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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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by your reckoning, it seems that property taxes should never rise. should they be fixed in time?Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Every story is different, the woman who is 90 and now a widow paid $45,000 for her home and her husband worked two jobs to pay for the home. She has a disable adult son. Why should people sell when some were born here and others brought when the housing cost was cheap. Here is an example, when I married gold was $32.00 a troy ounce so I got a 18K gold wedding band. Today gold is $1,300 a troy ounce, so should I pay the sales tax based on gold now? It does not matter what they paid for their homes years ago, it is their homes. No one should be tax out of their homes especially since this city has been giving out sweetheart tax abatement deals for years.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 17:51
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I just called up the county tax assessor and asked for the tax abated ratables which is not part of the $28 billion from the new reval. He agreed with me those tax abatements are not included but he does not have those numbers until the papers are filed. I am guessing that protected tax abated ratable base is around $10 billion, but it is only a guess since some do expire and new ones are added each year. Just to think, if those abatements were ratables, then everyone taxes would be lowered. But let's ignore the truth as usual.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 17:43
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Yvonne wrote:
The people I know brought their properties in their thirties and forties for less than $100,000. They do not have the income as retired for near retirement to pay $2 to $3 million value on their homes. This is nothing but robbery and I stress that because the city has been giving tax breaks to developers knowing they are not ratables and cannot stabilize the tax rate.


People with millions in equity are not poor, they just need bankers to access their wealth, and our tax rate needs no stabilizing. When you claimed it was high it was in the middle, now it's among the lowest in the state. Denial of reality is not the basis of good tax policy.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 17:34
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The people I know brought their properties in their thirties and forties for less than $100,000. They do not have the income as retired for near retirement to pay $2 to $3 million value on their homes. This is nothing but robbery and I stress that because the city has been giving tax breaks to developers knowing they are not ratables and cannot stabilize the tax rate.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 17:11
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Wow. Just wow, Yvonne. I keep thinking it can't get any crazier.
That you don't understand the concept of inflation.... That you think property taxes should be based on income.... That you don't understand that current market value is not the same thing as market value in the 1970s/80s.... That you don't understand that the Jersey City real estate market is nothing like it was in 1988.... Head spinning... It would be amusing if it didn't feel so sad.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 16:54
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HeightsNative wrote:
You're completely missing the point of Current Market Value, i.e. what someone is willing to pay for it, today. Oh, nevermind. I've seen the pointlessness of trying to explain this.


Yup, a similar argument is taking place on NextDoor, these people are impervious to reality. Basing taxes on income rather than property value is an interesting idea, it just happens not to be the current law, and that is pretty unlikely to change. Doing a Prop 13 like california would make them happy, but be as disastrous for NJ as it has been for them. It locks people in their homes creating low sales inventory and driving up prices even further.

What's ironic, sad, and funny is Yvonne accusing other people of gaming the system that she herself gamed to great benefit.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 16:48
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This is nothing but government stealing properties from the small homeowners while it protects wealthy developers with tax abatements.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 16:46
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papadage wrote:
Please compare to comparable values. Homes downtown are not worth the "average" in the state.


Baloney, the people I know paid for their homes in the 1970s and 1980s at costs less than $100,000 and should not have taxes based on $2 to $3 million. That is just a way to legally steal someone's property. Taxes should be based on someone's income, it is the wealthy who do projects and avoid full taxes with their tax abatements that get away with not paying their fair share.


You're completely missing the point of Current Market Value, i.e. what someone is willing to pay for it, today. Oh, nevermind. I've seen the pointlessness of trying to explain this.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 16:20
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Here is some info that may be helpful for those considering an appeal

1) Reval Presentation that covers the basics of the process and the upcoming appeals:

https://www.slideshare.net/JamesSolomo ... lomons-reval-presentation

2) List of attorneys who filed formal appeals:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d ... BOtuYAk0/edit?usp=sharing

3) Free home valuation and comps

www.HudsonHomeReport.com

Posted on: 2018/2/26 15:45
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papadage wrote:
Please compare to comparable values. Homes downtown are not worth the "average" in the state.


