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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
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I also suspect Mao's a former seminarian or religious, (not a Jesuit). Probably a Franciscan (OFM) maybe diocesan. I imagine he's never actually practiced law.

Despite his knowledge, his logic goes far afield of reality. It's too much of a stretch to associate ancient Greek and Christian philosophy to a contemporary crises, at least they way Mao does. The history of scandal in the church goes beyond sex and includes more financial, especially from the middle (dark) ages.

The association of perspectives on sexual orientation from 500 years ago or more to managing abuse today is as useful and applicable as wearing a snorkle coat on a rainy day in July.

Homophobia is more a cause of the Church's crises than the solution. It deteriorates ones' self esteem, leaving them emotionally arrested. This is more likely the cause of the problem than Mao's far stretching hypothesis about Aristophanes' reach to contemporary mores.




Posted on: 9/7 8:28
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esp123 wrote:
Wow. Mao may be more articulate, but he and Yvonne really are cut from the same cloth.

Both cite sources supporting their position, ignorantly or disingenuously offered by Yvonne and Mao as being even near reliable authorities, when their sources are no where near that.

Yvonne’s YouTube video is produced by https://www.churchmilitant.com/ an ultra-right wing not at all mainstream Catholic group.

Mao’s source, Benjamin Wiker, is a fringe nut, an individual who like Mao may be articulate, but nonetheless hides simple-minded thinking and bigotry better than those less educated.

Benjamim Wiker thinks Darwinism is against natural law. From wiki: “John M. Lynch in a review for Wiker’s book The Darwin Myth in the Journal of the History of Biology has dismissed Wiker's claims as irrational.[5] In a review, Sander Gliboff, a Professor of the History and Philosophy of Science at Indiana University, has written that Wiker's biographical interpretations of Darwin "verge on fantasy".[6]

Benjamin Wiker is also written up in the blog Encyclopedia of American Loons, lol. https://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/02/415-benjamin-wiker.html

@ Mao – reading some of your prior posts, you’re a lawyer and yet cite an article by Wikers to make your argument? Another example that education is no guarantee of common sense or critical thinking, I guess.


For the information, Church Militant is not the only Catholic source saying this, there are many others. You do not like the facts so like others, let's attack the source instead of hearing the truth. The truth is - gay men are in the church who are attacking youth as well as other men. This is what Stalin told Bella Dodd to do in the 1920s and 1930s because Stalin said you cannot attack the church on the outside but only on the inside. I just found out that Bella Dodd did speak before Congress about Communist in the US. She also wrote on this subject.
https://www.amazon.com/Aa-1025-Memoirs ... bRopM1nL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

Posted on: 9/6 23:14
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I meant *gentle* (phrase you used) - not "softly"

Posted on: 9/6 20:24
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Mao –
Whether some historian with a fundamentalist-worldview pronounces that the ancient world was against homosexuality ‘softly’ or not, you're suggesting if modern society views gay people as normal human beings that this will somehow lead to the fall of civilization, bc that would lead to the slippery slope to condoning child abuse?!?

Honestly, that seems nuts, verging on hysteria, but that's the inference you were attempting to promote by first posting Ben Wikers article, and when someone calls you out on it, you try to deflect with more blah, blah, blah & high-brow allusions and professorial language that basically just masks that underneath it all, youre promote a bigoted world view with fallacious reasoning and intellectual dishonesty. That's not what I would call trying to advance the conversation.


Posted on: 9/6 19:24
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Dear Esp123:

Ad hominems are really not a way of advancing a conversation.

I was aware the Wilker critiques Darwinism. Natural Selection is a very helpful and productive hypothesis. But is one a loon to point out that it has limitations and that it is erroneous to make it a religion? There are issues about whether random natural selection could account for the existing bio diversity given the known existence of earth. More worrisome still, recall that Social Darwinism had some very evil spawn that supported racism, eugenics, and helped support Nazi ideology.

