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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Curious is the Mayor ever had this similar hardline view when he represented Ward E?


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light12v wrote:
In Light of the following Fulop Tweet, why is OP taking a Survey of JC Citizens.....
According to The One to be OBEYED, it is DONE :::

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114

Posted on: 5/5 20:23
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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In Light of the following Fulop Tweet, why is OP taking a Survey of JC Citizens.....
According to The One to be OBEYED, it is DONE :::

https://twitter.com/StevenFulop/status/992762417036890114

Posted on: 5/5 19:28
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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During the ''pro-old-timers'' term of Mayor Anthony Cucci of Jersey City, it was decided to put at Exchange Place a monument to the 1940 massacre of Polish soldiers in the Katyn forest. The 17-foot statue, a cavalryman with a bayonet through his back, is in the middle of what planners call ''the view corridor,'' framed by the World Trade Center Towers. That placement is itself a sort of memorial to the bygone strength of the old ethnic groups.

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/02/15/nyregion/on-the-waterfront.html

Posted on: 5/4 12:05
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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When former mayor Cucci passed away, the pastor from St. Anthony attended the wake. He told me he wanted to pay his respect to the mayor for putting up the Polish monument. As I stated before I believe all monuments should reflect American history. Then a larger Polish community lived in downtown JC which is evident by having two Polish language Catholic Churches, one in Paulus Hook and the other on 6th Street. It is a reflection of Polish history, plain and simple. Fulop's comments are off base.

Posted on: 5/4 9:54
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I would like to know when the city intends to remove the orange barriers outlining what I assume will be the park? Talk about unsightly and unpleasant.

Posted on: 5/4 7:55
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Jersey City, Polish officials trade barbs over massacre statue

The proposed removal of a memorial to the victims of a 1940 Polish massacre is officially an international incident, with Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop and Polish Senator Stanislaw Karczewski trading barbs about plans to find a new home for the statue.

Karczewski, speaker of Poland's senate, said Wednesday on Polish Radio that the push to move the Katyn memorial is "scandalous," while Fulop fired back with an accusation that Karczewski is a "known anti-Semite."

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... ords_over_massacre_s.html


Posted on: 5/4 0:34
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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stillinjc wrote:
Bayonne will take it.


In a twist, Bayonne Mayor Jimmy Davis Thursday evening offered to take the Katyn memorial if Jersey City doesn't want it.

"As mayor I would be proud to have it at one of our many of our wonderful parks, maybe at Rutkowski Park which is named in honor of one of Bayonne's most prominent Polish-American leaders," Davis said in a statement.

Posted on: 5/4 0:01
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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stillinjc wrote:
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I_heart_JC wrote:
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stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.



it's actually the opposite of literal. it is figurative.
first, they died of machine-gun fire (not bayonettes).
the earliest victims of the massacre were Polish military officers who were instructed not to resist the Russians, and were rounded up and imprisoned for their efforts. it was a huge betrayal, in addition to being a war crime.
they were "stabbed in the back" in the figurative sense.


Do you understand expression "way too literal"?

It does not mean "literal".



that is literally insane.

Posted on: 5/3 18:07
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I_heart_JC wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.



it's actually the opposite of literal. it is figurative.
first, they died of machine-gun fire (not bayonettes).
the earliest victims of the massacre were Polish military officers who were instructed not to resist the Russians, and were rounded up and imprisoned for their efforts. it was a huge betrayal, in addition to being a war crime.
they were "stabbed in the back" in the figurative sense.


Do you understand expression "way too literal"?

It does not mean "literal".

"Way too literal" as in depicting murder.

In addition, they were not machine-gunned. They were shot from pistols in the back of the head.

Your point about "backstabbing" is valid. But also too literal to make the art powerful.

You want a powerful war crime (in this case Holocaust) memorial?

Check out the Berlin Holocaust memorial. Yes, different scale entirely, but no drastic sculptures there. They are not needed. The stelae say it all.

Posted on: 5/3 17:29
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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HeightsNative wrote:
Quote:

HeightsNative wrote:
I'm going to make a suggestion, and I will try to stay as respectful as possible. Almost every single thread on here worth debating tends to diverge into a Yvonne vs. the world discussion. Let's try a month of completely ignoring any and all comments from Yvonne. I say that not out of disrespect to Yvonne (despite usually disagreeing with her views), but moreso out of respect for dialogue and discussion. Some of you (bodhipooh, etc.) raise great points and offer something to the discussion, and should keep it focused on that.

