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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
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@Mao – Calling someone like me who finds your position on the Catholic abuse scandal both inconsistent and hypocritical as revealing a “hysterical hatred of Christianity” is untrue, and suggestive of hysteria on your part, actually.

I’m neither a contemporary nun or renewed laity or a recovering Catholic, but find your inference that those who are must then be “anti-Christian” presumptuous. What, only pre-Vatican 2 practitioners are “real” Christians according to you? Your suggestion that there is only one proscribed way to be a Catholic, and any other way is somehow “anti-Christian” is puzzling and frankly, arrogant.

@Yvonne- Please stop. Your arguments are likewise full of inconsistencies, but at least Mao does not make readers feel like they are going around in circles trying to reason with an 8-year old.

You blame the Catholic abuse scandal on homosexuality by insisting that gay men are predisposed to taking on adolescent lovers, and keep mentioning Corey Feldman’s Hollywood sex ring. In reality, the Hollywood casting couch involves lots of heterosexual predators too? Female teen models are preyed upon by unscrupulous photographers, and Weinstein, Ailes, Moonves victims were as far as we know, all women. And what of men who take child brides, apparently not just limited to polygamous cults. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/r ... _5a05f4f8e4b0e37d2f37573d

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Mao wrote:
Dear Esp-

Are you a contemporary nun, perhaps? Or a lay person in charge of some "renewal." Or a recovering Catholic?...

Anyway, anyone coming from your perspective with a kind of hysterical hatred of Christianity, should be overjoyed at the incredible auto demolition of the Catholic church.

Posted on: 9/5 21:45
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These Catholic lay reporterswho are not connected to the Catholic church financially do an excellent job reporting on the scandal which also includes the Archdiocese of Newark, which covers northern NJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uLWladUd1Y

Posted on: 9/5 19:40
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Yvonne wrote:
Bike Lane, you keep focusing that there is a difference between men who have sex with children and adults. I do not agree.


You’re right. I just cannot get past this. There is a very real difference, and I cannot fathom that a stable adult would try to reason otherwise.

And even if you don’t understand that, I hope the church fathers do.

Posted on: 9/5 17:53
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Bike Lane, you keep focusing that there is a difference between men who have sex with children and adults. I do not agree, yes, not every gay man has a child lover but enough do. Even Oscar Wilde, in his homosexuality trial in which he beat the charges said it is part of the culture for homosexual men to have younger men. I am paraphrasing his exact words. Wilde said his younger man was 21 which was the legal age of consent, he was not going to admit to a younger age. The late Harvey Milk had a teen lover. People will say this is pedophilia, baloney, I don’t agree. According to the 2004 report by John Jay College on sex abuse in the church, 95% of the victims were teenagers, not young children.

Posted on: 9/5 16:46
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Incidentally, while i do not like Cardinal McCarrick and didn't like him when I was in the seminary, it can't go unnoticed that he was found guilty by a Court of law of absolutely nothing. With regard to the claim that he sexually assaulted children there is one allegation from an old dude that something happened like 50 years ago. Then more recently another allegation that something happened like 20 years ago to some kid when he was 16. But no legal findings at all.



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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
You are wrong Bike Lane, McCarrick victimized an 11 year old, and a 16 year old. There were payments made, I believe this happened in New York. In fact, here is the story, when John O'Connor was dying of cancer, he was the cardinal of New York at St. Patrick, he few to Rome and told John Paul 2, not to make him cardinal of New York. The one thing about the Catholic Church according to the investigators in Pennsylvania, they wrote everything down. Nothing was destroyed.


What part did I get wrong? I said he abused children because he was an animal. What you just posted supports that positon, no?

Posted on: 9/5 16:38
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If all Bloops are Razzies and all Razzies are Lazzies, then all Bloops are definitely Lazzies?


#sub Bloops and Razzies

Posted on: 9/5 16:32
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Yvonne wrote:
You are wrong Bike Lane, McCarrick victimized an 11 year old, and a 16 year old. There were payments made, I believe this happened in New York. In fact, here is the story, when John O'Connor was dying of cancer, he was the cardinal of New York at St. Patrick, he few to Rome and told John Paul 2, not to make him cardinal of New York. The one thing about the Catholic Church according to the investigators in Pennsylvania, they wrote everything down. Nothing was destroyed.


What part did I get wrong? I said he abused children because he was an animal. What you just posted supports that positon, no?