Baloney, the people I know paid for their homes in the 1970s and 1980s at costs less than $100,000 and should not have taxes based on $2 to $3 million. That is just a way to legally steal someone's property. Taxes should be based on someone's income, it is the wealthy who do projects and avoid full taxes with their tax abatements that get away with not paying their fair share.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 15:32
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Please compare to comparable values. Homes downtown are not worth the "average" in the state.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 15:18
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Here is an article from the newspaper that states the average homeowner in Hudson County pays $8,500 so those downtown folks who are paying $14,000 to $16,000 in taxes are paying much more than their neighbors. The new assessments of $20,000 to $40,000 do not make sense. http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... 2box_nj-homepage-featured

Posted on: 2018/2/26 15:16
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Yvonne wrote:
By the way, according to the Federal government inflation is low so to suggest $90 million is equivalent to $588 million is insane, it is the reason Social Security recipients have not received an increase in years.


As already shown to you by other contributors, the inflation numbers are provided BY THE GOVERNMENT. You can also look at other sources (many private economic firms do this) and, if you were to bother doing so, you would see that everyone agrees that $1 in 1970 is the equivalent of $5.80 today. Of course, you respond to facts and documented sources with "well, I don't believe that" and continue rambling. Please, stop the nonsense.

If you are provided with facts and sources, and you refuse to believe anything but what you want to believe, then these conversations are a waste of time. It's impossible to reason with people who refuse to believe proven facts and documented sources.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 13:39
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Well, if you take off your blinders, Brewster, you can see how they are related. There is a reason why a homeless man was seeking shelter in the Medical Center in a story written by E. Assata Wright for the Hudson Reporter years ago. He lost his downtown home in the last reval, and there was numerous for sale signs on nearly every block after that revaluation. I do remember those days quite well.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 2:40
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Yvonne wrote:
Taxes are services Brewster, it is wrong to penalize one group while giving a tax break to another. That should be simple to understand. It is wrong to keep hiring people as this mayor is doing while he ignoring his promise to do a desk audit on jobs. It is wrong to take MUA money (the $31.5 million belonging to ratepayers) and claim taxes are stable. It is wrong to give bulk water sales to other towns which are cheaper than our local rate, then not collect the money and then later place liens on property that do not pay their water bills because the rate is too high.


And all of that is utterly unrelated to your claim that JC "taxes are high". Once again, you prove our point. Are they higher than need be? Perhaps, even most likely. But "high" is a relative term, that requires context to be meaningful. You repeat endlessly a meaniless claim.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 2:31
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Taxes are services Brewster, it is wrong to penalize one group while giving a tax break to another. That should be simple to understand. It is wrong to keep hiring people as this mayor is doing while he ignoring his promise to do a desk audit on jobs. It is wrong to take MUA money (the $31.5 million belonging to ratepayers) and claim taxes are stable. It is wrong to give bulk water sales to other towns which are cheaper than our local rate, then not collect the money and then later place liens on property that do not pay their water bills because the rate is too high.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 2:06
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FringeJC wrote:
I feel that the issue for people who are 80+ and facing taxes increase is more cognitive in nature in understanding how they can extract equity if needed to supplement their taxes. I hope they can rely on Solomon or any attorney to guide them in this process as compared to being scared into selling and leaving.


It's disturbing how many people have this knee jerk averse reaction to using the banking system to solve this simple problem of accessing their equity. It's actually a pretty good argument in favor of the lien bonding I proposed long ago, where the city (presumably via an investment bank) basically acts as the reverse mortgage bank, allowing anyone who qualifies (income to tax ratio?) to defer taxes via a lien and then selling yearly bonds for current cashflow. I think a lot of people would do this that believe a reverse mortgage is a scam.
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Monroe wrote:
If it's almost half of what he should be paying-that's damn cheap! That means 13 homeowners in other wards are each supporting him to the tune of $1,000 each!

