away from our hosipitals because they will poision the doctors and nurses and patients with the dust.

Posted on: 2006/8/22 17:23
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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Good post, GWB. Other than the initial explosion and any residual radiation in the immediate area, there is no great threat, other than psychological.

There would need to be evacuation and cleanup of the immediate area to control any significant radioactive materials, but that can be done.

Posted on: 2006/8/22 15:02
"Someday a book will be written on how this city can be broke in the midst of all this development." ---Brewster

Oh, wait, there is one: The Jersey Sting.
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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The worst thing about a dirty bomb would not be the immediate explosion, which would be conventional & have the purpose only of scattering radioactive material. Even radiation poisoning would be extremely unlikely.

The big problem would be long-term contamination of the area & the fear that would engender (making it a great terror weapon). Some radioactive material is easier to clean up than others.

Plutonium & Uranium would probably be the last things you'd want to use- They just aren't "hot" enough & either one, if you get it at all, would be more useful in a legit nuke rather than wasted in a radiological bomb.

Short halflife/high emitting radiological materials would be much easier to get & would in the end be more effective. I won't mention them here, but you have all come in contact with them at the doctor or dentist's office one time or another.

Again, to be clear- Unless you are in the blast, you are unlikely to be killed outright, or even within years, by a "dirty bomb". If you sit in the area for a long time you may end up with a dose that will cause cancer. If you inhale a ton of it, that process may speed up.

If you are truly concerned about this, buy some potassium iodide pills. Radioactive isotopes of iodine tend to lodge in the thyroid and stay there, potentially causing cancer and other health problems down the road. If you pop potassium iodide while exposed to radioactive isotopes, your thyroid will have all the iodine you can handle and the radioactive isotopes will pass through your body naturally.

It is about the only treatment out there for radiation exposure. Note that it does NOTHING for radiation sickness, which you are unlikely, very unlikely, to get from a dirty bomb- you need to get exposed to a very high, very concentrated blast of radiation, from fission or fusion, for example, to get radiation sickness, OR a release of very, very highly radioactive/extremely short half-life and fast decay rate materials such as iodine 131, which is what killed the workers in Chernobyl- That stuff decays in about a week, but throws off a tremendous amount of radioactivity in the mean time.

You have to take the pills, ideally, BEFORE exposure, so it would be better, if you're concerned, to own some yourself, rather than have to wait for someone to pass them out. They are cheap, they are legal, they need no prescription, and I think you can even buy them on Amazon if you're concerned.

Rememeber- the main effect of a dirty bomb would be to cause panic, and, from the terrorist's perspective, cause mass civil disorder. It is more a psychological weapon than an effective physically-damaging one.

Thanks

GWB

Posted on: 2006/8/22 13:53
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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Dirty bombs generally don't "vaporize" anything except that which is in the immediate, limited vicinity.

The danger is the radioactive particulate matter which is vaporized in the explosion, which in turn is carried indiscriminantly in the wind.

That's all I'm going to say about dirty bombs in an open forum. There's plenty of online help for ne'erdowells and I'm not going to add to it.

Posted on: 2006/8/22 12:46
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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I'd like to think I would be vapourized, if not I hope that the wind was strong enough to blow it across to Brooklyn - better them then me!
I thought about getting some suba diving tanks, but I think we are just to close and the only thing here in JC we would see alive is rabbitrabbit still on the JClist leaving messages of a negative tone regarding the situation.

Posted on: 2006/8/22 2:33
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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I got Gaffer Tape and rolls of plastic

I'm not afraid!

"I got some groceries, some peanut butter
should last a couple of days!"

Posted on: 2006/8/22 2:19
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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Are you able to sleep at night? Do you have nightmares of little evil doers running around your head?

I suggest you live your life the way you know how and free from this worry. If this were to happen it would be a catastrophe, for the world not just New York.

Also I suggest you move to Indiana or West Virgina if you can't get passed this fear.

Posted on: 2006/8/22 1:33
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Re: What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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Just get some plastic and duct tape. Seal yourself in the bathroom. Tom Ridge assured us it would work. I trust him, and you should too.

Posted on: 2006/8/21 19:29
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What would happen in Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated in Wall Street?
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Are you better off than you were on Sept. 11?

Offices of Emergency Management still working on preparedness - five years later

By Rebecca Kaufman - Hudson Reporter 08/19/2006

What would happen in Hoboken or Jersey City if a radioactive "dirty bomb" was detonated across the river in New York?

Should you huddle in your home, or escape by train or car?

Some local officials are loath to release emergency plans to the public, even five years after the Sept. 11 disaster.

They say they are putting the public at risk by answering certain questions. Is it better to know, or to not know how to respond?

In March 2003, a Citizens Emergency Preparedness Council was created for Hoboken residents concerned about emergency preparedness in the city - but it hasn't met in two years.

