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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Dolomiti wrote:

NJ has high taxes mostly because its constituents want lots of services. Trash pickup twice a week; snow ploughed instantly; pensions paid, roads maintained, the list goes on. People in Kansas don't get all this stuff, y'know.


"want" and "receive" are very different words. Snow plowing in less densely populated areas is anything but instant. Pensions? Those not receiving them would probably much rather have the road maintenance you point to that isn't happening. Kansas is an extreme example (as is Oklahoma).

We have a broken state-run rail system, public schools that range from elite in a few cases, good in some cases and poor to third-world in many more and roads that my Afghani Uber driver was complaining about being "worse than home" the other day. And for this we get to pay the highest taxes in the country (income + property)? Seattle provides incredible services with no state income tax and a property tax rate of about $0.95.

That Governing article you point to doesn't really apply - big cities like St. Louis and Louisville spread over large geographic areas annexing neighbors doesn't lead to efficiencies. A place like NJ, with twice as many municipalities as Texas and endless additional governing layers such as "authorities" and townships and counties, is ripe for consolidation. You need look no further than Princeton - even critics of their recent consolidation are only complaining that it could have been implemented better but acknowledge that it worked.

http://www.centraljersey.com/news/pri ... e5-a72d-f3086f6779ce.html

Just look within the county - tell me with a straight face why East Newark, Guttenberg and Weehawken exist? Look around the state - you could easily come up with a list in the hundreds of needless little 600 - 1,000 person entities (hamlets, boroughs, villages, towns, etc.) that would be better served by being part of a larger entity. This desire for Home Rule on the most microscopic level comes at a great cost.

Posted on: 2/7 9:49
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blah, blah, blah you all knew it was coming. I left downtown because I knew I would not be able to afford the new tax hike. I expect my taxes here to go down, I will no longer be subsidizing taxes for the millionaires club. Move to Texas if you want cheap taxes.

Posted on: 2/7 9:33
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I wonder what the likelihood is that some JC politicians are browsing this forum.
Have any newspaper articles appeared that anyone can point out that explore the disruption in the lives
of the aged? These people only seek to live out their lives in the buildings and neighborhoods to which they've become accustomed. They've been good citizens, obeyed the laws, raised their families to do the same, and are now faced with the hardships of ridiculously high tax rates which make no sense whatever. The politicians of New Jersey should be ashamed for abandoning these seniors in the waning years of their lives.
And for those of you who offer economic reasoning and proffer same solutions to the panic in the lives of these citizens, remember: "what goes around comes around".

Posted on: 2/7 9:29
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1000 sqft condo paying 10K in taxes for last 10 years is less for you ? A person buying that property will pay 20k now .. which is no way small tax for 1000 sqft space.
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Yvonne wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.


No, they got whacked because tax abated properties are not ratables. By comparison, those tax abated properties are paying very little and receive the same services as those being whacked.

Posted on: 2/7 9:21
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I've been living in a tax abated 2 bedroom 2 bath condo in downtown for 10 years. I've been paying $10.5k per year in property taxes for those 10 years. Turns out I was paying in many instances more than twice the amount that many of my fellow neighbors who are in non-tax abated properties that are currently valued at $1m or more were paying.
It's a complete fallacy to blanketly say that tax abated properties were paying less taxes than non-tax abated properties by comparison.


A fair point, pre reval. But doesn't this mean you're still paying close to $10k post reval at a similar valuation of your neighbors while your neighbors will pay close to $30k post reval? If I have that correct, that's still messed up, just in reverse.

And to someone's earlier point, there is no sympathy for DTJC residents paying the proper tax on million dollar homes while underpaying for many years.

Remember, 1.6% is still one of the lowest rates in the entire state! All the while still making the state subsidize 2/3 of the JC school system. That's a pretty solid deal in my view.

Posted on: 2/7 8:53
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Could you mine from the data how much more money is going to be coming from the abated properties due to the land rise? I can see a lot of abated condos going up $1k to $1.5k in tax.


