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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Edgewordwise – Your story is your story, and I should not have shut it down. And yes, this polarization and heatedness is not healthy, but I still do feel an obligation to counter the false conspiracies and fake news being offered, which I truly find insidious. It is precisely those using such tactics who are NOT as you claim you just want, arguing in "grounded arguments"
And you do you -- go on with sharing your church history – as long as it’s not used to further false conspiracies and support bigotry, I won't protest.

Posted on: 2018/10/30 22:50
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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I am male and could have sworn you were a guy. Glad to have cleared that up. You might be old enough to be my mother, so thank you for reminding me to know my place. Of course my parents were overly trusting. It’s precisely this environment that was a recipe for the sexual abuse Cardinal McCarrick committed. Befriend a family, have his way with their kids. He wasn’t even acting in an official church capacity and used his air of authority to let him molest them.

I guess my byzantine scriptural allusions make you roll your eyes, huh? OK, I will spare you from any more. I don’t ascribe to those birther etc. conspiracies myself, but I find your shaming and insults to be putting gas on a fire. My point was simply that if you knew someone personally and just argued civilly based on well grounded arguments, then you make some progress. Instead we get these tiresome heated exchanges and get off topic.

I think i am done with this forum for now. I’ll just go back to lurking on JCList to find new restaurants to try.

Posted on: 2018/10/30 22:11
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Edgewordwise - wth are you talking about?

Your story is just so random and self-referential. And honestly, your retelling of it IS strange. You stated nothing happened. You stated the priest was in a separate room. You also stated, quote, you “COULD have been a victim,” the implication being you weren’t. Yet you then pat yourself on the back for not abandoning your faith and leaving the church?

What were you a victim of? A priest’s fear of the dark? Of parents who insisted you be there to “protect” a priest who was scared of the dark? If you felt uncomfortable, I'd understand, but you didn't relay that in your original retelling. (What jumped out at me was that your parents would actually have their daughter babysit an adult man – but that’s sorta more on your parents, not the church). And to equate your episode with victims who are alleging actual molestations, rapes, or sexual harassment by those in power, whether it be priests, Hollywood producers, TV network heads, future supreme court justices, makes you bringing up the story sorta random, yes.

You’re now prattling on, jumping from here to there, lecturing us about kindness to others, when the conversation had been about posters taking to task Mao or Yvonne using sketchy sources in trying to further fake news, be it trutherism, birthism, slander towards others in order to further an exclusionary, bigoted, UN-Christlike agenda…I would argue your defense of Mao and Yvonne’s actions says a lot about you. And for someone seemingly so educated (given your inclination to show off your byzantine knowledge of orthodox church allusions), your lack of critical thinking skills is somewhat surprising.

And no, I’m not in the ministry. I’m a proud mom, wife, service worker, and spiritual-humanist who is worried about our country’s future, and had decided to exercise what I see as almost a duty to call out b.s., particularly hypocrisy from those using untruths to support a bigoted agenda.

On the other hand, as I said initially, it's also pouring flames on this dumpster fire of a discussion, so you have that...

Posted on: 2018/10/30 21:22

Edited by esp123 on 2018/10/30 21:38:16
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Trying to dismiss me by calling me strange. Nice. I grant you that my tone describing my faith may seem arrogant to you, but my personal experience is what it is. I happen to think you are arrogant for assuming you are superior because you are somehow more normal.

But as for the gratuitous account I shared... really? No one cares? Is your longing to see the Church change with the times more important than sympathizing with victims? Thankfully I didn’t become one, but I found myself in a vulnerable position at the hands of an emotionally immature priest, and I am not alone.

I’ve come to appreciate the fact that it’s important to be charitable to others as each person is fighting a hard battle (Plato). Several posters ridiculed Mao and Yvonne and even suggest that they should just disappear. That’s dangerous talk in this world we live in. Hell is other people but it can be heaven if you make peace with them.


Posted on: 2018/10/30 17:37
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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I don't know who you are or what you do for a living, but I'm ready to conclude that you're a strange human being with a modicum of intelligence but are off either emotionally or socially.

I am not sure of why you would randomly and gratuitously share your experience of sleeping in a rectory. No one cares, but . . . well . . . like i said it was gratuitous.

Nothing in ESP's comment suggested he was bitter about the Latin mass. However, your assertion that somehow a Latin Mass elevates your spirituality is inexplicable. While I was in the seminary, because of my academic performance I was invited to study New Testament Greek. Still, I don't waive that around to suggest I have a better command of the Gospels than other people.