The council was chaired by Dr. Janet Larson, professor of English at Rutgers University/Newark and a Hoboken resident. Larson had come to numerous City Council meetings to ask about the city's plans for catastrophes. The group, part of a federal effort, was to be an advisory board to the city's Office of Emergency Management and provide knowledge to the public.

But because of a lack of communication and assistance from the city government, the council last met in 2004. "Hoboken residents are in a virtual information blackout," Larson said last week. "The OEM coordinator, deputy coordinator, and mayor are the ones who control the information that is released to the public."

According to Larson, the city's part-time OEM Coordinator, Police Captain James Fitzsimmons, was often unreachable and wouldn't release information to the public, including the Emergency Operations Plan for the city.

Last November, the City Council introduced an ordinance to hire a full-time deputy for Fitzsimmons, but the idea languished for eight months until it was brought again before the council at a meeting two weeks ago. Last week, Fitzsimmons admitted that there were and still are some communication issues among various parties, but he said he won't release the text of the city's Emergency Operations Plan. He said it would compromise the security of Hoboken residents.

He did say the plan includes details of populations, equipment, evacuation plans, and procedures.

"Some things are not getting off the ground as fast as possible," Fitzsimmons said. "Preparedness never, ever ends."


Jersey City smacked by feds


Things aren't much different in Jersey City, which refuses to release its plan to the public for safety reasons, but got slapped by the federal government recently for not being prepared.

Two months ago, the federal Department of Homeland Security concluded that the city's plan for responding to catastrophic disasters flunked 14 out of 45 benchmarks.

Following the release of that information, the city refused to release its report to the media. Mayor Jerramiah Healy did say that city officials would meet to respond to the problems cited by the federal government. But he also blamed a lack of funding, and said that Jersey City was far from the only community that was unprepared.

"I have been briefed on the National Plan Review conducted by the Department of Homeland Security, and have been advised by the Office of Emergency Management staff, and Captain McGill that our plan is in need of improvement," said Mayor Healy in a statement last month. "New projects to be implemented include waterfront initiatives that will create exclusion zones and closed-circuit television monitoring to enhance security efforts along the waterfront area. The inadequacies mentioned are not unique to Jersey City, but speak for all of the 75 urban areas reviewed."

According to a local daily newspaper, the federal government had found that the city "has not taken into account that more than 40 percent of its resident don't own cars and rely on public transportation" and the plan didn't include residents in hospitals or with special needs.

Last week, City Council president Mariano Vega Jr. said that the council will be working to fix the problems, and has created a subcommittee for homeland security.

According to Jack Burns, Hudson County's OEM coordinator, Jersey City is already working internally to make changes to their Emergency Operations Plan.

"[Jersey City] is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be," Burns said. "I can find holes in anyone's plan. No one is perfect."


Broadcasts for citizens


But Burns agreed that citizens should have more information about what is being done.

"The feedback we get from citizens is 'Yes, you're prepared, but we don't know what we are doing,' " he said last week. "I'd rather scare the residents now and have them prepared. They'll be less fearful during an emergency if they are prepared prior to it."

County and local agencies are working on two fronts: One, coordinating their emergency response, and two, figuring out to how get information out to the public, both before and during emergencies. However, they are moving slowly on the second front.

County officials cited specific plans underway including creating a pamphlet for the public on emergency planning; creating a county AM radio station for emergency broadcasts, and even installing loud speakers in certain towns. Those plans have not yet come to fruition.

Every municipality, in accordance with its county and state Offices of Emergency Management, has a city/town-appointed coordinator for their respective OEM. Most are part-time.

Each municipal OEM is responsible for coordinating the efforts of the first responders at the scene of an emergency and educating the public of what to do in an emergency situation.


Dirty bomb


So what would happen if a radioactive "dirty bomb" exploded in New York City tomorrow?

A "dirty bomb" is a pack of explosives to which radioactive materials have been added in order to spread the effect. Obviously, the air in Hudson County's towns, right across the river, would be affected.

According to Burns, New York has a plan for evacuation in case of a disaster. The population for all of NYC is segmented, and approximately 250,000 people could be sent to shelters in New Jersey via the Lincoln Tunnel, Holland Tunnel, and George Washington Bridge.

But how would it affect Hudson County residents? Should they stay in their homes, or flee?

"It depends on the incident and where it happens," Burns said.

"The best advice initially for most things is stay in your home until you get further guidance," said Gary Garetano, the assistant director of the Hudson Regional Health Commission, a countywide agency that is constantly dealing with bioterrorism preparedness. "If a dirty bomb were to blow up, [and] if you went outside and a radioactive dust cloud was passing, you might be exposing yourself more than in the house. You don't need to duct tape everything, but shut the windows and doors and that sort of thing."