I've noticed this, too. Although its a much smaller $ amount, the land increases for abated condos seems to range between 3x and 10x! I've been wondering if it was a way to ease the pain for the non-abated by overassessing land of the abated. If you look at the assessments of places like Crystal Point and 77 Hudson, they are assessed at absolute top $. In the meantime, a friend who lives on Varick in a brownstone that is worth $2 million at a minimum was assessed at just under $1.7mm. Incredibly small sample size, but I do wonder.

Posted on: 2/7 8:29
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I've been living in a tax abated 2 bedroom 2 bath condo in downtown for 10 years. I've been paying $10.5k per year in property taxes for those 10 years. Turns out I was paying in many instances more than twice the amount that many of my fellow neighbors who are in non-tax abated properties that are currently valued at $1m or more were paying.
It's a complete fallacy to blanketly say that tax abated properties were paying less taxes than non-tax abated properties by comparison.

Posted on: 2/7 0:23
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Yvonne wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.


No, they got whacked because tax abated properties are not ratables. By comparison, those tax abated properties are paying very little and receive the same services as those being whacked.


Tax abated properties were paying way more than your former neighbors were for decades. A two-bedroom condo on a PILOT paid more than your typical VVP brownstone that was worth upwards of 1.5M. I know you tell this lie so often now that it's second nature and you can't help yourself, but do try. In your religion, don't liars burn in hell?

Posted on: 2/6 23:48
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Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.


No, they got whacked because tax abated properties are not ratables. By comparison, those tax abated properties are paying very little and receive the same services as those being whacked.


As has been shown to you MANY times, this is a FALSE statement. In the past, most abated properties were paying a "reduced" rate compared to the (obviously fake) effective rate that was shown on official documents, but turns out those abated properties (which you falsely claim are paying very little) were paying the same or more than the new official rate, AND certainly more than the average DTJC homeowner that was paying effective rates of under 1%.

Posted on: 2/6 23:38
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.


Translation:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. Their homes are worth, 1.9 MM, 2.16 MM, and 2.53 MM.

Wow. Multimillionaires begging for pity. OK.

Posted on: 2/6 23:35
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Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.


No, they got whacked because tax abated properties are not ratables. By comparison, those tax abated properties are paying very little and receive the same services as those being whacked.

Posted on: 2/6 23:06
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biggoron wrote:
File as promised:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VkmP6vQEiNs2LGm58Cl3V96xnVgvlyBP

I'd recommend downloading it and opening it in Excel if you have it.


Thanks biggoron! Excellent to have this in Excel format.

Posted on: 2/6 22:46
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biggoron wrote:
File as promised:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VkmP6vQEiNs2LGm58Cl3V96xnVgvlyBP

I'd recommend downloading it and opening it in Excel if you have it.


I bow to your Excel Fu!!! Wish I had those data skills.

Any idea why they don't break out the land vs improvement breakdown? It's been pointed out elsewhere that there's a lot of variability in land assessments from 88. I can find on my block 2 side by side 25x100 properties with land assessed at $10k and $40k! With the rise in land value we're seeing, differences like that in this reval will mean bookoo bucks.

Could you mine from the data how much more money is going to be coming from the abated properties due to the land rise? I can see a lot of abated condos going up $1k to $1.5k in tax.

Posted on: 2/6 22:43
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.

Posted on: 2/6 22:20
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bjay wrote:
More food for thought: Will the reval help instigate a property tax rebellion?

Hahaha... nope.

NJ has high taxes mostly because its constituents want lots of services. Trash pickup twice a week; snow ploughed instantly; pensions paid, roads maintained, the list goes on. People in Kansas don't get all this stuff, y'know.


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Town consolidation to reduce redundancies?

Yeah, no. That doesn't really work.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014 ... _rutgers_study_finds.html

http://www.governing.com/columns/eco- ... plintered-governance.html


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A pushback on municipal jobs that come with generous pension deals?

Fewer civil servants = fewer services. So... What do you want to cut? Teachers? Police? Transportation?

Posted on: 2/6 22:19
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File as promised:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VkmP6vQEiNs2LGm58Cl3V96xnVgvlyBP

I'd recommend downloading it and opening it in Excel if you have it.

Posted on: 2/6 22:13
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I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

Posted on: 2/6 22:12
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The file put out last week has assessments for 9273 properties. 1484 of them have assessments less then their most recent sale price. One was most recently sold as far back as 1998 and is assessed for less then it was purchased for! There are a clusters of these from 2005-2009 (532 of them, wonder what happened then...) and 2016-2017 (292 in 2016 and 443 in 2017). Not sure this is indicative of anything.