It seems you're just posting for the sake of showing off your spirituality. That's neither charitable, Christian nor sincere.

Quote:

edgewordwise wrote:
Hmm why so bitter about the Latin Mass, esp? Between this and “woe to clergy” you somehow took offense to, it would seem to me you work in parish ministry. Most quiet Catholics are rather ambivalent about liturgy. FYI I attend vernacular Masses and still find inspiration, but the Latin Mass is like a magnet school for more studious Catholics, so makes for more stimulating churchy conversation if that is one’s preference. So what high horse are you talking about? I still believe what I was taught in CCD and only came to the Latin Mass later in life. I don’t think I am better than anyone else, but I like any Catholic confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and founded the Catholic Church upon St. Peter. That’s all in Vatican II documents.

I am curious what your vision of what the future of the Church should be. If it’s just going to be one with vague platitudes and attempting to forgive something that isn’t considered wrong to begin with, then it will lose its purpose and eventually become irrelevant, just another NGO as Pope Francis said.

Before I completely digress from the topic of this thread, I would admit that I slept overnight in a rectory living room when I was 12 because the priest friend of my family was scared to be alone that night. There was no contact as he was in his own room but I did get concerned looks from the church staff who saw me the next morning. Was driven nack home and it never happened again. So in retrospect I could have been a victim and could have had every reason to abandon my faith but choose to remain.

Posted on: 2018/10/30 16:23
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Hmm why so bitter about the Latin Mass, esp? Between this and “woe to clergy” you somehow took offense to, it would seem to me you work in parish ministry. Most quiet Catholics are rather ambivalent about liturgy. FYI I attend vernacular Masses and still find inspiration, but the Latin Mass is like a magnet school for more studious Catholics, so makes for more stimulating churchy conversation if that is one’s preference. So what high horse are you talking about? I still believe what I was taught in CCD and only came to the Latin Mass later in life. I don’t think I am better than anyone else, but I like any Catholic confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and founded the Catholic Church upon St. Peter. That’s all in Vatican II documents.

I am curious what your vision of what the future of the Church should be. If it’s just going to be one with vague platitudes and attempting to forgive something that isn’t considered wrong to begin with, then it will lose its purpose and eventually become irrelevant, just another NGO as Pope Francis said.

Before I completely digress from the topic of this thread, I would admit that I slept overnight in a rectory living room when I was 12 because the priest friend of my family was scared to be alone that night. There was no contact as he was in his own room but I did get concerned looks from the church staff who saw me the next morning. Was driven nack home and it never happened again. So in retrospect I could have been a victim and could have had every reason to abandon my faith but choose to remain.

Posted on: 2018/10/30 3:52
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Edgewordwise-
You’re amazed we’re picking on semantics and missing the gist? To the contrary, your gist is quite apparent.

The arrogance is evident in your presumption and certitude that the traditionalist Catholic practice is if not the best, indeed the one and only, path towards heaven; evident in your scolding (“Woe” to them, lol?) of more liberal bishops and brethren who don’t believe as you do; evident in your admonishments that their flock is headed to hell.

True to form, your latest post setting yourself apart because you apparently “know better”, reveals your presumption that you and your Traditional Latin Mass sect are somehow privy to the one and only path to salvation. To the rest of us, "Woe!"

Given your inclination for phrases, here’s another one: “Get off your high horse.” That phrase is figurative too.

Posted on: 2018/10/29 21:12
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Hopefully you are not trolling me as I was quoting it. In all your study of church history, you must have come across this phrase often attributed to St John Chrysostom, right? Google it if you need to.

Contrary to my use of the word “darken”, this phrase is figurative, but the meaning is to whom much has been given, much is expected.

Quote:

Sutherland wrote:
It takes a great deal of arrogance to assert one knows the composition of the road to hell.
Quote:

edgewordwise wrote:
The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops like these.

Posted on: 2018/10/29 18:47
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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It takes a great deal of arrogance to assert one knows the composition of the road to hell.
Quote:

edgewordwise wrote:
The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops like these.

Posted on: 2018/10/29 18:12
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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I am amazed how you two can write essays picking semantics which I have to admit chose poorly, yet totally miss the gist of my argument.

Obsession: should have said haunted by or very much interested in a subject

Darken: I meant that literally as a shadow while the sun is shining behind you as you enter a church. No offense intended and nothing gives me more joy than to see sinners repent, myself included.