The Hudson Regional Health Commission, based in Secaucus, has been involved in drills with hospitals, as well as attending the quarterly meetings that are constantly held with municipal emergency management coordinators in all towns. The HRHC has received extra funding since 2001 to deal with the health aspects of terrorism, including disease outbreaks and contamination.

Garetano said that local emergency planning has improved greatly in the last five years.

"There's enhanced collaboration between all levels of government, municipal, county, state and federal, as well as between all disciplines," Garetano said. "In 2001, we had very rare communications with hospitals. Now it's almost daily. We've been participating in joint planning, exercises, and figuring out what's going on."


But how would you get instructions?


If there was a bioterrorism disaster, such as a dirty bomb or release of gas, would people be able to get further instructions right away?

Garetano and other officials cited various projects in progress.

The county will soon be setting up its own AM radio station. There is also a countywide phone calling system called Callmaster. Within the towns, Hoboken is researching a loudspeaker system, according to Fitzsimmons. It seems, however, that residents must wait a bit to see all of these plans enacted.

What if a dirty bomb was dropped tomorrow?

"Would there be confusion initially?" Garetano asked. "I would think right away there would be, but am I confident that we are prepared and on the same page and able to respond much more quickly than five years ago? The answer is yes."

The HRHC has acquired ham radios to trade information among the government and volunteers in case other lines of communication are down, and there is a Health Alert Network to send information by e-mail to 3,500 doctors and other caregivers in terms of other health threats. An automated system will soon be implemented in 36 hospitals in Northeastern New Jersey's six counties to alert health officials at any time of day if there is a spike in patients with certain diseases or complaints.

There is also an effort involving the HRHC and county OEM to install a radiation monitoring network to figure out which parts of the county are most affected if a bomb goes off.

There is also a countywide preparedness pamphlet underway for the public, Garetano said. "There are more meetings than you could imagine," Garetano said.


What one resident would do


Hoboken's Janet Larson, while stressing that she is not an expert, responded to a question of what she herself would do if there were a dirty bomb attack across the river.

"Whatever plans they have for evacuations have to be coordinated with New York City," she said. "If there was a bomb, how would I know? I'd probably hear it. I might see a light in the sky. I would grab my getaway bag and probably go down to the basement where I have food stocked, and water and blankets. I also have a radio down there and batteries. I have worked out my own escape routes from town by car [if an escape was needed], but I doubt if I could use them. There would be huge traffic jams. There is also a radioactive cloud that would pass, and it would be better to wait in my house for about three days and wait for an all-clear. But I don't know how the city will tell me it's safe to come out. People should barricade themselves as best they can. What they need to reduce radioactivity is physical barriers. Windows on the basement should be covered somehow. Doors are not very thick. I think I'd cover drains...well, I'm not an expert, but that's what I'd do. I have water in the basement. I'd probably take my cell phone down there, but cell phones [might not] be working. That's something to mention for other types of emergencies."

In a more serious nuclear attack, which would be more expansive than a dirty bomb, certain devices like cars would not work for a period of time.

"People whose clothes, for instance, are contaminated, will spread radioactive dust wherever they go," Larson said. "This is a big reason the public needs to be informed ahead of time and given instructions from authorities immediately after an event. Public health authorities should be organized to deal with contamination incidents...It's not automatic 'curtains.' "

The Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta have specific explanations on the Web for how to prepare for a "dirty bomb" and other terrorist attacks (see sidebar).

One thing that the Hoboken citizens' group did before it disbanded was to host a countywide seminar for area residents on bioterrorist threats. It was held on a Saturday in May of 2004 in Hoboken, and was lightly attended. At the hearing, Garetano said, in response to questions about a dirty bomb, "There is a more significant threat from the [force of the] explosion, while the radiation is added to create fear and panic. It takes massive, massive doses [to hurt a large number of people]."

Monique Davis, a health educator with the HRHC, said that spreading infectious diseases, or bioterrorism, is less expensive for terrorists than other kinds. She said that health officials would become aware of bioterrorism if rare diseases like anthrax, ebola or smallpox got into the air or food supply.

The government has a National Pharmaceutical Stockpile in case of outbreaks of a certain disease, and Hudson County has run drills to see how quickly they could dispense drugs and treat the public from various "POD" (Point of Distribution) sites. During a recent drill at New Jersey City University, they were able to assist 1,000 people per hour.


Full-time help


Hoboken's Fitzsimmons said that his office has a big project coming to aid communication issues. A company called PackeTalk has been contracted to place cameras around Hoboken, used primarily for the police.

"We [PackeTalk and the OEM] got to talking about loudspeakers," Fitzsimmons said. "By setting up a wireless network for the cameras, you are put in a position where you can connect a loudspeaker system."

Growing up in Hoboken, Fitzsimmons remembers the previous loudspeaker system when he was a child, which announced snow days and air raids.