I would guess the sample of properties is biased downtown at the moment, but some interesting points:
-Average change in tax, $2,097.18
-Seven properties saw their taxes decrease by more then 10k, two decreased by over 20k
-607 increased by more then 10k, 27 more then $20k
-73% of properties had their taxes change from between -2.5k and 2.5k. 82% of properties have their taxes changed between -5k and +5k.

While I know no one likes to pay more, I think the last point shows (to me at least) this shouldn't be too broad of a crisis.

I'll try to get the file somewhere so others can take a look.

Posted on: 2/6 22:04
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Yvonne wrote:
Nicky, you were not around downtown, so to say I was against anything being built is 100% wrong. As a former president of the Van Vorst Park Association, I supported development and green space. I had meetings with former Mayor Jordan. I was instrumental in getting the funds for Van Vorst Park and Hamilton, green acres. It was the first time Green Acres were used in any urban park. That took a lot of work with tons of meetings. By the way, I personally stopped the city turning Van Vorst Park into a basketball court because green acres required active sports. The trade off was vacant land on Wayne Street which has a basketball court and later became a park. Van Vorst Park also supported cut curves that are part of standard sidewalks. Someone had to the first to do that. I also started the Meet Ball, it happened to celebrated the hours we spent on the park renovations. I also got grant money to have trees place around Van Vorst and other parts of downtown. You know nothing because you were not around.


Well, what the hell happened to you?


There is a difference between fighting for your community and selling your soul to be politically correct. Attacking me has absolutely nothing to do with the tax rate.

Posted on: 2/6 20:17
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Yvonne wrote:
I also started the Meet Ball,


Oh wuz it you who left ur hat behind ?

BALLShat2_grande

Posted on: 2/6 18:39
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SOS, thanks for posting the link. It's going to be interesting to review the disparities between similar houses in my neighborhood. Just as it has been amazing to see the pre-reval disparities between similar houses in my neighborhood over the past decade.

Food for thought: $1.62 is only a prediction. Let's see what actually happens this summer. It might be more. Let's hope not.

More food for thought: Will the reval help instigate a property tax rebellion? Town consolidation to reduce redundancies? A pushback on municipal jobs that come with generous pension deals? And why hasn't that rebellion happened yet in our suburbs?

Quote:

SOS wrote:
PDF of current letters/assessments that have gone out -

http://www.asinj.com/revaluation.asp?p=current&id=359

Click on "Assessment Lists" lower left of page.

Posted on: 2/6 18:39
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Yvonne wrote:
Nicky, you were not around downtown, so to say I was against anything being built is 100% wrong. As a former president of the Van Vorst Park Association, I supported development and green space. I had meetings with former Mayor Jordan. I was instrumental in getting the funds for Van Vorst Park and Hamilton, green acres. It was the first time Green Acres were used in any urban park. That took a lot of work with tons of meetings. By the way, I personally stopped the city turning Van Vorst Park into a basketball court because green acres required active sports. The trade off was vacant land on Wayne Street which has a basketball court and later became a park. Van Vorst Park also supported cut curves that are part of standard sidewalks. Someone had to the first to do that. I also started the Meet Ball, it happened to celebrated the hours we spent on the park renovations. I also got grant money to have trees place around Van Vorst and other parts of downtown. You know nothing because you were not around.


Well, what the hell happened to you?

Posted on: 2/6 18:30
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Nicky, you were not around downtown, so to say I was against anything being built is 100% wrong. As a former president of the Van Vorst Park Association, I supported development and green space. I had meetings with former Mayor Jordan. I was instrumental in getting the funds for Van Vorst Park and Hamilton, green acres. It was the first time Green Acres were used in any urban park. That took a lot of work with tons of meetings. By the way, I personally stopped the city turning Van Vorst Park into a basketball court because green acres required active sports. The trade off was vacant land on Wayne Street which has a basketball court and later became a park. Van Vorst Park also supported cut curves that are part of standard sidewalks. Someone had to the first to do that. I also started the Meet Ball, it happened to celebrated the hours we spent on the park renovations. I also got grant money to have trees place around Van Vorst and other parts of downtown. You know nothing because you were not around.

