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Re: New Tax Rate is Insane!
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Y'know, I like Fulop overall. However, I have no qualms whatsoever in saying that his resistance to the reval is a bad policy for NJ, which he has pursued for short-term political gain.

We need to get on a regular schedule, every 5 years or so, rather than push it off for decades, and fight it when it's already well overdue.

Posted on: 2/7 12:01
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Dolomiti wrote:

NJ has high taxes mostly because its constituents want lots of services. Trash pickup twice a week; snow ploughed instantly; pensions paid, roads maintained, the list goes on. People in Kansas don't get all this stuff, y'know.


"want" and "receive" are very different words. Snow plowing in less densely populated areas is anything but instant.

Erm... My point is that people in the NYC metro area lose their **** if they aren't plowed out immediately. For example, a few years ago, NYC got hit with 11-16" of snow, and it took over a day to dig out pretty much every part of the city. As a result, outer boro residents demanded Bloomberg's decapitated head on a pike. I'm reasonably certain that residents of Idaho don't demand that level of service.


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Pensions? Those not receiving them would probably much rather have the road maintenance you point to that isn't happening.

NJ roads are fine. We're even getting some big infrastructure work done near JC, such as raising the Bayonne Bridge, replacing the Wittpenn Bridge, and thanks to Christie ripping off the federal government, work on the Pulaski Skyway. A few streets with a bunch of potholes (yes, I drive over them on occasion) does not mean the entire state road system sucks.

And those receiving pensions? We offered them a tradeoff: Lower wages during their working years, in exchange for decent benefits and pensions later on.


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Kansas is an extreme example (as is Oklahoma).

Actually, NJ is the extreme. Kansas is average. For total tax burdens:

NJ total tax rate = 10.14%
Kansas = 8.72%
Average for all 50 states = 8.57%


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We have a broken state-run rail system, public schools that range from elite in a few cases, good in some cases and poor to third-world in many more and roads that my Afghani Uber driver was complaining about being "worse than home" the other day.

Well, if you say an Uber driver said it, it must be true....

NJ Transit isn't "broken." Last I checked, most of its problems are a result of using Amtrak lines. PATH isn't "broken" either. Keep in mind that few cities in the US (or the world) have any sort of 24/7 regional transit.

NJ's schools are #10 in the US (per US News & World Report). Kansas, by the way, is #45.


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That Governing article you point to doesn't really apply - big cities like St. Louis and Louisville spread over large geographic areas annexing neighbors doesn't lead to efficiencies.....

Sorry, but that specific point is not sufficient to ignore the entire article.

St Louis County is larger than Bergen County -- but the population is the same, and so are the issues. You still optimally want the same number of teachers, police, fire, parks and so on. A smaller geographic area doesn't make government services cheaper or more efficient, except for transportation costs (which are not that significant).


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You need look no further than Princeton - even critics of their recent consolidation are only complaining that it could have been implemented better but acknowledge that it worked.

Yeah... no. The advocates are the one crowing about it, since it let them fire 23 employees. The critics point out that services are slightly reduced; they haven't harmonized a lot of town laws; that they had consolidated many services before merging; and that none of the surrounding communities have any interest in following suit.

That's not surprising, since the two cities could have fired 11 employees each and gotten the same result.


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Just look within the county - tell me with a straight face why East Newark, Guttenberg and Weehawken exist?

East Newark already works with the Harrison school district; they share other resources with Harrison and Kearny. Gutenberg -- which is geographically tiny but has more than 10,000 residents -- also shares resources, does not have its own fire department, sends students to North Bergen. Weehakwen also has 10,000 residents, and again shares resources with North Bergen. Its schools are small -- and well-regarded. Usually, that's a good thing.

These tiny municipalities are already doing things that reduce their costs, and improve efficiencies. Large municipalities, as the Rutgers study points out, are not more efficient than larger ones. People also seem to like local control.

As a result, there are visible downsides and few upsides to consolidation -- unless you're going to use it as an excuse to cut staff, which also means you're going to reduce services.

