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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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In other words you can’t support your statements, and attempt to deny the proof I offer in links to state provided data, lol. BILLIONS of dollars. Luckily even NJ Democrats are beginning to insist JC taxpayers begin to pay their fair share.

Posted on: 7/8 21:40
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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A local property tax rate by itself is a meaningless piece of information.

That is the second and last time I will write this statement. It just exemplifies fiscal illiteracy.

You are better off spending your time educating yourself on the topic, than posting nonsensical and irrelevant, slap dash text (ie Billions as in over the course of years, plural.)

Posted on: 7/8 17:24
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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How JC’s tax rates compares to other Hudson County cities.
https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtr/Hudson19.pdf

Posted on: 7/8 14:23
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Here is the state list of tax rates for suburban Morris County. Compare those numbers to JC, whose rate is much lower at 1.540. The difference is mostly that suburban towns get a tiny amount of school funding back from Trenton.

https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtr/Morris19.pdf

Posted on: 7/8 13:48

Edited by Monroe on 2020/7/8 14:11:33
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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https://www.nj.gov/cgi-bin/education/c ... dist_code2390&maxhits=650

For one year, JC taxpayers received $575 million for schools from Trenton. The link above shows previous years, showing JC has gotten BILLIONS from state taxpayers, while paying well under 20% of the costs of educating its own kids.

Can you provide a link proving your claim that JC sends more $ to Trenton than it receives? Because I proved mine with data from the state database.

Posted on: 7/8 13:28
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Very selective, chery picking post. And the "downtown" locations you cite are folks who commute TO Jersey City for employment - you know Jersey City's downtown waterfront properties. How much affordable housing do those towns have...Answer really not much.

With that they, the NIMBYs and segragists really should keep a lid on whining about having Trenton fund urban school districts.


Receiving Billions is just not correct. That is easy to dismiss as the combined school and municipal budgets is barely a single billion. Jersey City does generate more state tax revenue than it receives.

Posted on: 7/8 12:53
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Much of sales tax in JC is half the state average at 3%. Do you really think Newport Mall generates anything near what the Mall at Short Hills or Riverside Square does,
lol? And the dollar stores and bodegas in JC compared to, say, downtown Summit or Rudgewood or Princeton? Anyone thinking JC contributes more to Trenton than it receives back in school support, Section 8 funding, etc has no grip on reality. In school support alone JC has gotten BILLIONS from suburban taxpayers. And the result are some of the worst schools in NJ.

And the local schools that suburban taxpayers fund through local real estate taxes is because they get a pittance back from Trenton (from their income taxes and sales taxes) because towns like JC and Newark get BILLIONS.

Posted on: 7/8 0:49

Edited by Monroe on 2020/7/8 1:11:15
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Quote:

HeightsNative wrote:
Quote:

Ralph_Abutts wrote:
Sorry, but $116 million is not a tiny amount nor a tiny percentage.


LOL. In a city as large as ours, yes it is. On both accounts. We pay a significantly lower tax rate than almost every city in this state.


It’s this very problem, which everyone called Yvonne crazy on, is why tax abatements were absolutely improper with regards to how much they were used.

Honest question: who do you think pays the portion of the budget that we don’t? (Spoiler alert, most of the suburban taxpayers in this state) You do understand what “subsidy” means right? You do get that SOMEbody else pays for most of our failing schools in addition to paying for their own, right? You do get that we’ve been getting a mostly free ride for a long time while Nero Fulop fiddled despite being warned about this for years, right?

Not even Charlie from society hill (aka neverleft) can spin his way out of this mess.


Comparing solely property tax rates is meaningless information. If you weren't innumerate in public finance, you would know better.

Let's ask your question another way, who pays for affordable housing for those and that being a majority of suburban towns? Answer: Jersey City does.

So you can lament the rest of the state paying more in taxes to fund urban school districts, but you then have to consider who willingly houses the poor and their children attending urban school districts like Jersey City, Newark, Patterson, and Elizabeth.

Many towns skirt their affordable housing responsibility. Some get out of such by paying Jersey City directly, like tony Upper Saddle River.

By the way, state spennding on public education is a small slice of the state budget pie. Over half the state's budget goes to pension and healthcare.

Also, most of the state's revenue comes from sales and income taxes. This includes businesses and residents in Jersey City that pay such to the State Treasurer.

