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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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SOS wrote:
At the HCA meeting with Fulop and Solomon on Monday the 12th, it was mentioned that all value letters will be sent by February 19.

Perhaps Terrance McDonald can confirm this date?


Company told me the Feb. date referred to Downtown properties. All properties should get their letters by mid-March, they said.

Posted on: 2/15 16:54
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Well put. People calling for a phase in are being greedy and encouraging more bad behavior.


Not really. Rather this conversation is just above the level of comprehension and analytical capability for some folk.

Posted on: 2/15 16:50
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Dinger wrote:
ASI won't be mailing value letters until the end of March. Most of the assessments are still "in progress."


At the HCA meeting with Fulop and Solomon on Monday the 12th, it was mentioned that all value letters will be sent by February 19.

Perhaps Terrance McDonald can confirm this date?


The time-frame I quoted was sent to me by ASI.

Posted on: 2/15 14:40
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

And I've already pointed out how that will not happen, and doesn't make any sense. To present it more clearly than before, and add to it:

• Your proposal is almost certainly illegal under current law

• The state legislators would be fools to vote for it, since it will reward this form of negligence, and give other municipalities an incentive to keep delaying revals

• Jersey City doesn't deserve special treatment, since its chief role here is to delay and obstruct and sue and refuse to follow the law, to the bitter end

• Anyone with half a brain will see this as a transparent attempt to add yet another delay to the reval

• This is a problem that JC caused for itself, by going 3 decades without adjusting its taxes, and it's not Trenton's job to fix it

• It is utterly false that the "entire city" will benefit, as the tens of thousands of property owners who are scheduled for a tax cut will need to pay more taxes

• The people who are facing a tax hike had years to prepare, it's not like this was a secret

• The people who are facing a tax hike did nothing whatsoever to earn or deserve any special treatment whatsoever -- in fact, they've benefitted for years (if not decades) by paying less than their fair share

In short: Your "phase in" proposal is deeply unfair; it incentivizes municipal negligence; and it's not going to happen anyway. Pass.
Well put. People calling for a phase in are being greedy and encouraging more bad behavior.

Posted on: 2/15 14:22
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Property taxes should be fair. If your house (living in downtown is worth 1,000,000 - you should pay 16,000 and if you live in a poorer area of our city, say Greenville, and your house is worth 200,000, you should pay 3200. That's fair and equal. If a lawyer, living in a brownstone, worth 1,000,000 cannot afford to pay another 6,000 (and with new tax law, exempt it from his taxes beyond 10,000), he or she needs to reconsider what to do with the property. I have a feeling the lawyer will be able to afford the 60 percent increase. I know it sucks, but fair is fair and other parts of the city should not be taxed unequally and disadvantaged.

Posted on: 2/15 14:18
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bodhipooh wrote:
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RichMauro wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
Taxes are services, plain and simple. My former downtown neighbors did not spend millions on their homes. Some worked two jobs to buy their homes in the 1970s and 1980s. Their tax bills are similar to their purchase prices. Everyone generalize, some were used as one family homes, others could not rent due to damage from Irene and Sandy. When people read about these big rents, everyone generalize and that is wrong. My fear is these good people will lose their homes.


And that Yvonne, as I've said before plain and simple, is economic violence. These people bought homes, raised families and were good citizens. All they wanted was to live out their lives in their city. Shame on the administration.


Yours is a very curious stand. You claim economic violence because a person that owns a property worth over a million dollars (in Yvonne's example, some of those properties are worth 2.5+ MM!) is now expected to pay their fair share of taxes, but what about the single mother, or other disadvantaged person, living in the poorer areas of JC being asked to subsidize DTJC by paying effective tax rates that are 6 - 8 times higher!? Isn't it much more heartless (and, "violent"?) to expect (demand, even!) that a poor resident continue to "overpay" so that a demonstrably richer one can continue to under pay?? Is your concept of economic violence only applicable to people you can relate to or happen to know? Definitely a very curious stand.

You really should sit out this conversation, as it is clear you do not understand what is happening. Your previous post asking for an explanation of how the rates stack up and came to be shows that you do not understand the very basics of the conversation.


If you're wondering how Yvonne's lies still manage to have staying power, look no further than someone like Rich Mauro.

Posted on: 2/15 13:47
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Dinger wrote:
ASI won't be mailing value letters until the end of March. Most of the assessments are still "in progress."


At the HCA meeting with Fulop and Solomon on Monday the 12th, it was mentioned that all value letters will be sent by February 19.

Perhaps Terrance McDonald can confirm this date?

Posted on: 2/15 12:47
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Yvonne wrote:
Taxes are services, plain and simple. My former downtown neighbors did not spend millions on their homes. Some worked two jobs to buy their homes in the 1970s and 1980s. Their tax bills are similar to their purchase prices. Everyone generalize, some were used as one family homes, others could not rent due to damage from Irene and Sandy. When people read about these big rents, everyone generalize and that is wrong. My fear is these good people will lose their homes.