When I bring up the Last Judgement, I don’t say I am in a better position. In fact the opposite may very well be true. Many can claim ignorance because of lax clergy, but I cannot. So woe to those clergy in the church who hold back on or outright deny the more difficult and unpopular teachings so as not to offend their congregations. The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops like these.

Posted on: 2018/10/29 17:10
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Being interested in the Church is hardly an obsession. I was an alter boy, went to an all boys Catholic HS, a Catholic College (where i spent three years in the seminary) and then ultimately a Catholic Law School. My interests in the Church are based upon both the history of my relationship with the Church and my curiosity as an attorney. Reading Yvonne and Mao's blatant comments about hate some how triggers in me a sense of defensiveness of the Church and myself.

Your suggestion that my attendance at service, specifically at my home parish would some how cast a darkness on the church is offensive. Still it's typical of the small minded who think their relationship with Christ and the Church is unique and should be protected for only people similarly positioned. Today's Gospel reading talked about how people, very much like you, Mao and Yvonne tried to keep Jesus away from Bartimaeus. But Jesus had no tolerance for these naysayers, and went direct to Bartimaeus.







Quote:

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Wow, again with assuming the worst of someone’s intentions. Sutherland, for someone who admits not having been to Mass regularly in years, you are still obsessed with this institution enough to remain a spectator. Perhaps that is a good thing and one day you will come around and darken the doors of your parish church once more (if it hasn’t been closed already) and cast your cares upon the Lord.

There was a time when straight people were regularly refused sacraments for canonical reasons and people humbly accepted it. Then the Church seemed to relax its precepts except for gay people, so understandably everyone finds this unjust. But the injustice really is to the straight people who have been given a free pass for offenses they’ve committed. They’ve been denied Catholicism in all its guilty glory. Your average clergyman may be overly lenient, but God is not mocked. Everyone deserves the truth.

Posted on: 2018/10/28 20:56
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Edgewordwise - You’re right, I don’t know you. But before your backtracking, and you now suggesting that by golly gee, calm down, because aren't we’re all just crazy different people living here in this city?…well, let’s just say that’s a different tone than your initial posts.

Posts in which you threw shade at Sutherland that perhaps he will one day “darken” the steps of a church; accuse me of “demonizing” others, when my primary objective was to call out what I see as the intellectual dishonesty of posters on here continually trying to offer up “fake news” as “reliable” sources. So no, don’t think I, or anyone who is alarmed at where this country is heading, should calm down.

And you just need to look at the news this weekend, the bombings carried out by people falling for the “fake news” conveyors. Posters who perpetrate birtherism, trutherism, conspiracy theories promoting an exclusionary, bigoted agenda, and attempting to do so by disingenuously offering up questionable sources to back up their agenda, imo need to be called out. Ironically, your knee-jerk reaction is to view those of us who may try to do that (and not the ones, like Yvonne & Mao, who offer up questionable sources to back up the questionable conspiracy theories) as the ones being uncharitable and un-Christian?

Moreover, your claim that modern priests who don’t hold everyone to pre-Vatican 2 standards are damning souls to hell; your self-serving suggestion that only “true Christians” (like yourself?) who are traditionalists, wallowing in what you call the “glory” of Catholic guilt, have the best chance of being let into heaven at the hour of reckoning…Imho your attitude reeks of hubris. Instead of attempting to chide Sutherland and the rest of us on how we’re falling short and therefore in grave danger on Judgment Day, suggest you take a good look in the mirror…If I recall, the sin of Pride transcends all others as the most onerous.

Posted on: 2018/10/28 19:24

Edited by esp123 on 2018/10/28 19:43:45
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Good News, the beginning of RICO, the feds is telling the various churches not to destroy records.
http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.c ... -feds-warn-us-church.html

Posted on: 2018/10/28 0:38
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Yikes, calm down. Most of the posts on here (not just from you) are precisely the textbook definition of ad hominem attacks, and apparently that’s assuming the worst?

I get it. I don’t really know you and neither do you me on this forum. I think everyone here is some level of crazy, but that’s why we live in this city. Variety is the spice of life.

Quote:

esp123 wrote:
Think Edgewordwise is projecting, not too mention protesting, too much. It’s nice you want to fight Maos battles, but chill out.