How much does your suburban town's businesses generate in State tax revenue? Answer not as much as Jersey City. Maybe it is not fair that Jersey City sends more tax revenue to Trenton than other suburban towns. In other words, Jersey City is a net benefit to Trenton. It provides more tax revenue to Trenton than it takes. You cannot say that is true of many suburban municipalities.

When you write suburban tax payers, their local property and school taxes go to pay for local services and local education. None go directly to Jersey City and other Abbott districts.

Posted on: 7/7 22:36
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Yes. I was agreeing with you and noting how you’ve been right about abatements this whole time. But these clowns on this board who kicked you for it only showed their complete lack of what’s going on.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Heights Native, why do I bring up tax abatements? First, the school system do not discriminate against residents based on whether their building pays schools taxes. Secondly, tax abatements are a scam, what is told to the public is the amount of revenue that the tenants pay. What is hidden are the subsidies. As an example, a senior living in an one bedroom pays $2,200 a month in rent. Maybe that tenant only pays $300 a month based on their income, the rest comes from taxpayers. There are people paying rent in non-tax abated buildings paying similar rent and their landlord use that rent to pay school taxes. It is a scam.

Posted on: 7/5 23:14
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Heights Native, why do I bring up tax abatements? First, the school system do not discriminate against residents based on whether their building pays schools taxes. Secondly, tax abatements are a scam, what is told to the public is the amount of revenue that the tenants pay. What is hidden are the subsidies. As an example, a senior living in an one bedroom pays $2,200 a month in rent. Maybe that tenant only pays $300 a month based on their income, the rest comes from taxpayers. There are people paying rent in non-tax abated buildings paying similar rent and their landlord use that rent to pay school taxes. It is a scam.

Posted on: 7/5 20:38
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Quote:

Ralph_Abutts wrote:
Sorry, but $116 million is not a tiny amount nor a tiny percentage.


LOL. In a city as large as ours, yes it is. On both accounts. We pay a significantly lower tax rate than almost every city in this state.


It’s this very problem, which everyone called Yvonne crazy on, is why tax abatements were absolutely improper with regards to how much they were used.

Honest question: who do you think pays the portion of the budget that we don’t? (Spoiler alert, most of the suburban taxpayers in this state) You do understand what “subsidy” means right? You do get that SOMEbody else pays for most of our failing schools in addition to paying for their own, right? You do get that we’ve been getting a mostly free ride for a long time while Nero Fulop fiddled despite being warned about this for years, right?

Not even Charlie from society hill (aka neverleft) can spin his way out of this mess.

Posted on: 7/5 16:09
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Bayonne residents pay more than twice what JC residents do. JC needs to pay its fair share. JC has bled suburban taxpayers of billions of dollars to support its schools, which are awful.

Posted on: 7/5 13:05
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Quote:

Monroe wrote:
JC taxpayers pay such a tiny percentage of educating their own children that these posts are hilarious.


I'll give a little bit of credit to Murphy for finally trying to correct that, but JCBOE also needs to cut its budget!

$736 million to educate 29,255 students, for over $25,100 per student. The JCBOE gets $136,504,704 from property taxes and $30,692,633 from the awful payroll tax that should be unconstitutional. JC taxpayers contribute 22.7% to the school budget.

The average school district pays what? $15,000 per student and 40-50% from local sources.

JC Taxpayers pay enough. Cut the budget!

Posted on: 7/4 22:00
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Sorry, but $116 million is not a tiny amount nor a tiny percentage.

Posted on: 7/4 21:52
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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JC taxpayers pay such a tiny percentage of educating their own children that these posts are hilarious.

Posted on: 7/4 21:15
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Old link but interesting read none the less.

https://civicparent.org/2018/03/16/upd ... ped-by-project-type-ward/

Confirms that Jersey City received $20 million in PILOTs than it would under normal taxation, at the expense of the school board that got screwed over due to the abatements.

I personally believe the JCBOE is an gluttonous whale of waste. So any underfunding to force budget cuts is welcomed by me.

Posted on: 7/4 16:32
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Hundreds protest budget cuts, planned teacher layoffs at Jersey City schools

JERSEY CITY — More than 300 parents, teachers and students crowded inside School 26 on Monday night to demand Jersey City school board members find a way to avoid massive cuts to school staffing and educational programs.

