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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

And I've already pointed out how that will not happen, and doesn't make any sense. To present it more clearly than before, and add to it:

• Your proposal is almost certainly illegal under current law

• The state legislators would be fools to vote for it, since it will reward this form of negligence, and give other municipalities an incentive to keep delaying revals

• Jersey City doesn't deserve special treatment, since its chief role here is to delay and obstruct and sue and refuse to follow the law, to the bitter end

• Anyone with half a brain will see this as a transparent attempt to add yet another delay to the reval

• This is a problem that JC caused for itself, by going 3 decades without adjusting its taxes, and it's not Trenton's job to fix it

• It is utterly false that the "entire city" will benefit, as the tens of thousands of property owners who are scheduled for a tax cut will need to pay more taxes

• The people who are facing a tax hike had years to prepare, it's not like this was a secret

• The people who are facing a tax hike did nothing whatsoever to earn or deserve any special treatment whatsoever -- in fact, they've benefitted for years (if not decades) by paying less than their fair share

In short: Your "phase in" proposal is deeply unfair; it incentivizes municipal negligence; and it's not going to happen anyway. Pass.

Posted on: 2/15 10:47
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Monroe wrote:
My 93 year old dad pays over 30k in the suburbs, because his town pays for 90% of its own school cost, in effect subsidizing districts like Newark and JC-which combined suck a billion and a half dollars each and every year. So DTJC owners now paying more, well it could be worse-you could pay more than 17% for your own schools.


I agree with you about the board of ed funding. When the state cuts us off, downtown property will see their taxes jump again. There are no free lunches. I have criticized every administration for tax abatements that do not fund education.

Posted on: 2/15 10:07
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My 93 year old dad pays over 30k in the suburbs, because his town pays for 90% of its own school cost, in effect subsidizing districts like Newark and JC-which combined suck a billion and a half dollars each and every year. So DTJC owners now paying more, well it could be worse-you could pay more than 17% for your own schools.

Posted on: 2/15 9:51
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Taxes are services, plain and simple. My former downtown neighbors did not spend millions on their homes. Some worked two jobs to buy their homes in the 1970s and 1980s. Their tax bills are similar to their purchase prices. Everyone generalize, some were used as one family homes, others could not rent due to damage from Irene and Sandy. When people read about these big rents, everyone generalize and that is wrong. My fear is these good people will lose their homes.

Posted on: 2/15 9:35
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Obviously public housing won't be affected, there aren't a ton of tax abated properties in BeLa and Greenville. 1.62% is still a gift, mostly because other NJ taxpayers pay for over a half BILLION of JC school costs. DTJC has been doubly benefitting from other wards AND other towns.

Posted on: 2/15 9:23
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Quote:

Monroe wrote:
I don't know how continuing to overtax people in poor wards to support wealthier homeowners benefits them.


Groups that will not be affected by the revaluation:
1. Public Housing, they have a contract that allows the deduction of water before the city receives any payment, as water increased they pay nothing.
2. Rent control, landlords will go to tax court to appeal because they cannot pass the increase on to tenants, we the public will pay refunding bonds to them
3. Tax abated properties have a contract on payment.
So before you point your finger about who support who in this city, there are thousands that receive the same services as the overtaxed downtown homeowner.


Posted on: 2/15 8:27
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I don't know how continuing to overtax people in poor wards to support wealthier homeowners benefits them.

Posted on: 2/15 7:13
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You are all over the place with your responses.

The point is the entire city would be better off, including those with reduced assessments, if the state made a one time exception and had a stepup/phase in assessment. If so, the current reval would never have taken as long as it did to finally occur. The incentives to do so were not right under the current law.

Additionally, the current state law should be amended to explicitly penalize those municipalities that do not adhere to the law like withholding state aid, removing tax cap exceptions, etc. Thay is, it will provide them with a strong incentive to do revals on a regular basis.

Posted on: 2/15 6:27
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Quote:

Ralph_Abutts wrote:
"overpaying" is a prejorative by someone else other than the homeowner affected.

No one "overpays" - folks willing pay the tax or appeal it at their *free will*.....

Or, I just mean "overpay." No matter how it happened, thousands of property owners will be getting tax rate reductions. That's not hyperbole; out of the 9200 entries in the current list, nearly 2500 are getting reductions. And this is just a small part of the total.

Were they all supposed to appeal? Would that have magically fixed all the problems? Would it have increased the property taxes for those who weren't paying enough? What about those for whom their assessed value was below market, how does the appeal process work for those individuals?


Quote:
When someone's taxes goes up 4xs overnight - it will be mostly the latter. That is a tax shock....