You yourself are being prone to assume the worst of others, accusing them of ad hominem attacks, when what the person (me) is protesting is Mao’s attempt to promote what amounts to the equivalent of “birtherism” and disingenuously trying to portray it as somehow on his part just offering “objective” news. Like claims of Obama not being born in the US, the Shepard story is also often promoted by those with an agenda that is far from kind.This promotion of “fake news” seems a constant pattern with Mao and Yvonne, and needs to be called out for what it is.

media matters.org had this to say of the author and the book that Mao tries to validate and offer as credence for Maos claims of Shepard’s ‘hagiography’ :

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2013 ... rn-of-matthew-shep/195894

As for my posting at 2am, some weekends I work the night shift, there a problem with that? or you just assuming the worst?




Posted on: 2018/10/27 21:11
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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LGBT is not part of the Synod. Here is the problem, people here live in denial. Of course, let's pretend the minors and young men in the seminary were not raped by gay men. Let's blame Yvonne, for bring up what is true. There are dozens of priests now speaking up on youtube on the abuse in the Church and those men are saying the same thing I have said here, it is homosexual men entering the seminary. As one priest said he could not share a shower with women so why are gay men allowed in when there is a dormitory type living? I am tired of my money going to pay off victims because there is a gay network and personally I am thrilled the feds are considering RICO to investigate the Catholic Church. I want the names of each predatory priest listed and I want to know (not the names) but what gender was violated. By the way, the 11 year old boy that McCarrick raped will be speaking in Baltimore in a rally outside the Bishop's conference. There will be thousands of Catholics there protesting. When the child protection program was instituted, they included priests and others who work for the church but excluded themselves. The idea that the bishops want to investigate themselves in totally a joke. There will be thousands of Catholics who want gay men out of the priesthood because it leads to rape, pay offs of church funds, and a loss of faith.

Posted on: 2018/10/27 18:32
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Think Edgewordwise is projecting, not too mention protesting, too much. It’s nice you want to fight Maos battles, but chill out.

You yourself are being prone to assume the worst of others, accusing them of ad hominem attacks, when what the person (me) is protesting is Mao’s attempt to promote what amounts to the equivalent of “birtherism” and disingenuously trying to portray it as somehow on his part just offering “objective” news. Like claims of Obama not being born in the US, the Shepard story is also often promoted by those with an agenda that is far from kind.This promotion of “fake news” seems a constant pattern with Mao and Yvonne, and needs to be called out for what it is.

media matters.org had this to say of the author and the book that Mao tries to validate and offer as credence for Maos claims of Shepard’s ‘hagiography’ :

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2013 ... rn-of-matthew-shep/195894

As for my posting at 2am, some weekends I work the night shift, there a problem with that? or you just assuming the worst?




Posted on: 2018/10/27 17:25

Edited by esp123 on 2018/10/27 17:42:09
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Wow, again with assuming the worst of someone’s intentions. Sutherland, for someone who admits not having been to Mass regularly in years, you are still obsessed with this institution enough to remain a spectator. Perhaps that is a good thing and one day you will come around and darken the doors of your parish church once more (if it hasn’t been closed already) and cast your cares upon the Lord.

There was a time when straight people were regularly refused sacraments for canonical reasons and people humbly accepted it. Then the Church seemed to relax its precepts except for gay people, so understandably everyone finds this unjust. But the injustice really is to the straight people who have been given a free pass for offenses they’ve committed. They’ve been denied Catholicism in all its guilty glory. Your average clergyman may be overly lenient, but God is not mocked. Everyone deserves the truth.

Posted on: 2018/10/27 15:20
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Mao's intentional misuse of hagiography was intended to thwart any observation that gays and lesbians are no less welcome and loved by Christ than straights and no less deserving of Christian rites, and intended to further his campaign to further alienate gays and lesbians from the Church. All to further his campaign to keep his world as comfortably homogenous as possible. The reality is that Mao is struggling with the reality that the Church and the world are changing in ways that he can't tolerate because it's only illuminating his discriminatory leanings and isolating him and Yvonne from what is quickly becoming the new main stream, while people like them are growing quickly irrelevant and extinct.

Quote:

esp123 wrote:
Don’t want to give this dumpster fire more oxygen, but what is wrong with both Yvonne and Mao?