But anyway, you deflect from the topic at hand.

You are correct that I am a lawyer, but my undergrad degree is in Latin and Ancient Greek and teach Latin as an adjunct in college now. . I also did some work towards a Masters Degree in Classics.

I do think that Wilker overstates the acceptance of homosexuality in the ancient world. But so did most classics professors at Columbia University where I studied. The Classics department was rabidly anti Christian, seeing it as the force that had destroyed the ancient world. Several of the professors were openly homosexual. But even the heterosexuals liked to play up homosexuality in the ancient world as a model for ours.

In fact, the actual reality was more complex. While it was only the Jews (and later the Christians) who abhorred homosexuality, many others sort of merely found it distasteful or unpleasant. I think Marcus Aurelius might have tried to outlaw it. Aristophanes ridiculed all homosexual relationships including pederasty in manner that today would be termed homophobic. But it was a gentle homophobia compared to the raging of Leviticus or St. Paul.

I googled and got this paper by a college student which shows some of the complexity of the ancient world. https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/18 ... 1/James_Gentry_thesis.pdf

Anyway, there are two current trends that make it all complicated. On the one hand, there is a trend to sexualize childhood and to assume that children have a right to sex lives. That is the premise of most sex education in schools. It is brutal and anti Christian and treats any reservation about your little one' orgiastic life as being- how would you term it- loony. A normally far left coworker was having a meltdown yesterday because her 11 year old daughter's best friend had announced she was a Lesbian. My coworker is behind the times.

The other trend is to emphasis a rigid type of consent to sexual activity e g the Antioch code. How this will end up and where the age of consent will land will be a thing to watch.

I think there are psychological bases apart from Jewish or Christian teachings that could keep age of consent laws in place. Let's hope so!

Yours,

Mao


Posted on: 9/6 17:02
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Wow. Mao may be more articulate, but he and Yvonne really are cut from the same cloth.

Both cite sources supporting their position, ignorantly or disingenuously offered by Yvonne and Mao as being even near reliable authorities, when their sources are no where near that.

Yvonne’s YouTube video is produced by https://www.churchmilitant.com/ an ultra-right wing not at all mainstream Catholic group.

Mao’s source, Benjamin Wiker, is a fringe nut, an individual who like Mao may be articulate, but nonetheless hides simple-minded thinking and bigotry better than those less educated.

Benjamim Wiker thinks Darwinism is against natural law. From wiki: “John M. Lynch in a review for Wiker’s book The Darwin Myth in the Journal of the History of Biology has dismissed Wiker's claims as irrational.[5] In a review, Sander Gliboff, a Professor of the History and Philosophy of Science at Indiana University, has written that Wiker's biographical interpretations of Darwin "verge on fantasy".[6]

Benjamin Wiker is also written up in the blog Encyclopedia of American Loons, lol. https://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/02/415-benjamin-wiker.html

@ Mao – reading some of your prior posts, you’re a lawyer and yet cite an article by Wikers to make your argument? Another example that education is no guarantee of common sense or critical thinking, I guess.

Posted on: 9/6 15:57

Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/6 16:12:15
Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/6 16:16:42
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Posted on: 9/6 14:49
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From a Moral-Historical Perspective, This Crisis is Worse Than You Realize. There is nothing, nothing, that undermines the authority of the Church more quickly and thoroughly than this devilish marriage of scandal and hypocrisy.


by
Benjamin Wiker

Contrary to Cardinal Donald Wuerl’s early and oft-quoted assessment, the Catholic Church is in fact facing a “massive, massive crisis.” Greater clarity about the nature of this crisis can be had by looking at the larger moral-historical perspective.

There is only one reason why pedophilia is even a moral issue today: historically, the Catholic Church made it one. Sex with boys and girls, but especially boys, was an accepted part of ancient Greek and Roman culture, the culture into which Christ Himself, and hence the Church, was born. Christianity rejected this common pagan sexual practice as a distortion of sexuality, and evangelized accordingly. If it were not for the success of Christianity’s evangelical efforts, the laws against pedophilia still on the books today would never have been there at all.