Yvonne loves to howl "high taxes!" without ever justifying or contextualizing her claim. If it seems high to her, then it must be! Even if they're just average for the state.

Posted on: 2018/2/26 2:00
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If it's almost half of what he should be paying-that's damn cheap! That means 13 homeowners in other wards are each supporting him to the tune of $1,000 each!

Posted on: 2018/2/26 0:55
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Short clip on the rally plus other matters. Notice the Hispanic man says he pays $15,000 in property taxes which is now $28,000. Please note, $15,000 is not cheap taxes. https://youtu.be/Dd2jEyYI-68

Posted on: 2018/2/26 0:12
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I feel that the issue for people who are 80+ and facing taxes increase is more cognitive in nature in understanding how they can extract equity if needed to supplement their taxes. I hope they can rely on Solomon or any attorney to guide them in this process as compared to being scared into selling and leaving.

The reason I am writing this is because I received a cash-for-house mailer this week which seems to fit the later scenario.
Inventories are pretty tight even right now (wasn't the y/y price increase 24% in JC?), and it seems logical for savvy investors to use scare tactic to increase their options.

These older people need to be aware of their options too.
They still will have to pay their taxes, we are obviously beyond "Make Greenville Pay Again" (trademarked Brewster if I am not misguided).


Posted on: 2018/2/25 22:43
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Yvonne wrote:
The people I know are paying between $10,000 to $16,000 the majority is paying $14,000 before this revaluation. That is not cheap taxes.


How many units?

Posted on: 2018/2/25 20:24
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Yvonne wrote:
This is an example where you can use numbers to prove any point, let me say one thing. Income from the 1970s have not gone up. Plus the one thing that has bother me is the fact many are saying downtown is not paying their fair share. The people I know are paying between $10,000 to $16,000 the majority is paying $14,000 before this revaluation. That is not cheap taxes.


I paid about $10K last year and I'm a new property owner in the Heights. I really don't have a problem with that even considering that property owners downtown that own property 4 to 6 times what I paid for mine are paying around $10K also (pre-reval). $10K/year is pretty cheap when you consider the surrounding towns and counties. I have family paying 2 to 3 times more in taxes on property worth half as much. So the idea that JC is "not cheap" taxes doesn't exactly ring true when you look at the surrounding areas. Of course, you get what you pay for and the services in JC are nowhere near what the surrounding areas are.

Is it all fair? Of course not.

But the example you cite of a city budget in 2017 being $500M more than 1970 is not just using any old numbers to "prove a point", it's using WRONG numbers to prove a point. You will notice that BLS stands for Bureau of Labor Statistics and yes *income* is part of their inflation calculation.

I take your above response as acknowledging that you are wrong by flat out changing the subject.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 20:20
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This is an example where you can use numbers to prove any point, let me say one thing. Income from the 1970s have not gone up. Plus the one thing that has bother me is the fact many are saying downtown is not paying their fair share. The people I know are paying between $10,000 to $16,000 the majority is paying $14,000 before this revaluation. That is not cheap taxes.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 20:12
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Yvonne wrote:
If I am wrong, then the county tax assessor who I call every year is also wrong. His office produces the numbers that I refer to. Amazing, even Mayor Fulop in one of his earlier tax letter to taxpayers said taxes did not go up due to higher ratable base, he was referring to the expired tax abatements from the 1990s. Once a tax abatement has expired it becomes a ratable and it stabilizes the tax base. It is the reason Hoboken with their million dollar homes did not have this upheaval because they rarely give out tax abatements. By the way, according to the Federal government inflation is low so to suggest $90 million is equivalent to $588 million is insane, it is the reason Social Security recipients have not received an increase in years.