Can we at least try it? I mean literally no responding to or acknowledging Yvonne's responses, no matter how left field or out of order they are.


Or don't...


I applaud your effort.

Posted on: 5/3 15:37
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.



it's actually the opposite of literal. it is figurative.
first, they died of machine-gun fire (not bayonettes).
the earliest victims of the massacre were Polish military officers who were instructed not to resist the Russians, and were rounded up and imprisoned for their efforts. it was a huge betrayal, in addition to being a war crime.
they were "stabbed in the back" in the figurative sense.

Posted on: 5/3 15:34
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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CatDog wrote:
Quote:

stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.
What about these?
Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image

(the last one is the irish hunger, not the holocaust)

look, just because you want life to be sunshine and roses doesn't mean it's a bad statue. It's a fantastic statue, and even if it moves, I hope it stays somewhere prominent. It's an icon of this city now, whether you like it or not.


The one that literally depicts murder (gassing with Zyklon B in Auschwitz) seem to be enclosed, so the public can make a choice to view them or not with their eyes wide open.

The others are striking (dead bodies, escapes, etc), but do not depict a graphic act of murder.






Posted on: 5/3 13:19
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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JClist should be renamed, Personal Attack Center, when individuals do not follow the herd. What a shame, this blog as the potential to make positive change.

Posted on: 5/3 11:59
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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HeightsNative wrote:
I'm going to make a suggestion, and I will try to stay as respectful as possible. Almost every single thread on here worth debating tends to diverge into a Yvonne vs. the world discussion. Let's try a month of completely ignoring any and all comments from Yvonne. I say that not out of disrespect to Yvonne (despite usually disagreeing with her views), but moreso out of respect for dialogue and discussion. Some of you (bodhipooh, etc.) raise great points and offer something to the discussion, and should keep it focused on that.

Can we at least try it? I mean literally no responding to or acknowledging Yvonne's responses, no matter how left field or out of order they are.


Or don't...

Posted on: 5/3 11:35
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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CatDog wrote:
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You are an example of a liberal who cannot take another point of view and makes personal attacks, something that is morally wrong because you have no facts.
says the lady whining about liberals that are pointing out how wrong she is. Every time someone calls you out on your BS you start crying about "wahhhh the liberals are being so mean to me" "wahhh it's because I'm a Catholic" "oooooh those mean liberals always trying to correct my lies"

You're over here complaining about statues for foreigners, and then demand we have public statues of religious symbols because there were priests on the ship with Columbus? Columbus, the foreign slave-driving psycopathic torture fanatic that never even set foot in the US?


I think we should replace the statue with a PC-friendly LGBT memorial or shrine. I bet she'll change her tune on Katyn real quick.

Posted on: 5/3 11:25
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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You are an example of a liberal who cannot take another point of view and makes personal attacks, something that is morally wrong because you have no facts.
says the lady whining about liberals that are pointing out how wrong she is. Every time someone calls you out on your BS you start crying about "wahhhh the liberals are being so mean to me" "wahhh it's because I'm a Catholic" "oooooh those mean liberals always trying to correct my lies"

You're over here complaining about statues for foreigners, and then demand we have public statues of religious symbols because there were priests on the ship with Columbus? Columbus, the foreign slave-driving psycopathic torture fanatic that never even set foot in the US?

Posted on: 5/3 10:54
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
It is pathetic that people here do not know priests were on board the ships when Columbus traveled. You want to whitewash history. Columbus was a religious guy. I guess next you want erase Reverend from the title of Dr. King. The correct title is Reverend Dr. King. https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/ ... le/why-did-columbus-sail/
Columbus never set foot in what is now the United States, you nincompoop.


Where did I say Columbus set foot in the US? He did set foot in what later became the New World which includes the US. You are an example of a liberal who cannot take another point of view and makes personal attacks, something that is morally wrong because you have no facts. It is pathetic you and other do this, what a disgrace. I truly feel sorry for anyone that stoops so low in personal attacks because you lack a moral center.

Posted on: 5/3 9:51
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
It is pathetic that people here do not know priests were on board the ships when Columbus traveled. You want to whitewash history. Columbus was a religious guy. I guess next you want erase Reverend from the title of Dr. King. The correct title is Reverend Dr. King. https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/ ... le/why-did-columbus-sail/
Columbus never set foot in what is now the United States, you nincompoop.