To give this historical sketch some important details, the most desirable age of men seeking sex with boys in ancient Greece and Rome was the 12-18 year old range, when the boys were blossoming into sexual maturity on their way to becoming men. In short, homosexual activity was defined primarily by pedophilia. There were no artificial distinctions between homosexuality, pedophilia, ephebophilia (sex with someone between 12-14) and hebephilia (sex with someone 15-18). There was simply the culturally commonplace desire of men to have sex with boys from ages 12-18.

Moreover, pedophilia with boys was not confined to a few perverted individuals with exclusively homosexual orientation. The great majority of men engaged in it as an accepted part of Greco-Roman culture, whether they were (as we would designate them) homosexual or heterosexual. Thus, pedophilia was not a moral issue, but a cultural practice engaged in by most men. (This is an important point that I’ll take up in a future article, because it means that our current attempt to fix a definite homosexual “percentage” in the population, say 2 percent or 10 percent, doesn’t take into account that homosexuality and pedophilia can spread to the majority through a deformed culture.)

That was precisely the situation in ancient pagan Greece and Rome. Then came Christ. Christianity made pedophilia a moral issue. As Christianity slowly evangelized the pagan Roman Empire, the widespread acceptance of men having sex with boys was replaced by widespread moral revulsion (and the appearance of anti-pedophilia laws that followed upon it). The same is true as well for homosexuality, sexual slavery, abortion, infanticide and euthanasia. They became moral issues, rather than accepted pagan social practices, only because of Christian evangelization.

Here are the lessons we must learn from this history.

The sole reason that there are still secular laws on the books that prohibit and punish pedophilia is that Christianity came to dominate culture in the West through evangelization. The only reason that we have accepted homosexuality in culture and in law is the increasing de-Christianization of the culture in the West. As we become even more secularized (i.e., repaganized), pedophilia will soon be accepted, just as homosexuality, abortion, infanticide, and euthanasia have already been embraced.

This is a massive, massive crisis in and for the Church because a deeply-embedded worldwide homosexual network among our priests, bishops, and cardinals is actively engaged in bringing about the full de-Christianization of the world by preying on boys between 12-18, literally recreating Greco-Roman sexual culture in our seminaries and dioceses. If you want to know what it was like in the sordid sexual days of ancient Greece and Rome, just read the Pennsylvania Report.


That’s a rather horrible irony, isn’t it? The very men most authoritatively charged with the evangelization of all the nations are full-steam ahead bringing about the devangelization of the nations. In doing so, these priests, bishops, and cardinals at the very heart of the Catholic Church are acting as willing agents of repaganization, undoing 2,000 years of Church History.

To be even more pointed, these priests, bishops, and cardinals are the chief agents of devangelization, de-Christianization, repaganization. There is nothing, nothing, that undermines the moral and theological authority of the magisterium more quickly and thoroughly than the devilish marriage of scandal and hypocrisy. It destroys the ability to evangelize.

And note that I say both moral and theological. Why should anyone now take anything the magisterium has to say seriously, whether it’s the Church’s teachings about pedophilia and homosexuality, or its teachings on the Most Holy Trinity?

Is that massive, massive enough of a crisis for you, Cardinal Wuerl? Could you imagine it being any more massive?

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Posted on: 9/6 11:51
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The answer is no Bike Lane, I am not interested in what he has to say. But I am interested in cleaning up the Church.

Posted on: 9/6 7:56
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Yvonne wrote:
These Catholic lay reporterswho are not connected to the Catholic church financially do an excellent job reporting on the scandal which also includes the Archdiocese of Newark, which covers northern NJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uLWladUd1Y


Yeah that’s legit. Did you forget to post this one too? https://youtu.be/_ePLkAm8i2s

Posted on: 9/5 22:20
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@Mao – Calling someone like me who finds your position on the Catholic abuse scandal both inconsistent and hypocritical as revealing a “hysterical hatred of Christianity” is untrue, and suggestive of hysteria on your part, actually.