Yes, I know what you meant.

You're still suggesting that the city tax people at the wrong rates for an extended period of time. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that is wildly illegal. I'm gonna go even further out and say that I cannot imagine NJ state legislature would do anything to help JC with this ridiculous plan, since JC deliberately and repeatedly delayed the reval by an unconscionable amount of time, and had to get dragged into court to just abide by existing law.

Even if it could somehow be done, the city will be telling tends of thousands of property owners that they have to wait for their taxes to drop, because other people -- whose property values exploded over the past decades -- don't want to pay all of their taxes.

You're also spreading this out into a smaller series of "shocks" -- e.g. if done in two years, then that owner will see their property taxes double in the first year, and double again. Congratulations! You've spread out the property tax increase, and property value hit, over two years.

And why should we have sympathy for these people again? They did nothing to deserve a massive tax break. Their taxes are going up because the value of their homes has soared. They're getting socked because the city refused to reval for thirty years -- and that wasn't a hidden fact.

In fact, in the same way that you believe the overpayers were suckers who should have appealed and "freely" chose to pay extra, the people getting socked now knew this was coming for years, and have no excuse to plead ignorance.

Posted on: 2/14 23:16
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Yvonne wrote:
When the 1988 reval happened, it also only affected downtown JC. Here are the results, Hispanic and senior homeowners were not able to sell, they lost their homes in liens. It is the reason Schundler created the bulk lien sale in the early 1990s because there were thousands of properties not able to pay. At least in those days, you had 3 years to pay before you went into lien. Now it is the same year. All taxes and water must be paid by the December due date which is on the tax bill.


Thank you Yvonne. Makes sense. I remember how messy downtown became after the sixties. It was a long climb out from the messiness.

Posted on: 2/14 20:44
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Haggis wrote:
Does anyone know how many owners have not rec'd their reval yet?
Haven't seen my property on any list, mailbox filled daily with useless spam.
Just want to know at this point.
Thanks mates.


I think most have not. There's only 13k in the excel file.

Posted on: 2/14 20:19
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Does anyone know how many owners have not rec'd their reval yet?
Haven't seen my property on any list, mailbox filled daily with useless spam.
Just want to know at this point.
Thanks mates.

Posted on: 2/14 20:11
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I think what Dolomiti is trying to say is that even if everyone overpaying had appealed, and many were not financially sophisticated enough to know they should, their tax would only be reduced to the official rate while many downtowners were paying less than half that. And then the rate would be raised to make up for the lost taxes.

As for people losing their homes to tax liens, Yvonne keeps trotting out that scaremongering nonsense. As said, only an idiot lets a home they actually own get taken in a lien.

Posted on: 2/14 18:47
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Jersey City divided as new tax assessments finally roll out

New assessments released citywide as part of the long-delayed property revaluation are exposing anew divisions between residents of Jersey City's Downtown and those who live in the city's less affluent neighborhoods.

Hundreds of Downtown residents have crowded community centers, churches and schools in recent weeks to express anger about the enormous tax hikes expected to accompany their new assessments. The owners of one Washington Street brownstone may see their annual tax bill increase by $36,066.

http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... y_divided_as_new_tax.html


Posted on: 2/14 17:24
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Well it makes you sound unintelligent. A tax assessment does not equal market value. Yes, they may have overestimated their own market value but that has little to do with their value for tax purposes. A home's value is based on what a buyer is willing to pay for it.

Don't worry, the "tight" market n DTJC I'm sure will be loosening up soon.



Quote:

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Quote:

dmark526 wrote:
What does Yeah...No mean?

It means "yeah, I thought about it; and no, you're wrong."


Quote:
You aren't the seller so you wouldn't know why they are selling unless you know them.

lol

In case you missed it, you ascribed motives to them too --
by proclaiming they were doing it because of the reval.

Anyway. It's been on the market for 5 months, they started out asking $1m more than the city's assessed price, and they switched real estate agents after just 2 months. I'm sure there are people more experienced than I am at divining the psychology of sellers, but that doesn't sound like they are getting out because their property taxes are going up. It sounds much more like they are trying to take advantage of an incredibly tight real estate market in DTCJ, and miscalculated.

Posted on: 2/14 17:20
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
I do not think you really comprehend tax appeals and tax shocks.

Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, thing is? "Phased in" means that the people who are overpaying their taxes have to continue overpaying, until everything is up to date.

Plus, doing it in steps means repeated shocks with each step. Pass.


"overpaying" is a prejorative by someone else other than the homeowner affected.