The inlfation calculator that I used is directly from the US government's own BLS website here: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

You can also see what the exact detail of inflation statistics here (and if you toggle the range from 1970 to 2018, you can see the numbers more starkly):
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUUR0000SA0

The suggestion that the budget increased $500M since 1970 in *real* terms is insane. $1 in 1970 had a lot more buying power than $1 does in 2018. Any argument that is not taking that into account is pure abfuscation.

I'm not talking about abatements or Hoboken. I'm talking about your budget number of $90M in 1970 vs what the equivalent budget number is today. Apples to apples. Not apples to oranges.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 20:03
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If I am wrong, then the county tax assessor who I call every year is also wrong. His office produces the numbers that I refer to. Amazing, even Mayor Fulop in one of his earlier tax letter to taxpayers said taxes did not go up due to higher ratable base, he was referring to the expired tax abatements from the 1990s. Once a tax abatement has expired it becomes a ratable and it stabilizes the tax base. It is the reason Hoboken with their million dollar homes did not have this upheaval because they rarely give out tax abatements. By the way, according to the Federal government inflation is low so to suggest $90 million is equivalent to $588 million is insane, it is the reason Social Security recipients have not received an increase in years.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 19:39
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o_crunk wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
I have said this numerous times the problem is two fold, cheap tax abatements which are not ratables and the budget. My first budget hearing I attended in the 1970s, the city spending was $90 million and it took 300 years to get to that point. Healy's last budget was $485 million and Fulop 2017 budget is $588 million. All taxes are based on spending at city hall but no one notices. You need a strong ratable base which means no tax abatements because they are not ratables but contracts and you need to cut the spending.


$90M in 1970 is approximately $590M in 2018 dollars adjusted for inflation. So really, the budget, adjusted for inflation is not really all that different from 1970 in *real* terms.


Yvonne is impervious to facts and data. She is constantly proven wrong in her contentions and falsehoods, but she keeps repeating them. Sadly, some gullible saps actually believe her, and then go on to repeat the same nonsense.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 18:49
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Yvonne wrote:
I have said this numerous times the problem is two fold, cheap tax abatements which are not ratables and the budget. My first budget hearing I attended in the 1970s, the city spending was $90 million and it took 300 years to get to that point. Healy's last budget was $485 million and Fulop 2017 budget is $588 million. All taxes are based on spending at city hall but no one notices. You need a strong ratable base which means no tax abatements because they are not ratables but contracts and you need to cut the spending.


$90M in 1970 is approximately $590M in 2018 dollars adjusted for inflation. So really, the budget, adjusted for inflation is not really all that different from 1970 in *real* terms.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 17:57
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Well, another way to look at it is that Fulop had a mandate from those downtown owners now wiggling out-since the voted for him as Councilman, and overwhelmingly as Mayor-twice.

In addition, JC has supported Democrats in Trenton going back to Mayor Hague. Democrats that never turned a union down for anything, ending up with policies like the 500k sick/vacation time payout to the retired police chief.

It's nice to see some get religion over spending, but you reap what you sow.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 16:28
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I have said this numerous times the problem is two fold, cheap tax abatements which are not ratables and the budget. My first budget hearing I attended in the 1970s, the city spending was $90 million and it took 300 years to get to that point. Healy's last budget was $485 million and Fulop 2017 budget is $588 million. All taxes are based on spending at city hall but no one notices. You need a strong ratable base which means no tax abatements because they are not ratables but contracts and you need to cut the spending.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 15:38
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Yvonne, there are no medical/age exemptions to avoid paying your fair share of real estate taxes, unless you qualify for the senior freeze. Were that true, the burden would just fall on other taxpayers-hardly fair. I know it absolutely makes house rich owners nuts to even consider their equity, but if you want to stay-call your bank and set up a home equity line of credit. Even if your income is limited, if you have a million dollars of house equity-guess what, you're a millionaire. Expecting people living on Ocean Avenue to subsidize you is obscene.

Posted on: 2018/2/25 15:37
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