I’m neither a contemporary nun or renewed laity or a recovering Catholic, but find your inference that those who are must then be “anti-Christian” presumptuous. What, only pre-Vatican 2 practitioners are “real” Christians according to you? Your suggestion that there is only one proscribed way to be a Catholic, and any other way is somehow “anti-Christian” is puzzling and frankly, arrogant.

@Yvonne- Please stop. Your arguments are likewise full of inconsistencies, but at least Mao does not make readers feel like they are going around in circles trying to reason with an 8-year old.

You blame the Catholic abuse scandal on homosexuality by insisting that gay men are predisposed to taking on adolescent lovers, and keep mentioning Corey Feldman’s Hollywood sex ring. In reality, the Hollywood casting couch involves lots of heterosexual predators too? Female teen models are preyed upon by unscrupulous photographers, and Weinstein, Ailes, Moonves victims were as far as we know, all women. And what of men who take child brides, apparently not just limited to polygamous cults. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/r ... _5a05f4f8e4b0e37d2f37573d

[quote]
Mao wrote:
Dear Esp-

Are you a contemporary nun, perhaps? Or a lay person in charge of some "renewal." Or a recovering Catholic?...

Anyway, anyone coming from your perspective with a kind of hysterical hatred of Christianity, should be overjoyed at the incredible auto demolition of the Catholic church.

Posted on: 9/5 21:45
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These Catholic lay reporterswho are not connected to the Catholic church financially do an excellent job reporting on the scandal which also includes the Archdiocese of Newark, which covers northern NJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uLWladUd1Y

Posted on: 9/5 19:40
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Yvonne wrote:
Bike Lane, you keep focusing that there is a difference between men who have sex with children and adults. I do not agree.


You’re right. I just cannot get past this. There is a very real difference, and I cannot fathom that a stable adult would try to reason otherwise.

And even if you don’t understand that, I hope the church fathers do.

Posted on: 9/5 17:53
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Bike Lane, you keep focusing that there is a difference between men who have sex with children and adults. I do not agree, yes, not every gay man has a child lover but enough do. Even Oscar Wilde, in his homosexuality trial in which he beat the charges said it is part of the culture for homosexual men to have younger men. I am paraphrasing his exact words. Wilde said his younger man was 21 which was the legal age of consent, he was not going to admit to a younger age. The late Harvey Milk had a teen lover. People will say this is pedophilia, baloney, I don’t agree. According to the 2004 report by John Jay College on sex abuse in the church, 95% of the victims were teenagers, not young children.

Posted on: 9/5 16:46
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Incidentally, while i do not like Cardinal McCarrick and didn't like him when I was in the seminary, it can't go unnoticed that he was found guilty by a Court of law of absolutely nothing. With regard to the claim that he sexually assaulted children there is one allegation from an old dude that something happened like 50 years ago. Then more recently another allegation that something happened like 20 years ago to some kid when he was 16. But no legal findings at all.



Quote:

Bike_Lane wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
You are wrong Bike Lane, McCarrick victimized an 11 year old, and a 16 year old. There were payments made, I believe this happened in New York. In fact, here is the story, when John O'Connor was dying of cancer, he was the cardinal of New York at St. Patrick, he few to Rome and told John Paul 2, not to make him cardinal of New York. The one thing about the Catholic Church according to the investigators in Pennsylvania, they wrote everything down. Nothing was destroyed.


What part did I get wrong? I said he abused children because he was an animal. What you just posted supports that positon, no?

Posted on: 9/5 16:38
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If all Bloops are Razzies and all Razzies are Lazzies, then all Bloops are definitely Lazzies?