No one "overpays" - folks willing pay the tax or appeal it at their *free will*. That is, one thought they were "overypaying" all along - they would have done a tax appeal years ago. Many/most have not.

If they cannot afford to pay the tax then they will move, freely (selling) or involuntarily (foreclosure). When someone's taxes goes up 4xs overnight - it will be mostly the latter. That is a tax shock - it will affect the marketability of all real estate, even those with near-term reduced tax bills adjacent to the boarded up/foreclosed properties.


No, sir, you clearly don't get it. In a normal scenario (one in which the city conducts regularly scheduled revals and the equalization ratio doesn't reach below 25%!), the time anyone "overpays" or "underpays" is a few years, depending on growth in various parts of the city. When a city is this far out of whack, yes, the majority of the city is significantly overpaying because the majority of the city is not valued properly and an appropriate tax rate isn't applied. An appeal would yield minimal results without a full reval.

Posted on: 2/14 17:17
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I do not think you really comprehend tax appeals and tax shocks.

Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, thing is? "Phased in" means that the people who are overpaying their taxes have to continue overpaying, until everything is up to date.

Plus, doing it in steps means repeated shocks with each step. Pass.


"overpaying" is a prejorative by someone else other than the homeowner affected.

No one "overpays" - folks willing pay the tax or appeal it at their *free will*. That is, one thought they were "overypaying" all along - they would have done a tax appeal years ago. Many/most have not.

If they cannot afford to pay the tax then they will move, freely (selling) or involuntarily (foreclosure). When someone's taxes goes up 4xs overnight - it will be mostly the latter. That is a tax shock - it will affect the marketability of all real estate, even those with near-term reduced tax bills adjacent to the boarded up/foreclosed properties.

Posted on: 2/14 16:54
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dmark526 wrote:
What does Yeah...No mean?

It means "yeah, I thought about it; and no, you're wrong."


Quote:
You aren't the seller so you wouldn't know why they are selling unless you know them.

lol

In case you missed it, you ascribed motives to them too --
by proclaiming they were doing it because of the reval.

Anyway. It's been on the market for 5 months, they started out asking $1m more than the city's assessed price, and they switched real estate agents after just 2 months. I'm sure there are people more experienced than I am at divining the psychology of sellers, but that doesn't sound like they are getting out because their property taxes are going up. It sounds much more like they are trying to take advantage of an incredibly tight real estate market in DTCJ, and miscalculated.

Posted on: 2/14 16:54
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Yvonne wrote:
When the 1988 reval happened, it also only affected downtown JC. Here are the results, Hispanic and senior homeowners were not able to sell, they lost their homes in liens. It is the reason Schundler created the bulk lien sale in the early 1990s because there were thousands of properties not able to pay. At least in those days, you had 3 years to pay before you went into lien. Now it is the same year. All taxes and water must be paid by the December due date which is on the tax bill.

Anyone who loses their property over this is officially an idiot.

There are lots of options available to homeowners, such as home equity loans or reverse mortgages. Homeowners should be careful with these products, but if the value of your home has gone up $1m over the past 10 years, you should have enough equity in the house to cover your taxes for decades.

If you don't want to deal with that, then you can sell. It's not ideal, but it's obviously better than the city foreclosing on your property. The market in JC is incredibly hot right now, particularly in DTJC. Inventory is still tight. JC will still have low property taxes compared to most NJ cities, and the costs are laughably low compared to Manhattan.

You might not get the absolute peak value. However, prices have been soaring in most of JC, meaning almost everyone affected will be way up, and you can buy one heck of a home for $1.5m these days.

And as usual, you completely ignore how some people's properties will gain in value, because their taxes will go down. What a surprise that you ignore the people who have gotten screwed for decades by the inexcusable delays in revaluations.

Posted on: 2/14 16:45
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RichMauro wrote:
Can someone explain ?--if there is an explanation: if all the city's properties were evaluated way back when, how did uptown properties come to suffer with higher evaluations and therefore higher taxes?
What parameters were employed that created this inconsistency?


This is been explained but I guess it bears repeating for those new to the game. Every year after a reval the city basically guesses what the overall appreciation of ALL the property has been. This is called the ratio and and it times your assessment should yield a market value.

But when one area appreciates faster than another over time this factor is more and more in error. This is why when the ratio of assessment to market falls below 85% we're supposed to have a reval. We got below 25%, and the properties that appreciated the slowest were being overtaxed because the ratio guessed them to be more valuable than they were, and ones that appreciated the fastest were being under taxed. Got it?

Posted on: 2/14 16:33
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What does Yeah...No mean? It makes no sense...You aren't the seller so you wouldn't know why they are selling unless you know them. The reval has been known about since Christie ordered it. It was just a question of not if, but how much. Now it's time to pay the piper.