According to Fitzsimmons, Mayor David Roberts and the City Council are on board "to provide alert warning and assistance to Hoboken."

Fitzsimmons, like most of the municipal OEM coordinators, works only part-time on emergency management, and receives a $10,000 stipend. Full-time, he is a police captain.

In November 2005, the Hoboken City Council discussed hiring a full time Deputy OEM coordinator, Joel Mestre, for a salary of up to $70,000. The matter was dropped rather than being introduced at the Nov. 14, 2005 City Council meeting.

But the Wednesday before last, it was approved by the council as part of a salary ordinance. This time, it was given a salary range of $50,000 to $85,000.

City Spokesman Bill Campbell said the appointment was always "in the works."

"He'll be the day-to-day guy for emergency management," Campbell said. Mestre has actually been acting for some time as an unpaid deputy emergency management coordinator, and attended meetings of the citizens' committee. He is also a volunteer firefighter in another town.

Currently, Mestre is the city's full-time zoning officer, but will switch over. He will still work under Fitzsimmons.

Fitzsimmons cited a bigger problem his department is working on - they need a stable emergency operations center (EOC) to work in during a catastrophe.

"We [currently] generate out of two locations," he said. "We set up here [the Police Station] and at City Hall, like on September 11." He said the EOC needs basic things to run efficiently: trunk lines, a radio generator, equipment, chairs, tables, basic tools, and utilities. Fitzsimmons said the hopes the EOC will move permanently to the first floor of City Hall soon. "Money sounds like an endless amount of available funds, and it's not," he said.


Hurricane evacuation plans


Oddly, even if Hoboken is moving slowly to release public information on what to do during terrorist threats, the city said it will soon release information about a more imminent threat - hurricanes.

Nearing the first anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, the city formed a Hurricane Task Force last month to prepare the community.

Officials say that Hoboken could be two stories under water if the area suffered a rare direct hit.

The first meeting of the task force was held in July, with Roberts, Police Chief Carmen LaBruno, Fire Chief John Cassesa, and Fitzsimmons.

According to Fitzsimmons, information on hurricane preparedness will be distributed shortly to the community. "Another important task in preparing for the eventuality of an emergency is our liaison with PSE&G, Verizon, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, and all the surrounding communities," said Fitzsimmons. In the event of a hurricane watch or warning, police advise that residents should stay tuned to local media for instructions. Stations may engage the Emergency Alert System and suspend regular programming. If the city needs to be evacuated, the media and the city's Web site will advise residents of the best routes.

The city plans to send representatives to the city's senior buildings, and will establish staging areas around the city to help evacuate those without the ability or means to do so themselves, Roberts said. The city has three public senior citizen buildings on the west side of town.

Recently, the county OEM has been utilizing "slosh modeling" - maps that can tell what would be submerged in water during different categories of hurricanes. According to Burns, four hospitals in Hudson County would be underwater during a severe hurricane.

The state Office of Emergency Management website, www.state.nj.us/njoem, claims to contain "coastal evacuation maps," but when one clicks on the information, the maps only show various local highways that could be used.


You can volunteer


Larson and Garetano noted that most (but not all) Hudson County towns are presently training local volunteers to join CERTs, or individual Community Emergency Response Teams.

In addition, the HRHC is seeking all sorts of volunteers for a countywide Medical Reserve Corps, which currently has 100 volunteers who are not medical professionals.

Hoboken or Bayonne do not yet have CERTs.

Both towns say they are working on it.

"We want to train people who will be here when an emergency happens and be able to organize as a group quickly," Fitzsimmons said. "It's all volunteers. There is no compensation, just a good Samaritan effort." CERT training is a 20-hour course taught over eight 2.5-hour classes. Volunteers are trained in the basics of firefighting, search and rescue, first aid, disaster psychology, evacuation leverage, public service, disaster preparedness, and team organization.

The only municipalities with existing CERT teams are Guttenberg, Weehawken, Union City, Jersey City, and the countywide team.

Garetano would like to see more people in the Medical Reserve Corps, and interested parties can call (201) 223-1133 and ask for Annie McNair.


Have your kit


When it comes down to it, Larson said, people should at least prepare kits to use in an emergency.

"People should have three days' supply of water, canned goods, nonperishable food for their family and pets," she said. "They should have a stash of things that you would need to survive on."

A getaway bag is also something that residents should have prepared for an emergency.

"The Red Cross and other emergency management websites have lists of what to include in getaway kits," she said. "You should have clothes, vitamins, medications, books, the essentials that you would need if you had to leave quickly."

Larson says the public should remain vigilant.

"If people are ignorant," Larson said, "they will be in trouble."


Reporter staff writer Caren Lissner contributed to this story.

Posted on: 2006/8/21 15:26
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