#sub Bloops and Razzies

Posted on: 9/5 16:32
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Yvonne wrote:
You are wrong Bike Lane, McCarrick victimized an 11 year old, and a 16 year old. There were payments made, I believe this happened in New York. In fact, here is the story, when John O'Connor was dying of cancer, he was the cardinal of New York at St. Patrick, he few to Rome and told John Paul 2, not to make him cardinal of New York. The one thing about the Catholic Church according to the investigators in Pennsylvania, they wrote everything down. Nothing was destroyed.


What part did I get wrong? I said he abused children because he was an animal. What you just posted supports that positon, no?

Posted on: 9/5 16:03
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You are wrong Bike Lane, McCarrick victimized an 11 year old, and a 16 year old. There were payments made, I believe this happened in New York. In fact, here is the story, when John O'Connor was dying of cancer, he was the cardinal of New York at St. Patrick, he few to Rome and told John Paul 2, not to make him cardinal of New York. The one thing about the Catholic Church according to the investigators in Pennsylvania, they wrote everything down. Nothing was destroyed.

Posted on: 9/5 15:09
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Yvonne wrote:
I don't believe in the nonsense that this is pedophilia. As these men go up in the ranks and become bishops, they also abuse seminarians. McCarrick is an example of man who went through the ranks and abuse minors and men in their 20s.


You keep repeating this over and over and over, and it's pure nonsense. McCarrick didn't abuse children because he was homosexual. He abused children because he was a sick animal. In your mind, maybe that's the same thing so the distinction doesn't matter to you??

Posted on: 9/5 13:33
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Sutherland wrote:
So you're saying that men who have consensual sex with other men, then become abusive? So having consensual sex leads to being a sexual predator?

Also, what are you referring to when you say that someone who complained was thrown out?

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
The problem goes from consensual sex to abuse. In the case of the seminarians, they were abused by men who were their boss. Some men were kicked out because they complained. If a man states clearly on his application form that he is a homosexual, he would not be admitted. There are rules about this.



If they are used to have sex with other men in the seminary and later as a priest in which they are placed by themselves without their partner, absolutely yes. I don't believe in the nonsense that this is pedophilia. As these men go up in the ranks and become bishops, they also abuse seminarians. McCarrick is an example of man who went through the ranks and abuse minors and men in their 20s.

Posted on: 9/5 13:12
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So you're saying that men who have consensual sex with other men, then become abusive? So having consensual sex leads to being a sexual predator?

Also, what are you referring to when you say that someone who complained was thrown out?

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
The problem goes from consensual sex to abuse. In the case of the seminarians, they were abused by men who were their boss. Some men were kicked out because they complained. If a man states clearly on his application form that he is a homosexual, he would not be admitted. There are rules about this.

Posted on: 9/5 12:45
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Posted on: 9/5 12:41
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JPhurst wrote:
All the abusers were men.

So perhaps Yvonne should demand that all men be expelled from the Priesthood and positions of authority in the church.



The pope did ask for the resignation of bishops in some South American country and he accepted 3 of them. I want an investigation by the feds and I want an investigation by the laity. No one can investigate themselves. The people who are involved in sexual abuse are probably involved in financial abuse.

Posted on: 9/5 12:28
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All the abusers were men.

So perhaps Yvonne should demand that all men be expelled from the Priesthood and positions of authority in the church.

Posted on: 9/5 12:10
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Yvonne wrote:
Here is an article of men, priests caught in a lewd act, one of the men came here from Columbia. If you remember, gay men in Columbia were thrown out of seminaries there but came to the US becasue we are "liberals."


Listen, you dolt: someone already corrected you on this, but you just keep doing it. It is NOT Columbia. It is COLOMBIA. In English and the native Spanish it is written the same way. Why are you so dense and stubborn about this stuff?? It reminds me of your arguing with people over your incorrect use of "WW 11" instead of the correct "WW II" in which you kept insisting "11" was the same as "2".