Posted on: 9/5 16:03
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You are wrong Bike Lane, McCarrick victimized an 11 year old, and a 16 year old. There were payments made, I believe this happened in New York. In fact, here is the story, when John O'Connor was dying of cancer, he was the cardinal of New York at St. Patrick, he few to Rome and told John Paul 2, not to make him cardinal of New York. The one thing about the Catholic Church according to the investigators in Pennsylvania, they wrote everything down. Nothing was destroyed.

Posted on: 9/5 15:09
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I don't believe in the nonsense that this is pedophilia. As these men go up in the ranks and become bishops, they also abuse seminarians. McCarrick is an example of man who went through the ranks and abuse minors and men in their 20s.


You keep repeating this over and over and over, and it's pure nonsense. McCarrick didn't abuse children because he was homosexual. He abused children because he was a sick animal. In your mind, maybe that's the same thing so the distinction doesn't matter to you??

Posted on: 9/5 13:33
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Sutherland wrote:
So you're saying that men who have consensual sex with other men, then become abusive? So having consensual sex leads to being a sexual predator?

Also, what are you referring to when you say that someone who complained was thrown out?

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
The problem goes from consensual sex to abuse. In the case of the seminarians, they were abused by men who were their boss. Some men were kicked out because they complained. If a man states clearly on his application form that he is a homosexual, he would not be admitted. There are rules about this.



If they are used to have sex with other men in the seminary and later as a priest in which they are placed by themselves without their partner, absolutely yes. I don't believe in the nonsense that this is pedophilia. As these men go up in the ranks and become bishops, they also abuse seminarians. McCarrick is an example of man who went through the ranks and abuse minors and men in their 20s.

Posted on: 9/5 13:12
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So you're saying that men who have consensual sex with other men, then become abusive? So having consensual sex leads to being a sexual predator?

Also, what are you referring to when you say that someone who complained was thrown out?

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The problem goes from consensual sex to abuse. In the case of the seminarians, they were abused by men who were their boss. Some men were kicked out because they complained. If a man states clearly on his application form that he is a homosexual, he would not be admitted. There are rules about this.

Posted on: 9/5 12:45
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Posted on: 9/5 12:41
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All the abusers were men.

So perhaps Yvonne should demand that all men be expelled from the Priesthood and positions of authority in the church.



The pope did ask for the resignation of bishops in some South American country and he accepted 3 of them. I want an investigation by the feds and I want an investigation by the laity. No one can investigate themselves. The people who are involved in sexual abuse are probably involved in financial abuse.

Posted on: 9/5 12:28
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All the abusers were men.

So perhaps Yvonne should demand that all men be expelled from the Priesthood and positions of authority in the church.

Posted on: 9/5 12:10
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Here is an article of men, priests caught in a lewd act, one of the men came here from Columbia. If you remember, gay men in Columbia were thrown out of seminaries there but came to the US becasue we are "liberals."


Listen, you dolt: someone already corrected you on this, but you just keep doing it. It is NOT Columbia. It is COLOMBIA. In English and the native Spanish it is written the same way. Why are you so dense and stubborn about this stuff?? It reminds me of your arguing with people over your incorrect use of "WW 11" instead of the correct "WW II" in which you kept insisting "11" was the same as "2".

It is truly almost impossible to believe (and, really, sad and demoralizing!) that you were a teacher. I feel bad for all those children that were subjected to you as a teacher.

Posted on: 9/5 11:46
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I am not going to lie and say heterosexual also fail at keeping their vows. But the rate is much smaller than the rate for homosexual men. I don't know the percentage of men who are gay, some studies say 2% other much higher. It doesn't matter, apparently keeping vows of chastity is more difficult for homosexual men and they should avoid a Catholic seminary.

Posted on: 9/5 11:16
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Yvonne wrote:
Bike Lane, no man in the seminary in the Catholic Church should be having consensual sex. That is not how it works.


They shouldn't be, but they sometimes do.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
If you want consensual sex with another man, then do not enter the Catholic Church.


And if they want consensual sex with women, they shouldn't enter the church either. For as long as those are the rules, I don't disagree.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
The problem goes from consensual sex to abuse. In the case of the seminarians, they were abused by men who were their boss. Some men were kicked out because they complained. If a man states clearly on his application form that he is a homosexual, he would not be admitted. There are rules about this.


Sexual assault is a problem and the church needs to deal with it instead of hiding it. And once again, homosexual is not synonymous with predator. That's the point that you aren't grasping. Sexual assaults are sexual predator problems, not homosexual problems.

Posted on: 9/5 11:03
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Yvonne, I guess you need to keep heterosexuals out too.

"Priests fathering children has been a fact of church life for so long that the Irish, to name just one example, have put a name to it. The Irish surname McEntaggart, for instance, comes from the Gaelic for “son of a priest,” while the surname McAnespi is commonly thought to mean “son of a bishop.”"