Yvonne posts about some harebrained homophobic theories related to the Catholic church crisis, but then Mao posts an article arguing Matt Shepard’s death wasn’t a hate crime, that he was killed because both Shepard and his killers were meth addicts? (BTW, according to the article police say toxicology reports do not back that up)

Yvonne seems addlebrained, but Mao’s post seems gratuitous, almost mean-spirited, under the guise of ignorance. What was the point, but to bring down the memory of Shepard, an attempt to undervalue Shepard’s life, what Mao calls a “hagiography.” I would note that most people, even Jesus of Nazereth, were/are hagiographed after death, particularly violent deaths.


Posted on: 2018/10/27 14:06
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Ah, esp123. You seem to relish in demonizing people you don’t agree with. Ad hominem upon ad hominem. Considering how you last posted at 2ish in the morning, this is not helping you sleep at night either. The article also said those toxicology reports were not presented to the reporter, so he couldn’t know for sure. Even if they weren’t under the influence, the drug dealing association makes the motives more complex.

Of course we shouldn’t speak ill of the dead, but we shouldn’t be so quick to canonize them either, especially for political ends. At the Last Judgement, every thought, word, deed will be laid bare for all to see. Some people once they hear this find it so horrifying they will do all sorts of mental acrobatics to convince themselves it’s all a fairytale, but for many people of faith it’s a good reason to be a better person and give others the benefit of the doubt.

Posted on: 2018/10/27 13:46
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Don’t want to give this dumpster fire more oxygen, but what is wrong with both Yvonne and Mao?

Yvonne posts about some harebrained homophobic theories related to the Catholic church crisis, but then Mao posts an article arguing Matt Shepard’s death wasn’t a hate crime, that he was killed because both Shepard and his killers were meth addicts? (BTW, according to the article police say toxicology reports do not back that up)

Yvonne seems addlebrained, but Mao’s post seems gratuitous, almost mean-spirited, under the guise of ignorance. What was the point, but to bring down the memory of Shepard, an attempt to undervalue Shepard’s life, what Mao calls a “hagiography.” I would note that most people, even Jesus of Nazereth, were/are hagiographed after death, particularly violent deaths.


Posted on: 2018/10/27 6:11
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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I wish everyone would just ignore Yvonne, she is an ignorant, self serving recalcitrant and we are only adding fuel to her fire. Use your energy on something more positive. You can't fix stupidity. If we ignore her she will go away. She's not worth it.

Posted on: 2018/10/26 23:26
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Well, I have not followed the Shepard thing too closely but I know that the gay reporter who did an in depth book that challenged the hagiography faced lots of retaliation. Here's an interview transcript on NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2013/10/06/2264381 ... behind-an-infamous-murder

Posted on: 2018/10/26 16:18
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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https://twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1055806579952574465

As #Synod2018 delegates debate whether even to mention LGBT people in their final document, Matthew Shepard, who was beaten and killed for being gay, is laid to rest at Washington National Cathedral. In today's Gospel, Jesus asks, "Why can you not read the signs of the times?" James Martin, SJS

Posted on: 2018/10/26 13:06
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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As usual, Yvonne, you missed my point entirely. But by the way, most men who rape women don't even get arrested as most women don't report rape. There's no percentage in it.

Posted on: 2018/10/26 12:43
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
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Yvonne, you should not be allowed to vote. You're sick and hateful. Going to Church does nothing for your soul.

Posted on: 2018/10/26 11:58
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
#31
Home away from home
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Quote:

K-Lo2 wrote:
And since straight men are the ones who generally rape women, we shouldn't let them out of their homes?


So you are justifying rape of minors and adult men in the seminary who do not want this to happen to them? Men who rape women go to jail, the same should happen to gay men in the priesthood and their bishops who cover it up.

Posted on: 2018/10/25 21:26
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
#30
Home away from home
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And since straight men are the ones who generally rape women, we shouldn't let them out of their homes?

Posted on: 2018/10/25 20:51
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
#29
Home away from home
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Thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery.

Posted on: 2018/10/25 20:27
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
#28
Home away from home
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There are many priests who are speaking up including Bishop Robert Barron of Word of Fire. He has created videos on the church. I can think of some priests in JC which I will not name for their own safety who has said the same thing. Attacking me and calling me names does not change the fact that the Catholic Church has paid out $4.4 billion over a period of time to mostly males who were raped by gay men in the church. You don't like what is happening, Sutherland, neither do I. So gay men should not enter the church as priests and the problem will be solved.

Posted on: 2018/10/25 20:08
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Re: Chicago Church, Father Paul and Jersey City
#27
Home away from home
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Posted on: 2018/10/25 18:34
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