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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Years ago, I tried to help a neighbor with this program. Taxes went up that year around $300 for her. According to the form, she could only deduct her unit. Then she had a 4 unit, now it is just an 3 unit due to Sandy, Fema gave her one thousand while the damage was in the $20,000 to $30,000 range. If this still exists only seniors with one family homes benefits. I hope changes were made and ignore the per unit guidelines. Because my neighbor had Social Security and her rents which kept afloat to pay taxes and other bills. I am referring to the old tax rate not the new of $35,000.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 16:00
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Seniors shouldn't be losing their homes when there are programs like this:

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/ptr/index.shtml


Posted on: 2018/2/22 15:46
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Strawhat wrote:
Also the thousands of people who have moved in within the last few years and had kids will one day have to send them to a high school. Not sure how all these transplants are going to feel about Ferris.


An interesting point I've seen made is that the AEP programs and McNair actually damage the district schools greatly by skimming the most talented students out. I wonder what my suburban school would have been like if the top 60 out of my class of 600 had been pulled out to a magnet HS.


Yea, I've heard that plenty of times too. There is obviously some logic to it, but as a Mcnair graduate myself I'm more happy that McNair and other AEP programs exist. These programs are ultimately a benefit for people like me.

I have one main issue with the argument that Mcnair damages other schools. Yes, taking kids from Mcnair and tossing them into the other schools may raise average test scores and whatnot, but that doesn't really matter if the state of the school and the education stays the same. The focus should be to fix and upgrade these schools. Mcnair existing should not take away from that focus.

Hopefully this new tax system can get us back on the right track.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 14:20
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Parkman: "recharge their outrage"
Also Parkman: "I didn't say outrage in my original post"

Yes of course I understand sarcasm. But you're not being sarcastic. Downtowners are very outraged and their perception of what is going on is horribly misguided.

You're just one of many trying to spin this fictitious unfairness under the guise of altruism. Just stop. It's not doing any of you any favors.


Posted on: 2018/2/22 12:36
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Parkman, I at least, have never said anything about what people expected decades ago, only their current status. It's just that when people with $1-3m in equity plead poverty that some of us feel that there's a real problem in perspective.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 6:49
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HeightsNative wrote:
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parkman wrote:
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brewster wrote:
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parkman wrote:
At this point, where our taxes have been raised from that $17,000 level to $28,000 and up, it feels like we are being forced out our homes, where we never wanted to sell, and weren’t driven by a monetary motive.


I simply don't understand. Why would you leave your beloved home rather than part with a small fraction of your unexpected and apparently unwelcome gains? Because I'm pretty sure you're over 62, you can pay that 1.62% indefinitely via a reverse mortgage, the taxes paid will almost certainly be replenished by further appreciation.

This anger and sense of "underappreciation" by the oldest residents who have seen the most gains is really frustrating for those of us who will also see tax raises, but can see the big picture as well. Instead of realizing you got a gift of easily $100-200k from other parts of the city due to the long delay, many of you indulge this anger at the end of the party. It's unseemly.
Let me take a nap due to my old age, and I'll answer you in the morning. The "under appreciated" have to recharge their outrage.


Ha. Outrage. You have no right to be outraged (bummed maybe). And given all the reasons listed before, if you're outraged, you're an indecent person.
OK, you woke me up. Where do you see the word "outrage" from me in the original post? The reply to Brewster was sarcasm, if you know what that is. I said it's "insulting" in the original to imply that long term residents, who have volunteered their time to make Downtown a better place to live, were motivated by a monetary gain. Nite.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 4:54
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parkman wrote:
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brewster wrote:
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parkman wrote:
At this point, where our taxes have been raised from that $17,000 level to $28,000 and up, it feels like we are being forced out our homes, where we never wanted to sell, and weren’t driven by a monetary motive.


I simply don't understand. Why would you leave your beloved home rather than part with a small fraction of your unexpected and apparently unwelcome gains? Because I'm pretty sure you're over 62, you can pay that 1.62% indefinitely via a reverse mortgage, the taxes paid will almost certainly be replenished by further appreciation.

This anger and sense of "underappreciation" by the oldest residents who have seen the most gains is really frustrating for those of us who will also see tax raises, but can see the big picture as well. Instead of realizing you got a gift of easily $100-200k from other parts of the city due to the long delay, many of you indulge this anger at the end of the party. It's unseemly.
Let me take a nap due to my old age, and I'll answer you in the morning. The "under appreciated" have to recharge their outrage.