And that Yvonne, as I've said before plain and simple, is economic violence. These people bought homes, raised families and were good citizens. All they wanted was to live out their lives in their city. Shame on the administration.


Yours is a very curious stand. You claim economic violence because a person that owns a property worth over a million dollars (in Yvonne's example, some of those properties are worth 2.5+ MM!) is now expected to pay their fair share of taxes, but what about the single mother, or other disadvantaged person, living in the poorer areas of JC being asked to subsidize DTJC by paying effective tax rates that are 6 - 8 times higher!? Isn't it much more heartless (and, "violent"?) to expect (demand, even!) that a poor resident continue to "overpay" so that a demonstrably richer one can continue to under pay?? Is your concept of economic violence only applicable to people you can relate to or happen to know? Definitely a very curious stand.

You really should sit out this conversation, as it is clear you do not understand what is happening. Your previous post asking for an explanation of how the rates stack up and came to be shows that you do not understand the very basics of the conversation.

Posted on: 2/15 12:32

Edited by bodhipooh on 2018/2/15 12:55:24
Edited by bodhipooh on 2018/2/15 12:56:28
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ASI won't be mailing value letters until the end of March. Most of the assessments are still "in progress."

Posted on: 2/15 11:51
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Rich you should be thanking Fulop. If your taxes go up, say, 10k his delaying the reval 4 years saved you 40k!

Posted on: 2/15 11:21
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Yvonne wrote:
Taxes are services, plain and simple. My former downtown neighbors did not spend millions on their homes. Some worked two jobs to buy their homes in the 1970s and 1980s. Their tax bills are similar to their purchase prices. Everyone generalize, some were used as one family homes, others could not rent due to damage from Irene and Sandy. When people read about these big rents, everyone generalize and that is wrong. My fear is these good people will lose their homes.


And that Yvonne, as I've said before plain and simple, is economic violence. These people bought homes, raised families and were good citizens. All they wanted was to live out their lives in their city. Shame on the administration.

Posted on: 2/15 11:05
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
You are all over the place with your responses.

The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

Additionally, the current state law should be amended to explicitly penalize those municipalities that do not adhere to the law like withholding state aid, removing tax cap exceptions, etc. Thay is, it will provide them with a strong incentive to do revals on a regular basis.


Again, a phase in would only benefit the 1/6th of the city that has significantly underpaid for years, while the other 5/6ths would continue to overpay. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and seems so obviously rooted in self interest. Everyone knew this was coming but didn't believe how severe it would be, and now everyone's crying poor. Others here have said it, there ARE options (appeals, senior freezes, et); nobody, and I mean NOBODY, will have empathy or sympathy for someone sitting on a $1mm+ home valuation.

Regarding state law, what SHOULD change is JC receiving as much state aid as it gets for its schools. That should be over and done with after this.

Posted on: 2/15 10:51
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

And I've already pointed out how that will not happen, and doesn't make any sense. To present it more clearly than before, and add to it:

• Your proposal is almost certainly illegal under current law

• The state legislators would be fools to vote for it, since it will reward this form of negligence, and give other municipalities an incentive to keep delaying revals

• Jersey City doesn't deserve special treatment, since its chief role here is to delay and obstruct and sue and refuse to follow the law, to the bitter end

• Anyone with half a brain will see this as a transparent attempt to add yet another delay to the reval

• This is a problem that JC caused for itself, by going 3 decades without adjusting its taxes, and it's not Trenton's job to fix it

• It is utterly false that the "entire city" will benefit, as the tens of thousands of property owners who are scheduled for a tax cut will need to pay more taxes

• The people who are facing a tax hike had years to prepare, it's not like this was a secret

• The people who are facing a tax hike did nothing whatsoever to earn or deserve any special treatment whatsoever -- in fact, they've benefitted for years (if not decades) by paying less than their fair share

In short: Your "phase in" proposal is deeply unfair; it incentivizes municipal negligence; and it's not going to happen anyway. Pass.

Posted on: 2/15 10:47
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Monroe wrote:
My 93 year old dad pays over 30k in the suburbs, because his town pays for 90% of its own school cost, in effect subsidizing districts like Newark and JC-which combined suck a billion and a half dollars each and every year. So DTJC owners now paying more, well it could be worse-you could pay more than 17% for your own schools.


I agree with you about the board of ed funding. When the state cuts us off, downtown property will see their taxes jump again. There are no free lunches. I have criticized every administration for tax abatements that do not fund education.