"THOUGH CHURCH LEADERS seldom discuss it, evidence that priests fathering children is a systemic problem within the church has grown steadily more urgent — and public — over the last 30 years.

In the 1990s, leaders of several women’s religious orders issued a series of confidential reports to the Vatican saying that the sexual abuse of nuns by priests living in Africa and other parts of the developing world required immediate attention. One report described a 1988 incident in Malawi in which the local bishop dismissed leaders of a women’s congregation after they complained that local priests had impregnated 29 sisters."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017 ... AxZYJBi8XxiaqN/story.html


Posted on: 9/5 10:53
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Bike Lane, no man in the seminary in the Catholic Church should be having consensual sex. That is not how it works. If you want consensual sex with another man, then do not enter the Catholic Church. The problem goes from consensual sex to abuse. In the case of the seminarians, they were abused by men who were their boss. Some men were kicked out because they complained. If a man states clearly on his application form that he is a homosexual, he would not be admitted. There are rules about this.

Posted on: 9/5 10:45
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Yvonne wrote:
Here is an article of men, priests caught in a lewd act, one of the men came here from Columbia. If you remember, gay men in Columbia were thrown out of seminaries there but came to the US becasue we are "liberals." Then ther are issues of child porn. Deny it all you want to but, here is facts. Homosexual men have entered theseminaries. It does not matter who they have sex with, either men or minors. I will not back away from the truth, To copy your sentence, the church is full of homosexual men who are sexually active with men and minors. A house cleaning is in order.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new ... o-shuttered-program-69513


Jesus, Yvonne. Yes, it does matter whether priests are having sex with men or minors. It matters a GREAT deal. You've repeatedly stated that you believe otherwise and that is SICK. SICK, SICK, SICK.

You keep mentioning that most of the sex (consensual or not) with seminarians is between men. When did the Catholic church start admitting women to seminary?

Homosexuals are men who prefer sex and/or intimate relationships with other men. Predators who prey on children are not the same thing. Some predators target boys, some predators target girls, some predators target both. But let's be clear. The Church doesn't have a homosexual problem. It has a predator problem and a predator-enabling problem.

But, hey, one bishop says it's all the gays' fault, so let's just keep posting that opinion over and over and over again, eh?

Posted on: 9/5 10:33
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Dear Esp-

In comparison to JP II and Francis, Benedict moved decisively against priest abusers . Again, this comparative. Benedict was not a raging St. Damian which is what the church seems to need.

Btw, I don't undrstand your animus against Catholic liturgy and dogma, nor your strongly felt feelings about inter mural conversations in Catholicism concerning the nature of dogma and worship.

Are you a contemporary nun, perhaps? Or a lay person in charge of some "renewal." Or a recovering Catholic?

Anyone looking at Catholicism knows that, even more than in most religions, tradition is a crucial concept. It is fundamental that Catholics believe that Divine Revelation came to an end in the Apostolic Age, and that the job of the Church is to preserve this revelation and explicate it- but never to change it. (See, for example, Newman, The Development of Doctrine). In fact, most Christians, including Protestants and Orthodox, probably agree with this statement.

Anyway, anyone coming from your perspective with a kind of hysterical hatred of Christianity, should be overjoyed at the incredible auto demolition of the Catholic church. However, I fear that the world will find that it is not better off without the Church. See for example, Stark, Rodney, Bearing False Witness. http://www.baylorisr.org/2016/10/28/i ... -against-catholic-church/

Yours,

Mao

Posted on: 9/5 10:15
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41. “Lead A Child Astray? You’d Be Better Off Drowned!” – Jesus

Matthew 18:6
“But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! …

10 “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.”

“How we treat children matters to God”

Jesus had used a small child, (who knows, it may even have been a female), to teach his disciples a basic lesson about the Kingdom of God. The relatively insignificant social status of a child challenged pride and commended humility. The child then became a vehicle for designating his followers whether young or old. To harm one of “these little ones” was to court the judgement of God.

The Law of the Kingdom of God is love; love towards God and love towards others. To offend against that Law in any form is to incur God’s just judgement. To practice harm to any, especially children, – for in the Bible they are recognized as belonging to that group of vulnerable people who deserve particular care and protection – is to offend grievously against the One who has a special regard for the vulnerable. In fact, it is, as Jesus said, better to be plunged heavily weighted into the sea, than to face the justice of the God who is Love, for being cruel to a child.

Harry Goodhew

Posted on: 9/5 10:01
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K-Lo2 wrote:
As an outsider, I truly hadn't realize that dogma dictates how to cover for criminals within the church. Can you point to which of Christ's sermons covers such doctrine?