Ha. Outrage. You have no right to be outraged (bummed maybe). And given all the reasons listed before, if you're outraged, you're an indecent person.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 4:44
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parkman wrote:
At this point, where our taxes have been raised from that $17,000 level to $28,000 and up, it feels like we are being forced out our homes, where we never wanted to sell, and weren’t driven by a monetary motive.


I simply don't understand. Why would you leave your beloved home rather than part with a small fraction of your unexpected and apparently unwelcome gains? Because I'm pretty sure you're over 62, you can pay that 1.62% indefinitely via a reverse mortgage, the taxes paid will almost certainly be replenished by further appreciation.

This anger and sense of "underappreciation" by the oldest residents who have seen the most gains is really frustrating for those of us who will also see tax raises, but can see the big picture as well. Instead of realizing you got a gift of easily $100-200k from other parts of the city due to the long delay, many of you indulge this anger at the end of the party. It's unseemly.


You nailed it, on all fronts. If a reverse mortgage isn't your thing, think about this. If you sold your place for $1.5mm and rented a place in the same neighborhood for $3000 a month, you'd be able to pay that rent for roughly 41 years just off the proceeds of the sale (I didn't factor in broker fees etc).

I'm emphathetic to such a shock, but it's all been said before. You all knew it was coming. And you've all experienced many years of underpaying, subsidized by the poorer parts of JC. Nothing will change that at this point. And you don't have to leave your longtime home. Stop with the overreactions and get a plan together for next steps.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 4:43
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brewster wrote:
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parkman wrote:
At this point, where our taxes have been raised from that $17,000 level to $28,000 and up, it feels like we are being forced out our homes, where we never wanted to sell, and weren’t driven by a monetary motive.


I simply don't understand. Why would you leave your beloved home rather than part with a small fraction of your unexpected and apparently unwelcome gains? Because I'm pretty sure you're over 62, you can pay that 1.62% indefinitely via a reverse mortgage, the taxes paid will almost certainly be replenished by further appreciation.

This anger and sense of "underappreciation" by the oldest residents who have seen the most gains is really frustrating for those of us who will also see tax raises, but can see the big picture as well. Instead of realizing you got a gift of easily $100-200k from other parts of the city due to the long delay, many of you indulge this anger at the end of the party. It's unseemly.
Let me take a nap due to my old age, and I'll answer you in the morning. The "under appreciated" have to recharge their outrage.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 4:40
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parkman wrote:
At this point, where our taxes have been raised from that $17,000 level to $28,000 and up, it feels like we are being forced out our homes, where we never wanted to sell, and weren’t driven by a monetary motive.


I simply don't understand. Why would you leave your beloved home rather than part with a small fraction of your unexpected and apparently unwelcome gains? Because I'm pretty sure you're over 62, you can pay that 1.62% indefinitely via a reverse mortgage, the taxes paid will almost certainly be replenished by further appreciation.

This anger and sense of "underappreciation" by the oldest residents who have seen the most gains is really frustrating for those of us who will also see tax raises, but can see the big picture as well. Instead of realizing you got a gift of easily $100-200k from other parts of the city due to the long delay, many of you indulge this anger at the end of the party. It's unseemly.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 4:27
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One thing that's really difficult is that a lot of the people most adversely affected by the tax increase were real pioneers who purchased homes here in the early 80s and got behind the community, effectuated significant change and ultimately did more for Jersey City than any politician or developer. Now after pulling Jersey City from out of the depths, many of them may be forced to sell and move. The process doesn't seem to pay any deference to their efforts. For a lot of these people, downtown Jersey City is a uniquely special place to live. So the fact that they could sell their homes and maybe cash in with a lot of money may not be so comforting. They actually CREATED a community here and created a place that was unique and special. Now they have to think about where they could go and live and feel as comfortable. It's a hard pill to swallow and it's something I wish people would feel sensitive to.


Apparently what contributed to that burgeoning sense of community all along was local tax policy. Or should I say lack thereof. Until now.
I don’t know who Sutherland is, but his/hers acknowledgment of the individuals who bought during a time downtown, when parking your car on the street meant wondering if your car window was going to be intact the next morning, when we went through a reval in ’88 that saw taxes like mine and others, go from $1,800 a year to $12,200, and despite a devastated real estate market, stayed put to make this community what it is today; is appreciated, and you insult us by saying we contributed due to a tax policy we had no control over or was our motivation.