Posted on: 2/15 10:07
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My 93 year old dad pays over 30k in the suburbs, because his town pays for 90% of its own school cost, in effect subsidizing districts like Newark and JC-which combined suck a billion and a half dollars each and every year. So DTJC owners now paying more, well it could be worse-you could pay more than 17% for your own schools.

Posted on: 2/15 9:51
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Taxes are services, plain and simple. My former downtown neighbors did not spend millions on their homes. Some worked two jobs to buy their homes in the 1970s and 1980s. Their tax bills are similar to their purchase prices. Everyone generalize, some were used as one family homes, others could not rent due to damage from Irene and Sandy. When people read about these big rents, everyone generalize and that is wrong. My fear is these good people will lose their homes.

Posted on: 2/15 9:35
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Obviously public housing won't be affected, there aren't a ton of tax abated properties in BeLa and Greenville. 1.62% is still a gift, mostly because other NJ taxpayers pay for over a half BILLION of JC school costs. DTJC has been doubly benefitting from other wards AND other towns.

Posted on: 2/15 9:23
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Monroe wrote:
I don't know how continuing to overtax people in poor wards to support wealthier homeowners benefits them.


Groups that will not be affected by the revaluation:
1. Public Housing, they have a contract that allows the deduction of water before the city receives any payment, as water increased they pay nothing.
2. Rent control, landlords will go to tax court to appeal because they cannot pass the increase on to tenants, we the public will pay refunding bonds to them
3. Tax abated properties have a contract on payment.
So before you point your finger about who support who in this city, there are thousands that receive the same services as the overtaxed downtown homeowner.


Posted on: 2/15 8:27
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I don't know how continuing to overtax people in poor wards to support wealthier homeowners benefits them.

Posted on: 2/15 7:13
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You are all over the place with your responses.

The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

Additionally, the current state law should be amended to explicitly penalize those municipalities that do not adhere to the law like withholding state aid, removing tax cap exceptions, etc. Thay is, it will provide them with a strong incentive to do revals on a regular basis.

Posted on: 2/15 6:27
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
"overpaying" is a prejorative by someone else other than the homeowner affected.

No one "overpays" - folks willing pay the tax or appeal it at their *free will*.....

Or, I just mean "overpay." No matter how it happened, thousands of property owners will be getting tax rate reductions. That's not hyperbole; out of the 9200 entries in the current list, nearly 2500 are getting reductions. And this is just a small part of the total.

Were they all supposed to appeal? Would that have magically fixed all the problems? Would it have increased the property taxes for those who weren't paying enough? What about those for whom their assessed value was below market, how does the appeal process work for those individuals?


Quote:
When someone's taxes goes up 4xs overnight - it will be mostly the latter. That is a tax shock....

Yes, I know what you meant.

You're still suggesting that the city tax people at the wrong rates for an extended period of time. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that is wildly illegal. I'm gonna go even further out and say that I cannot imagine NJ state legislature would do anything to help JC with this ridiculous plan, since JC deliberately and repeatedly delayed the reval by an unconscionable amount of time, and had to get dragged into court to just abide by existing law.

Even if it could somehow be done, the city will be telling tends of thousands of property owners that they have to wait for their taxes to drop, because other people -- whose property values exploded over the past decades -- don't want to pay all of their taxes.

You're also spreading this out into a smaller series of "shocks" -- e.g. if done in two years, then that owner will see their property taxes double in the first year, and double again. Congratulations! You've spread out the property tax increase, and property value hit, over two years.

And why should we have sympathy for these people again? They did nothing to deserve a massive tax break. Their taxes are going up because the value of their homes has soared. They're getting socked because the city refused to reval for thirty years -- and that wasn't a hidden fact.

In fact, in the same way that you believe the overpayers were suckers who should have appealed and "freely" chose to pay extra, the people getting socked now knew this was coming for years, and have no excuse to plead ignorance.

Posted on: 2/14 23:16
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Yvonne wrote:
When the 1988 reval happened, it also only affected downtown JC. Here are the results, Hispanic and senior homeowners were not able to sell, they lost their homes in liens. It is the reason Schundler created the bulk lien sale in the early 1990s because there were thousands of properties not able to pay. At least in those days, you had 3 years to pay before you went into lien. Now it is the same year. All taxes and water must be paid by the December due date which is on the tax bill.


Thank you Yvonne. Makes sense. I remember how messy downtown became after the sixties. It was a long climb out from the messiness.

Posted on: 2/14 20:44
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Haggis wrote:
Does anyone know how many owners have not rec'd their reval yet?
Haven't seen my property on any list, mailbox filled daily with useless spam.
Just want to know at this point.
Thanks mates.


I think most have not. There's only 13k in the excel file.

Posted on: 2/14 20:19
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Does anyone know how many owners have not rec'd their reval yet?
Haven't seen my property on any list, mailbox filled daily with useless spam.
Just want to know at this point.
Thanks mates.