Posted on: 5/2 23:33
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
Yes, my comments are far fetching, such as monuments should be a reflection of the US history. After all, I do not see US monuments in other countries especially the Middle East.
Besides loads of WW2 memorials, there are 9/11 memorials in a few countries around the world. A big difference of course, is that the US is a nation of immigrants, and has not sent many immigrants out to other countries.

Posted on: 5/2 23:30
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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stillinjc wrote:
This monument was not meant to be bizarre. If it is perceived that way just signifies that it is artistically bad, way too literal.

You don't create Holocaust memorials depicting corpses being loaded into ovens.

The sculptor here resorted to shock value because he had no better ideas to convey the tragedy of mass murder of Polish war prisoners by the Soviets.
What about these?
Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image


Resized Image

(the last one is the irish hunger, not the holocaust)

look, just because you want life to be sunshine and roses doesn't mean it's a bad statue. It's a fantastic statue, and even if it moves, I hope it stays somewhere prominent. It's an icon of this city now, whether you like it or not.

Posted on: 5/2 23:26
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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You are correct, I did overlook that, but that happened due to necessity. The American deaths happened because they were protecting France so it became part of French history.

Posted on: 5/2 15:57
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Yvonne wrote:
Yes, my comments are far fetching, such as monuments should be a reflection of the US history. After all, I do not see US monuments in other countries especially the Middle East.


Perhaps you overlook the many US Military Cemeteries, the final resting places for America's global sacrifice against fascists and communists.

Favorite story is DeGaulle in the 60's on some sort of nationalist rant, wanting all Americans out of France! To which a US SoS retorted... "even the dead ones?"

Posted on: 5/2 13:12
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
Typical liberal, Azul_the_Cat when called out, let's do personal attacks.


Typical right-winger, not getting the joke.


Thanks... I lean right, but that was a joke!

Posted on: 5/2 13:05
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yes, my comments are far fetching, such as monuments should be a reflection of the US history. After all, I do not see US monuments in other countries especially the Middle East.

Posted on: 5/2 12:14
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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I'm going to make a suggestion, and I will try to stay as respectful as possible. Almost every single thread on here worth debating tends to diverge into a Yvonne vs. the world discussion. Let's try a month of completely ignoring any and all comments from Yvonne. I say that not out of disrespect to Yvonne (despite usually disagreeing with her views), but moreso out of respect for dialogue and discussion. Some of you (bodhipooh, etc.) raise great points and offer something to the discussion, and should keep it focused on that.

Can we at least try it? I mean literally no responding to or acknowledging Yvonne's responses, no matter how left field or out of order they are.

Posted on: 5/2 11:58
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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ProdigalSon wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Typical liberal, Azul_the_Cat when called out, let's do personal attacks.


Typical right-winger, not getting the joke.


Quit picking on Yvonne! It's not her fault she was born without a sense of humor! Or she had it excised in some dark ritual....

Posted on: 5/2 11:27
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
Typical liberal, Azul_the_Cat when called out, let's do personal attacks.


Typical right-winger, not getting the joke.

Posted on: 5/2 11:16
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Typical liberal, Azul_the_Cat when called out, let's do personal attacks.

Posted on: 5/2 9:25
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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Yvonne wrote:
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TheBigGuy wrote:
As long as we are removing monuments along the waterfront memorializing international atrocities then we need to consider the 911 Memorial at the foot of Grand Street.

In our new social justice world... the sight of a rusting WTC girder triggers the worst thoughts and fears about Muslim Terror. Hasn't the world moved past that...


What does social justice has to do with honoring an event that took place in our country? Then you add Muslim Terror as though you do not want to offend a particular group. I am sure there are memorials to the victims who died from the Oklahoma City bomber. Using your analogy, perhaps we should tear down memorials around the country dedicated to the victims of slavery, after all, we, as a society has moved past that.


Resized Image

Posted on: 5/2 9:19
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Re: Okay, so who here thinks the Katyn monument needs to go?
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TheBigGuy wrote:
As long as we are removing monuments along the waterfront memorializing international atrocities then we need to consider the 911 Memorial at the foot of Grand Street.

In our new social justice world... the sight of a rusting WTC girder triggers the worst thoughts and fears about Muslim Terror. Hasn't the world moved past that...


What does social justice has to do with honoring an event that took place in our country? Then you add Muslim Terror as though you do not want to offend a particular group. I am sure there are memorials to the victims who died from the Oklahoma City bomber. Using your analogy, perhaps we should tear down memorials around the country dedicated to the victims of slavery, after all, we, as a society has moved past that.

Posted on: 5/2 9:04
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