There are multiple community groups downtown that have volunteered their time over the last 30 years to make this a better place to live, not driven by a profit motive, but to better the neighborhood they choose to make their home. If you think paying $17,000 a year in current taxes for a defected school system (until very recently controlled by the state for lack of quality), a combined sewer system that floods our basements during each heavy rain, one of the highest water and tax rates in the county, had something to do with our “burgeoning sense of community”, you don’t know who we are.

At this point, where our taxes have been raised from that $17,000 level to $28,000 and up, it feels like we are being forced out our homes, where we never wanted to sell, and weren’t driven by a monetary motive. I hope that all the people on this site that think we have been “getting away with murder”, are ready to take over all the volunteer efforts given by these long-term residents.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 3:51
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Councilman Solomon talks tax appeal at the Van Vorst meeting, edited to 23 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DmFdd_Kl98

Posted on: 2018/2/22 3:37
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One thing that's really difficult is that a lot of the people most adversely affected by the tax increase were real pioneers who purchased homes here in the early 80s and got behind the community, effectuated significant change and ultimately did more for Jersey City than any politician or developer. Now after pulling Jersey City from out of the depths, many of them may be forced to sell and move. The process doesn't seem to pay any deference to their efforts. For a lot of these people, downtown Jersey City is a uniquely special place to live. So the fact that they could sell their homes and maybe cash in with a lot of money may not be so comforting. They actually CREATED a community here and created a place that was unique and special. Now they have to think about where they could go and live and feel as comfortable. It's a hard pill to swallow and it's something I wish people would feel sensitive to.


Apparently what contributed to that burgeoning sense of community all along was local tax policy. Or should I say lack thereof. Until now.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 2:20
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Does any one know if you go for the informal reval meeting with AIS, can they raise your taxes after looking at them?

Posted on: 2018/2/22 1:53
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Fair question. It's incredibly complicated, which is why there is so much misinformation around the subject.


Nicely done sir.

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Also the thousands of people who have moved in within the last few years and had kids will one day have to send them to a high school. Not sure how all these transplants are going to feel about Ferris.


An interesting point I've seen made is that the AEP programs and McNair actually damage the district schools greatly by skimming the most talented students out. I wonder what my suburban school would have been like if the top 60 out of my class of 600 had been pulled out to a magnet HS.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 1:06
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wow JCGuys thanks so much for the response. Appreciate you taking the time out of your day to do that. and thank you Yvonne for the link.

As a native of the city, I've been against the abatements from the start just because it seemed to just promote building of large apartment buildings everywhere for no real reason other than proximity to NYC. The gentrification has been unfortunate, and abatements just seemed like a tool used to gentrify. Thank you for teaching me more about it as a whole.

I'm dreading to see what will happen when the state stops funding our BOE. Fulop can only tout the successes of Mcnair for so long before the people start having questions about the other high schools.

Also the thousands of people who have moved in within the last few years and had kids will one day have to send them to a high school. Not sure how all these transplants are going to feel about Ferris.

Posted on: 2018/2/22 0:54
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Posted on: 2018/2/21 23:50
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Monroe wrote:
Abbott is a court mandated program and not likely to go away soon. While some state financial support might get redistributed to more needy cities the bulk of state cash for JC schools will remain.


Why? At some point all the poor families with kids will be gentrified out of Jersey City and our ratabale base will one day push $50 billion. At what point does bankrupt NJ say that JC no longer needs the Abbott payments when they're other school districts that have a demonstrated need.

It doesn't make sense that the rest of the state doesn't revolt and demand change. It's like reverse Robinhood where the poor areas of the state just bends over and lets wealthy JC gets it way.

Posted on: 2018/2/21 23:35
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Abbott is a court mandated program and not likely to go away soon. While some state financial support might get redistributed to more needy cities the bulk of state cash for JC schools will remain.

Posted on: 2018/2/21 23:26
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Fair question. It's incredibly complicated, which is why there is so much misinformation around the subject.