Posted on: 2/14 20:11
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I think what Dolomiti is trying to say is that even if everyone overpaying had appealed, and many were not financially sophisticated enough to know they should, their tax would only be reduced to the official rate while many downtowners were paying less than half that. And then the rate would be raised to make up for the lost taxes.

As for people losing their homes to tax liens, Yvonne keeps trotting out that scaremongering nonsense. As said, only an idiot lets a home they actually own get taken in a lien.

Posted on: 2/14 18:47
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Jersey City divided as new tax assessments finally roll out

New assessments released citywide as part of the long-delayed property revaluation are exposing anew divisions between residents of Jersey City's Downtown and those who live in the city's less affluent neighborhoods.

Hundreds of Downtown residents have crowded community centers, churches and schools in recent weeks to express anger about the enormous tax hikes expected to accompany their new assessments. The owners of one Washington Street brownstone may see their annual tax bill increase by $36,066.

http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... y_divided_as_new_tax.html


Posted on: 2/14 17:24
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Well it makes you sound unintelligent. A tax assessment does not equal market value. Yes, they may have overestimated their own market value but that has little to do with their value for tax purposes. A home's value is based on what a buyer is willing to pay for it.

Don't worry, the "tight" market n DTJC I'm sure will be loosening up soon.



Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

dmark526 wrote:
What does Yeah...No mean?

It means "yeah, I thought about it; and no, you're wrong."


Quote:
You aren't the seller so you wouldn't know why they are selling unless you know them.

lol

In case you missed it, you ascribed motives to them too --
by proclaiming they were doing it because of the reval.

Anyway. It's been on the market for 5 months, they started out asking $1m more than the city's assessed price, and they switched real estate agents after just 2 months. I'm sure there are people more experienced than I am at divining the psychology of sellers, but that doesn't sound like they are getting out because their property taxes are going up. It sounds much more like they are trying to take advantage of an incredibly tight real estate market in DTCJ, and miscalculated.

Posted on: 2/14 17:20
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
I do not think you really comprehend tax appeals and tax shocks.

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Dolomiti wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, thing is? "Phased in" means that the people who are overpaying their taxes have to continue overpaying, until everything is up to date.

Plus, doing it in steps means repeated shocks with each step. Pass.


"overpaying" is a prejorative by someone else other than the homeowner affected.

No one "overpays" - folks willing pay the tax or appeal it at their *free will*. That is, one thought they were "overypaying" all along - they would have done a tax appeal years ago. Many/most have not.

If they cannot afford to pay the tax then they will move, freely (selling) or involuntarily (foreclosure). When someone's taxes goes up 4xs overnight - it will be mostly the latter. That is a tax shock - it will affect the marketability of all real estate, even those with near-term reduced tax bills adjacent to the boarded up/foreclosed properties.


No, sir, you clearly don't get it. In a normal scenario (one in which the city conducts regularly scheduled revals and the equalization ratio doesn't reach below 25%!), the time anyone "overpays" or "underpays" is a few years, depending on growth in various parts of the city. When a city is this far out of whack, yes, the majority of the city is significantly overpaying because the majority of the city is not valued properly and an appropriate tax rate isn't applied. An appeal would yield minimal results without a full reval.

Posted on: 2/14 17:17
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I do not think you really comprehend tax appeals and tax shocks.

Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, thing is? "Phased in" means that the people who are overpaying their taxes have to continue overpaying, until everything is up to date.

Plus, doing it in steps means repeated shocks with each step. Pass.


"overpaying" is a prejorative by someone else other than the homeowner affected.

No one "overpays" - folks willing pay the tax or appeal it at their *free will*. That is, one thought they were "overypaying" all along - they would have done a tax appeal years ago. Many/most have not.

If they cannot afford to pay the tax then they will move, freely (selling) or involuntarily (foreclosure). When someone's taxes goes up 4xs overnight - it will be mostly the latter. That is a tax shock - it will affect the marketability of all real estate, even those with near-term reduced tax bills adjacent to the boarded up/foreclosed properties.

Posted on: 2/14 16:54
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dmark526 wrote:
What does Yeah...No mean?

It means "yeah, I thought about it; and no, you're wrong."


Quote:
You aren't the seller so you wouldn't know why they are selling unless you know them.

lol

In case you missed it, you ascribed motives to them too --
by proclaiming they were doing it because of the reval.

Anyway. It's been on the market for 5 months, they started out asking $1m more than the city's assessed price, and they switched real estate agents after just 2 months. I'm sure there are people more experienced than I am at divining the psychology of sellers, but that doesn't sound like they are getting out because their property taxes are going up. It sounds much more like they are trying to take advantage of an incredibly tight real estate market in DTCJ, and miscalculated.

Posted on: 2/14 16:54
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