The board was meeting to adopt its $638 million budget for 2019-20 at a time when the 30,000-student district faced a budget gap that exceeds $100 million and a cut in state school aid that totals roughly $30 million. The district in recent weeks sent out hundreds of layoff warnings to teachers and staff — during Teacher Appreciation Week — panicking district employees and parents.

https://www.nj.com/hudson/2019/05/hund ... -jersey-city-schools.html


Posted on: 2019/5/14 5:01
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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JCGuys wrote:

Perhaps a discussion for another thread but I never understood why children were placed in a grade based on their age, rather than ability. It probably is all about money as prodigies would quickly skip grades


My brother addressed the above issue by moving to a town that had a school dedicated to advanced kids. The oldest of his two sons has a genius level IQ. He basically "graduated" high school at age 15 and has been taking college level math and chemistry. Regular school was pretty much a prison of boredom for him.

I like the Montessori method which seems a good fit for my kid (at least for the first few years). We are already using the method at home with success. Both of us despised our early school years and want something better for our own. Me in particular.. Forced to sit in a chair and recite stuff written on a blackboard all day was torture. if I had been born 10 years later, I would have been poisoned with ADD meds.

Posted on: 2019/4/4 20:02
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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MDM wrote:
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Adonis wrote:
Spending $23,337 per student is outrageous, especially when you consider what they are getting.


That is about what it will cost me to send my kid to one of the Montessori schools here in Jersey City.

School costs is one of the reasons I lose tenants who have kids. As so as the kids grow out of pre-K, it's off to the suburbs or private school (most can't afford it). My one tenant headed out to somewhere near Dover for the exact same issue. His kid didn't hit the lottery for the charter so he ended up in the local public school. The kid was bored out of his mind because he is already doing fractions, divisions, etc. whilst the rest of the class is still learning adding & subtraction.


Perhaps a discussion for another thread but I never understood why children were placed in a grade based on their age, rather than ability. It probably is all about money as prodigies would quickly skip grades and the school system wont be able to leech off their per capita funding every year. A high school graduate degree has literally become a participation trophy.

Posted on: 2019/4/4 18:47
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Quote:

Adonis wrote:
Spending $23,337 per student is outrageous, especially when you consider what they are getting.


That is about what it will cost me to send my kid to one of the Montessori schools here in Jersey City.

School costs is one of the reasons I lose tenants who have kids. As so as the kids grow out of pre-K, it's off to the suburbs or private school (most can't afford it). My one tenant headed out to somewhere near Dover for the exact same issue. His kid didn't hit the lottery for the charter so he ended up in the local public school. The kid was bored out of his mind because he is already doing fractions, divisions, etc. whilst the rest of the class is still learning adding & subtraction.

Posted on: 2019/4/4 15:34
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Spending $23,337 per student is outrageous, especially when you consider what they are getting.

Posted on: 2019/4/2 23:12
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Quote:

Ralph_Abutts wrote:
Quote:

That's a dead-end link.


Yeah, why should they make following the bread crumbs easy???
Go here: https://www.state.nj.us/education/guide/2018/district.shtml and type Jersey City into the "Search for a District by Name:" field.

Posted on: 2019/4/2 16:12
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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That's a dead-end link.

Posted on: 2019/4/2 15:28
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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brewster wrote:

Or maybe get rid of the district and go all charter like New Orleans. What we're doing is simply not working for anyone but the staff and contractors.


I am on board with this idea. Though the current governor is anti-charter. His administration put a block on new charters. We may actually see charters disappear.

I would add that parents should be allowed to 'roll over' unused funds (allocated annually) to be used on future education expenses (including college and trade schools). This would bring some financial accountability to the school via the parents, instead of a politicized school board.

Posted on: 2019/4/2 13:31
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
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It would be interesting to see some more stats about amount of admin, non-teaching staff numbers as a ratio to students, and as a ration to teachers, and average salaries. Surely this data could be cobbled together from some source. It would be interesting to compare across districts in NJ, and against districts in other states. I am pretty sure the results will be predictable, but having cold, hard numbers would be nice.


You can find that information here:
https://rc.doe.state.nj.us/
However, the NJS Dept of Ed stopped reporting school financials, post 2011.

You can still get school district financial stats, albeit from year 2011 and earlier at this link:
https://www.nj.gov/education/reportcard/index.html


Much of what they want is here;https://www.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/education/csg/18/csg.pl

Basically we spend more on everything than almost anyone else, except extracurriculars, in which we are 11th Percentile.