Quote:

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Quote:

dmark526 wrote:
The selling has already begun. 272 Barrow was put on the market in December for 3.3 million, the taxes went from 16K to 41K per year. They just lowered their asking to 3 million. I'm sure many more will follow.

Yeah... no

272 Barrow was first listed in 9/2017 for $3.5 million, which is **WAY** above market, and would probably make it one of the most expensive properties in JC. (The assessor put it at $2.5m.)

The owners pulled it from Twill, and relisted it at $3.3m with Boyne in 11/2017. In December, they reduced it again to $3m. All of that is more than 2 months before the updated rates were published.

This is not an example of people dumping properties because of the reval. It's an example of someone trying to sell a home for more than anyone wants to pay, for at least 5 months.

Posted on: 2/14 16:32
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
As for another reval next year/12 months later ....For Jersey City & the 1/2 dozen other municipalities in the same boat, the State should have made a one-time exception to the law to allow for a phased-in revaluation to prevent such a disruptive event like going on now.

Yeah, thing is? "Phased in" means that the people who are overpaying their taxes have to continue overpaying, until everything is up to date.

Plus, doing it in steps means repeated shocks with each step. Pass.

This has been coming for years. People have no excuse not to expect it. Delays only make it worse. And if you like the gradual approach, then the better option is to get everything matched up as best as possible now, and revalue properties every 2-5 years instead of every 30 years.

Posted on: 2/14 16:17
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dmark526 wrote:
The selling has already begun. 272 Barrow was put on the market in December for 3.3 million, the taxes went from 16K to 41K per year. They just lowered their asking to 3 million. I'm sure many more will follow.

Yeah... no

272 Barrow was first listed in 9/2017 for $3.5 million, which is **WAY** above market, and would probably make it one of the most expensive properties in JC. (The assessor put it at $2.5m.)

The owners pulled it from Twill, and relisted it at $3.3m with Boyne in 11/2017. In December, they reduced it again to $3m. All of that is more than 2 months before the updated rates were published.

This is not an example of people dumping properties because of the reval. It's an example of someone trying to sell a home for more than anyone wants to pay, for at least 5 months.

Posted on: 2/14 16:14
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Other counties, like Monmouth, conduct annual reassessments. The pro for such is as you noted. The con is the administrative costs to doing such each year may be de minimus,i.e. tax assessors are year-round employees & are not contracted out.

As for another reval next year/12 months later ....For Jersey City & the 1/2 dozen other municipalities in the same boat, the State should have made a one-time exception to the law to allow for a phased-in revaluation to prevent such a disruptive event like going on now.

That is, sure, pre-val, folks may be "subsidizing" the many downtowners, but when properties become tax delinquent or foreclosure, (or reassessed lower 12 months later due to much higher taxes), the rest of the city, including those originally benefiting form the reval with lower assessments, will end up paying for the shortfall in the tax levy. Tax shocks are never good for all taxpayers.

Posted on: 2/14 16:08
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When the 1988 reval happened, it also only affected downtown JC. Here are the results, Hispanic and senior homeowners were not able to sell, they lost their homes in liens. It is the reason Schundler created the bulk lien sale in the early 1990s because there were thousands of properties not able to pay. At least in those days, you had 3 years to pay before you went into lien. Now it is the same year. All taxes and water must be paid by the December due date which is on the tax bill.

Posted on: 2/14 16:08
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Can someone explain ?--if there is an explanation: if all the city's properties were evaluated way back when, how did uptown properties come to suffer with higher evaluations and therefore higher taxes?
What parameters were employed that created this inconsistency?

Posted on: 2/14 16:02
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it seems like annual reassesments would be fair given the expected strenth in other parts of jc.

Posted on: 2/14 15:53
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That property will sit forever. The problem is going to be if they sell for 3 million those taxes will be at 50K immediately.

Posted on: 2/14 15:23
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hero69 wrote:
just curious, when is the next reval ? or is it down annually using some type of algorithim.


The city has been working on 30-year delays between revals, so who knows? The mayor said today they are looking to do a reassessment next year -- I think they legally have to wait for 12 months at least because they need a year's worth of sales to use as comps.

The state generally requires revals when the ratio of true to assessed value dips below 85% -- that was in about 2001 and the state did not act until 2016.

Posted on: 2/14 14:49
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just curious, when is the next reval ? or is it down annually using some type of algorithim because house prices in other parts of jc, namely the heights, are definitely going up a lot.

Posted on: 2/14 14:34
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