There is a sermon about corrupting the 'little one." As I said before, a housing cleaning is in order.

Posted on: 9/5 9:52
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As an outsider, I truly hadn't realize that dogma dictates how to cover for criminals within the church. Can you point to which of Christ's sermons covers such doctrine?

Posted on: 9/5 9:04
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I am always amused when non-Catholics try to dictate to Catholics changes in their doctrine or dogma that they say will improve the Church they do not attend. Particularly when it comes to Catholics dealing with the criminal activities within their own church. I liken it to democrats “helping” republicans improve their image and become a better republican party.

I am not dismissing the right of anyone to publicly express an opinion or criticize any institution. At times I would love to sarcastically dismiss their opinions by saying “You wouldn’t understand, it’s a Catholic thing” but I find the use of that colloquial phrase offensive to any rationally thinking person. Arresting and prosecuting these men is paramount… all the other steps to cleanse the Church is the responsibility of the Catholic laity because the clergy have failed us repeatedly. And all the clergy participating in the moral outrage need to go… especially those covering it up.

The starting point is back to basics with the orthodox church doctrine… laity can have all the public discourse they want, but if they are ultimately not happy with the church, they need to consider leaving. This is the schism this scandal has created… and it ultimately comes down to one’s own conscience and relationship with God. All this coming from a “lapsed Catholic”.

Posted on: 9/5 8:23
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Here is an article of men, priests caught in a lewd act, one of the men came here from Columbia. If you remember, gay men in Columbia were thrown out of seminaries there but came to the US becasue we are "liberals." Then ther are issues of child porn. Deny it all you want to but, here is facts. Homosexual men have entered theseminaries. It does not matter who they have sex with, either men or minors. I will not back away from the truth, To copy your sentence, the church is full of homosexual men who are sexually active with men and minors. A house cleaning is in order.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new ... o-shuttered-program-69513

Posted on: 9/5 6:44
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Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

papadage wrote:
McCarrick was removed only after the public found about about the abuses and cover up, you despicable person. God have mercy on your shriveled soul.

What about the entire hierarchy that covered it up with McCarrick, you ass?


Here is the problm papadage, sure attack the Church not the gay men who created the problem. This reminds of an article I read some years ago after Obama got rid of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Apparently, rapes against men by men are on the rise in the military. It is time the gay community hold gay men accountable for their actions. Every sex act is an indivudual act. The Church is absolutely wrong for covering it up but there would be no need for a cover up if the crime did not happen first. http://www.courant.com/news/connectic ... sault-20161129-story.html


Church full of doddering assholes that covers for abuse attracts a doddering worshiper that does the same.

Posted on: 9/4 22:59
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https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-de ... se-in-the-catholic-church

@ Mao - we can ask you the same. Why the selective outrage on your part? You basically praise Benedict, call him a "genius" while you've raged at Francis? And Benedict was apparently protecting his brother, also a priest

You are being disingenuous. As an ultra-conservative Tridentine-Mass Catholic, you seem as outraged about Vatican 2 as you are about the child abuse scandal, and seemingly using the latter as an excuse to get rid of a progressive pope you do not like.
Your selective outrage is hypocritical. Because the fact is Benedict, Francis, John Paul, they were all complicit, morally corrupt in putting power and the institution over children and their flock.

The Catholic church is a non-taxed, "non-profit" institution whose 'mission' is supposedly the psychological and emotional welfare of its flock above riches & power. Yet in practice it has too often been about the power and riches. Pope Francis seems to be less about the riches and pomp and pageantry, though maybe just as much into the power. This bothers you apparently in large part because the Tridentine Mass is much about pomp and pageantry.

Posted on: 9/4 18:46

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papadage wrote:
McCarrick was removed only after the public found about about the abuses and cover up, you despicable person. God have mercy on your shriveled soul.

What about the entire hierarchy that covered it up with McCarrick, you ass?


Here is the problm papadage, sure attack the Church not the gay men who created the problem. This reminds of an article I read some years ago after Obama got rid of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Apparently, rapes against men by men are on the rise in the military. It is time the gay community hold gay men accountable for their actions. Every sex act is an indivudual act. The Church is absolutely wrong for covering it up but there would be no need for a cover up if the crime did not happen first. http://www.courant.com/news/connectic ... sault-20161129-story.html

Posted on: 9/4 18:30
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I couldn't care about either of them. The Church as a whole is complicit in this. The entire hierarchy is criminal.

Every pope. Every cardinal. Every bishop. Anyone who helped cover this up should be in prison.

Posted on: 9/4 17:34
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