I have a modest proposal. Why don't we simply stop sending kids to the school system. It's clearly what they would like, the district is being run by and for it's employees, any education is merely incidental. Alternatively, the District should declare bankruptcy like GM as a way to shed absurd union contracts and retirement obligations. Or maybe get rid of the district and go all charter like New Orleans. What we're doing is simply not working for anyone but the staff and contractors.

PS: Among the things being cut for next year at McNair is many non-STEM AP classes. Anything that could not create at least a 30:1 teacher/student ration is gone.

Posted on: 2019/4/1 21:13
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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It would be interesting to see some more stats about amount of admin, non-teaching staff numbers as a ratio to students, and as a ration to teachers, and average salaries. Surely this data could be cobbled together from some source. It would be interesting to compare across districts in NJ, and against districts in other states. I am pretty sure the results will be predictable, but having cold, hard numbers would be nice.


You can find that information here:
https://rc.doe.state.nj.us/
However, the NJS Dept of Ed stopped reporting school financials, post 2011.

You can still get school district financial stats, albeit from year 2011 and earlier at this link:
https://www.nj.gov/education/reportcard/index.html

Posted on: 2019/4/1 15:26
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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Meanwhile, nearby Maplewood is getting almost an overall 7%
tax increase. https://villagegreennj.com/towns/gover ... QLbQCoKU3U4En2YAlaVNfvpo8

Posted on: 2019/4/1 14:47
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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MDM wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
I used to have the numbers, but I can't seem to find them. The number of support and admin staff today compared to 30+ years ago is MUCH HIGHER, even though the student population was the same or smaller.


This was the case back when I was a student in a suburban public school back in the '70s and '80s. The high school had a superintendent, deputy superintendent, principal, vice principal, dean, and a plethora of admin support staff. This was during the Gen X baby bust, where the number of students dropped about half from the previous generation.

My parents used to wonder what all those people did all day. They pulled me out and put me in private school (that was perpetually underfunded) the last two years of my education. The improvement in education quality was astounding, primarily because the teachers were people who just wanted to teach. Public school the teachers were constantly doing work slowdowns, sick-outs, threatening strikes, or just overall hated their jobs.


One of the biggest challenges is the resistance by entrenched teacher unions resisting (and, outright rejecting) any oversight or outside probing of the system. We are continually told "trust us, we are the experts" or "we don't need you sticking your nose into our business". But, it IS our business. It is certainly our money.

It would be interesting to see some more stats about amount of admin, non-teaching staff numbers as a ratio to students, and as a ration to teachers, and average salaries. Surely this data could be cobbled together from some source. It would be interesting to compare across districts in NJ, and against districts in other states. I am pretty sure the results will be predictable, but having cold, hard numbers would be nice.

Posted on: 2019/4/1 14:31
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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bodhipooh wrote:
I used to have the numbers, but I can't seem to find them. The number of support and admin staff today compared to 30+ years ago is MUCH HIGHER, even though the student population was the same or smaller.


This was the case back when I was a student in a suburban public school back in the '70s and '80s. The high school had a superintendent, deputy superintendent, principal, vice principal, dean, and a plethora of admin support staff. This was during the Gen X baby bust, where the number of students dropped about half from the previous generation.

My parents used to wonder what all those people did all day. They pulled me out and put me in private school (that was perpetually underfunded) the last two years of my education. The improvement in education quality was astounding, primarily because the teachers were people who just wanted to teach. Public school the teachers were constantly doing work slowdowns, sick-outs, threatening strikes, or just overall hated their jobs.

Posted on: 2019/4/1 12:48
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Re: ‘Massive’ $120M budget shortfall is subject of special Jersey City BOE meeting
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I used to have the numbers, but I can't seem to find them. The number of support and admin staff today compared to 30+ years ago is MUCH HIGHER, even though the student population was the same or smaller. The same goes for teaching staff. Certainly, it seems like there is enough fat to trim in staff numbers. Of course, that is never a move that is liked or easy to accept.

Also, we rank in the top 10 or 20 percent of salaries, for teachers and other admin staff. Something has to give, and now that residents are being told they will be shouldering the spending ways of the BOE, people are paying attention and demanding accountability. The problem with our setup of others shouldering our budget is that it encouraged the populace at large to be apathetic about the BOE spending.

Posted on: 2019/4/1 12:01
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