It is truly almost impossible to believe (and, really, sad and demoralizing!) that you were a teacher. I feel bad for all those children that were subjected to you as a teacher.

Posted on: 9/5 11:46
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I am not going to lie and say heterosexual also fail at keeping their vows. But the rate is much smaller than the rate for homosexual men. I don't know the percentage of men who are gay, some studies say 2% other much higher. It doesn't matter, apparently keeping vows of chastity is more difficult for homosexual men and they should avoid a Catholic seminary.

Posted on: 9/5 11:16
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Yvonne wrote:
Bike Lane, no man in the seminary in the Catholic Church should be having consensual sex. That is not how it works.


They shouldn't be, but they sometimes do.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
If you want consensual sex with another man, then do not enter the Catholic Church.


And if they want consensual sex with women, they shouldn't enter the church either. For as long as those are the rules, I don't disagree.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
The problem goes from consensual sex to abuse. In the case of the seminarians, they were abused by men who were their boss. Some men were kicked out because they complained. If a man states clearly on his application form that he is a homosexual, he would not be admitted. There are rules about this.


Sexual assault is a problem and the church needs to deal with it instead of hiding it. And once again, homosexual is not synonymous with predator. That's the point that you aren't grasping. Sexual assaults are sexual predator problems, not homosexual problems.

Posted on: 9/5 11:03
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Yvonne, I guess you need to keep heterosexuals out too.

"Priests fathering children has been a fact of church life for so long that the Irish, to name just one example, have put a name to it. The Irish surname McEntaggart, for instance, comes from the Gaelic for “son of a priest,” while the surname McAnespi is commonly thought to mean “son of a bishop.”"

"THOUGH CHURCH LEADERS seldom discuss it, evidence that priests fathering children is a systemic problem within the church has grown steadily more urgent — and public — over the last 30 years.

In the 1990s, leaders of several women’s religious orders issued a series of confidential reports to the Vatican saying that the sexual abuse of nuns by priests living in Africa and other parts of the developing world required immediate attention. One report described a 1988 incident in Malawi in which the local bishop dismissed leaders of a women’s congregation after they complained that local priests had impregnated 29 sisters."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017 ... AxZYJBi8XxiaqN/story.html


Posted on: 9/5 10:53
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
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Bike Lane, no man in the seminary in the Catholic Church should be having consensual sex. That is not how it works. If you want consensual sex with another man, then do not enter the Catholic Church. The problem goes from consensual sex to abuse. In the case of the seminarians, they were abused by men who were their boss. Some men were kicked out because they complained. If a man states clearly on his application form that he is a homosexual, he would not be admitted. There are rules about this.

Posted on: 9/5 10:45
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Here is an article of men, priests caught in a lewd act, one of the men came here from Columbia. If you remember, gay men in Columbia were thrown out of seminaries there but came to the US becasue we are "liberals." Then ther are issues of child porn. Deny it all you want to but, here is facts. Homosexual men have entered theseminaries. It does not matter who they have sex with, either men or minors. I will not back away from the truth, To copy your sentence, the church is full of homosexual men who are sexually active with men and minors. A house cleaning is in order.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new ... o-shuttered-program-69513


Jesus, Yvonne. Yes, it does matter whether priests are having sex with men or minors. It matters a GREAT deal. You've repeatedly stated that you believe otherwise and that is SICK. SICK, SICK, SICK.

You keep mentioning that most of the sex (consensual or not) with seminarians is between men. When did the Catholic church start admitting women to seminary?

Homosexuals are men who prefer sex and/or intimate relationships with other men. Predators who prey on children are not the same thing. Some predators target boys, some predators target girls, some predators target both. But let's be clear. The Church doesn't have a homosexual problem. It has a predator problem and a predator-enabling problem.

But, hey, one bishop says it's all the gays' fault, so let's just keep posting that opinion over and over and over again, eh?

Posted on: 9/5 10:33
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