Posted on: 2/6 16:22
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JCman24 wrote:
I'm seeing a ton of downtown properties for sale on Zillow right now, whereas it seems like the market has been super tight for the last few years. Of course they're all going for more than a million, but still interesting.

Looks pretty normal to me.

In 07302, there are 160 units for sale. 29 came on the market in the past 7 days, and 9 of those are new construction.

Oh, and there are over 22,000 housing units in 07302. I.e. there is no stampede in progress.

Posted on: 2/6 15:55
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At the end of the day most buyers (except foreigners buying with buckets of cash to hide their money or buy a green card) will look at total monthly payment that includes the mortgage, taxes and maintenance (if condo) after they put down their down payment. Banks are more strict on handing out mortgages now days than 10 years ago.

All of these things mentioned in this thread is the reason why I raised the question few months ago about fair pricing on a then low taxed property if someone was interested in it. Got some answers and of course an expected one from a realtor just playing down what was about to happen at least for the short term. 2018 Trump taxes make it even worse since RE taxes above 10K can't be deducted.


http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37837


It is going to make it more interesting Spring RE market with rising interest rates and how DOW dropped 1500 points in one day. One thing going for the RE market is the lack of inventory.

Agree with you those that taxes should be fair across the City and no one neighborhood should be subsidizing another. It is also true that people who are currently buying even the tax abated properties are paying very high PILOT abatements but most of those are going to the City none to the the school system. That is what is whacked about this City!


Posted on: 2/6 0:30
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JCman24 wrote:
I'm seeing a ton of downtown properties for sale on Zillow right now, whereas it seems like the market has been super tight for the last few years. Of course they're all going for more than a million, but still interesting.


And none of them list the new taxes of course.

Posted on: 2/6 0:02
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I'm seeing a ton of downtown properties for sale on Zillow right now, whereas it seems like the market has been super tight for the last few years. Of course they're all going for more than a million, but still interesting.

Posted on: 2/5 23:19
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dr_nick_riviera wrote:
Why would there even be a need for physical assessments if we went to a 5-year system? We do it algorithmically using nearby sales and comp data with perhaps a physical assessment only being trigged in the event of a sale or 10 years, whichever comes first?

People like Yvonne wouldn't be able to game the system this way and unload their properties before an expected increase this way though, so expect lots of NIMBY and NA opposition.


The city already does it algorithmically to set the ratio, but that's for the whole city. I wonder if it's possible to set up enough "districts" to achieve what you're saying. As for Yvonne, the joke's on her. The run-up in prices since she sold has been far more than any expected drop due to a tax hike!

Posted on: 2/5 21:16
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brewster wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
If anyone has advice on how to convince the city to get on, say, a 5-year schedule, let me know. ;)


Fair concern. Yvonne has made bitching and fearmongering about 88 her life work for the past 30 years. I'm just guessing, but I think a rolling reval on sales with a 10 year reval of those not sold during that decade would probably do it. 5 year would be awful expensive.

I'm reasonably confident that the revals would cost less, if the city wasn't fighting it tooth and nail. At least 1/3 of the cost was due to the canceled 2011 reval, and legal fees.


Why would there even be a need for physical assessments if we went to a 5-year system? We do it algorithmically using nearby sales and comp data with perhaps a physical assessment only being trigged in the event of a sale or 10 years, whichever comes first?

People like Yvonne wouldn't be able to game the system this way and unload their properties before an expected increase this way though, so expect lots of NIMBY and NA opposition.

Posted on: 2/5 20:01
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Dolomiti wrote:
If anyone has advice on how to convince the city to get on, say, a 5-year schedule, let me know. ;)


Fair concern. Yvonne has made bitching and fearmongering about 88 her life work for the past 30 years. I'm just guessing, but I think a rolling reval on sales with a 10 year reval of those not sold during that decade would probably do it. 5 year would be awful expensive.

I'm reasonably confident that the revals would cost less, if the city wasn't fighting it tooth and nail. At least 1/3 of the cost was due to the canceled 2011 reval, and legal fees.

Posted on: 2/5 19:43
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