The primary purpose of granting tax abatements is to spur investment in areas in need of redevelopment. I have no doubt in my mind that the new Journal Squared tower would not have been built had it not been for the long term tax abatement granted by the city. This is why I also believe that any discussion that focuses on what the tax rate would be if there was no abatements is flawed. While I believe there's some merit to Yvonne's claims that tax abatements, especially for downtown properties, isn't necessary as development would occur anyway, it's debatable as to the level of impact and it's not as simplistic as some suggest. Additionally, the city asks for concessions from developers, like providing for affordable housing or a new community facility like a school, in exchange for tax abatements. This policy has it's pluses and minuses.

In a normal property tax situation, the ratepayer pays a tax rate on the value of the land and the structure to Hudson County, JC BOE, and Jersey city. Tax abated properties pay a Payment In Lieu of Taxes (PILOT) to the city instead of property taxes on the structure. This payment the city receives is often times higher than what the city would get from property taxes because it doesn't have to split the payment with Hudson County and the school board. This is why the city has been so eager to grant abatements. PILOT payments are considered general revenue to the city and are budgeted to provide city services just like property taxes.

It's not fair to the other residents of Hudson County that are in effect subsidizing Jersey City, and for other residents of New Jersey are subsidize the Jersey City Board of Education. Yet, that's the way the state law regarding abatements is written, so I don't blame Jersey City for taking advantage of the law the way it is written to benefit from it. Due to public outcry, Jersey City has started sharing a small amount of it's PILOT revenue with the county and school board, but it isn't legally required to do so.

Developers like tax abatements since the PILOT payments are steady and known in advance. Property tax rate changes, but the PILOT payment remains unchanged according to a negotiated schedule of payments. It takes a lot of the risk out when developing a pro forma, or how much profit is expected from a new development.

I think the laws regarding abatements needs to immediately be reforming by the state. Have it a max of 10 years on new developments or major renovations, based as a percentage of what the new structure would be worth. And take it away from local politics to decide. Have it administered on the state level. Finally, PILOTs should be split equally with the County and school board.

The elephant in the room is when the state decides to stop sending Jersey City hundreds of millions of dollars every year to subsidize the school board. The shortfall would need to be made up by a substantial increase in the property tax rate. Post reval, the rate will be around 1.62%. That's low when considering the average in New Jersey. And it's silly that poorer suburbs with underaided school districts have to subsidize Jersey City schools to provide a tax break to million dollar condos and brownstones in Jersey City.

When does Governor Murphy and the assembly nuke the current unfair system and unleash true chaos?

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Strawhat wrote:
Would really appreciate if someone took the time to explain something to me.

I'm in agreement that this reval is long overdue. Everyone should be paying there fair share, and its about time DT did as well. But I also see people on here fighting back against the abatement questions. It seems to me that these abated buildings are not paying their fair share AFTER the reval. For example: a poster earlier in this thread stated that he's still paying 10k while his neighbors are up to 30k. Is this not also unfair?

Someone (I believe Dolomite although I could be wrong) stated that abated properties do end up paying their fair share through abatement payments. Is this true? Are these payments going to the same services as property taxes?

Excuse my ignorance on the subject.

Posted on: 2018/2/21 23:02
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Would really appreciate if someone took the time to explain something to me.

I'm in agreement that this reval is long overdue. Everyone should be paying there fair share, and its about time DT did as well. But I also see people on here fighting back against the abatement questions. It seems to me that these abated buildings are not paying their fair share AFTER the reval. For example: a poster earlier in this thread stated that he's still paying 10k while his neighbors are up to 30k. Is this not also unfair?

Someone (I believe Dolomite although I could be wrong) stated that abated properties do end up paying their fair share through abatement payments. Is this true? Are these payments going to the same services as property taxes?

Excuse my ignorance on the subject.

Posted on: 2018/2/21 22:07
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that's my problem with fulop. he'd rather find fault with proper taxation/reval, yet he defends tax abatements. is he healy lite or what? yes, he has curtailed them downtown somewhat, but he needs to be working on a plan to eliminate themQuote:

Yvonne wrote:
I just left the Van Vorst meeting on tax appeals and Mayor Fulop was there talking about the virtue of tax abatements. Naturally, he left out the part that tax abatements are not ratables and only ratables can stabilize or lower the tax rate.


Healy lite? Not really, Healy last tax abatement in Journal Square was reduced from 15 years to 12 years. Fulop wins the race, becomes mayor and gives 30 years tax abatement to the property next to the PATH plus $10 million redevelopment bonds. Then he continues with 70 plus more tax abatements. Plus knowing the negative impact of the revaluation gives away property to LS Center for ten dollars instead of selling the property to place in the budget to lower the impact of the revaluation.

Posted on: 2018/2/21 4:43
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that's my problem with fulop. he'd rather find fault with proper taxation/reval, yet he defends tax abatements. is he healy lite or what? yes, he has curtailed them downtown somewhat, but he needs to be working on a plan to eliminate themQuote:

Yvonne wrote:
I just left the Van Vorst meeting on tax appeals and Mayor Fulop was there talking about the virtue of tax abatements. Naturally, he left out the part that tax abatements are not ratables and only ratables can stabilize or lower the tax rate.

Posted on: 2018/2/21 3:53
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I just left the Van Vorst meeting on tax appeals and Mayor Fulop was there talking about the virtue of tax abatements. Naturally, he left out the part that tax abatements are not ratables and only ratables can stabilize or lower the tax rate.

Posted on: 2018/2/21 3:07
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well, it is definitely time for fulop to curtail, if not eliminate, these sweetheart deals imo. Quote:

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Loan? That is silly, the city reduced the pilots payments several years ago due to water rates on a senior building. They were paying 18% and water was extra. The owners came back because newer developments are only paying 6.28% to the city. No, the problem are these sweetheart deals, by the way those seniors in those buildings are still paying one third of their income, but the owners want a guaranteed profit, so why should anyone get a guarantee when the city takes our properties and place them into lien? The problem is a rigged system that protects tax abated buildings both affordable and market rate.


At this point what does it matter? Oh yeah, of the state comes in says "pay for your own schools", it's going to matter a TON.

That day will surely be upon us at some point. Hence why you need to listen to people who call for an end to the abatements.

Posted on: 2018/2/21 0:09
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well, it is definitely time for fulop to curtail, if not eliminate, these sweetheart deals imo. Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Loan? That is silly, the city reduced the pilots payments several years ago due to water rates on a senior building. They were paying 18% and water was extra. The owners came back because newer developments are only paying 6.28% to the city. No, the problem are these sweetheart deals, by the way those seniors in those buildings are still paying one third of their income, but the owners want a guaranteed profit, so why should anyone get a guarantee when the city takes our properties and place them into lien? The problem is a rigged system that protects tax abated buildings both affordable and market rate.

Posted on: 2018/2/20 23:22
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Loan? That is silly, the city reduced the pilots payments several years ago due to water rates on a senior building. They were paying 18% and water was extra. The owners came back because newer developments are only paying 6.28% to the city. No, the problem are these sweetheart deals, by the way those seniors in those buildings are still paying one third of their income, but the owners want a guaranteed profit, so why should anyone get a guarantee when the city takes our properties and place them into lien? The problem is a rigged system that protects tax abated buildings both affordable and market rate.

Posted on: 2018/2/20 22:41
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Yvonne, a rate of 1.62 is low. Mostly because JC funds so little of its school costs. JC taxes are a bargain.

Posted on: 2018/2/20 22:19
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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i feel for your 90-year old neighbor, but life is full of hardships. maybe the city should provide him/her with a loan to cover taxes and take out a lien on the property, but then again why can't that 90-year old person sell his/her property.

i don't think you appreciate how much dtjc has changed. check out some of the restaurants getting $20 for a smallish martini? that's disposable income speaking!Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Here is the difference, people should not be forced to sell while the city is still giving out sweetheart tax abatements. There is something wrong with that. Besides, my former neighbor who is 90 has an adult son who is disable mentally, moving from an area that he lived in since a child would be hard on him, that is one example. Another neighbor has around the clock care for MS, her money goes there. I could keep going on. The taxes are high because tax abatements are not ratables and only ratables can lower or stabilize taxes. It is the reason Hoboken had two revaluation and did not have this problem.

Posted on: 2018/2/20 21:58
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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Here is the difference, people should not be forced to sell while the city is still giving out sweetheart tax abatements. There is something wrong with that. Besides, my former neighbor who is 90 has an adult son who is disable mentally, moving from an area that he lived in since a child would be hard on him, that is one example. Another neighbor has around the clock care for MS, her money goes there. I could keep going on. The taxes are high because tax abatements are not ratables and only ratables can lower or stabilize taxes. It is the reason Hoboken had two revaluation and did not have this problem.

Posted on: 2018/2/20 21:41
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