The promise of big gains through consolidation is an illusion.

Posted on: 2/7 11:53
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brewster wrote:
Could you mine from the data how much more money is going to be coming from the abated properties due to the land rise? I can see a lot of abated condos going up $1k to $1.5k in tax.


I've noticed this, too. Although its a much smaller $ amount, the land increases for abated condos seems to range between 3x and 10x! I've been wondering if it was a way to ease the pain for the non-abated by overassessing land of the abated.


I don't think it's a strategy, just reality. Here's that article I posted in October saying land value is driving prices.

https://www.buildzoom.com/blog/paying- ... d-from-construction-costs

Posted on: 2/7 11:51
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Dan what was your mentor/leader Jerry Healy's strategy on this?

Posted on: 2/7 11:36
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Posted on: 2/7 10:25
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RichMauro wrote:
I wonder what the likelihood is that some JC politicians are browsing this forum.
Have any newspaper articles appeared that anyone can point out that explore the disruption in the lives
of the aged? These people only seek to live out their lives in the buildings and neighborhoods to which they've become accustomed. They've been good citizens, obeyed the laws, raised their families to do the same, and are now faced with the hardships of ridiculously high tax rates which make no sense whatever. The politicians of New Jersey should be ashamed for abandoning these seniors in the waning years of their lives.
And for those of you who offer economic reasoning and proffer same solutions to the panic in the lives of these citizens, remember: "what goes around comes around".


I can't take credit for this idea, but I will pose the question to Rich. Rich, if you feel so bad for all the seniors who now sit on 1+million dollar homes, I'll make a deal with you. You round up all the people you claim are going to be forced out of their homes. Bring them to me, and I will buy their homes/land for what they originally paid for it. I will let them live out their remaining years in their home, and they can continue to pay the same taxes to me, I'll make up the difference, and everyone wins. Of course, I get to keep the land/property once the current resident passes away.

Deal?

Posted on: 2/7 10:18
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RichMauro wrote:
I wonder what the likelihood is that some JC politicians are browsing this forum.
Have any newspaper articles appeared that anyone can point out that explore the disruption in the lives
of the aged? These people only seek to live out their lives in the buildings and neighborhoods to which they've become accustomed. They've been good citizens, obeyed the laws, raised their families to do the same, and are now faced with the hardships of ridiculously high tax rates which make no sense whatever. The politicians of New Jersey should be ashamed for abandoning these seniors in the waning years of their lives.
And for those of you who offer economic reasoning and proffer same solutions to the panic in the lives of these citizens, remember: "what goes around comes around".


Rich, you keep confusing tax amount with tax RATE. These elders and everyone else are going to pay one of the lowest tax RATES (1.6%) in the entire state. However the value of heir homes are over a million bucks so again, you can't expect sympathy. Because again, those people have disproportionately underpaying relative to the value of their homes for years, even decades. Look into reverse mortgages etc. there are solutions that can stave off moving.

Posted on: 2/7 10:05
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Dolomiti wrote:

NJ has high taxes mostly because its constituents want lots of services. Trash pickup twice a week; snow ploughed instantly; pensions paid, roads maintained, the list goes on. People in Kansas don't get all this stuff, y'know.


"want" and "receive" are very different words. Snow plowing in less densely populated areas is anything but instant. Pensions? Those not receiving them would probably much rather have the road maintenance you point to that isn't happening. Kansas is an extreme example (as is Oklahoma).

We have a broken state-run rail system, public schools that range from elite in a few cases, good in some cases and poor to third-world in many more and roads that my Afghani Uber driver was complaining about being "worse than home" the other day. And for this we get to pay the highest taxes in the country (income + property)? Seattle provides incredible services with no state income tax and a property tax rate of about $0.95.

That Governing article you point to doesn't really apply - big cities like St. Louis and Louisville spread over large geographic areas annexing neighbors doesn't lead to efficiencies. A place like NJ, with twice as many municipalities as Texas and endless additional governing layers such as "authorities" and townships and counties, is ripe for consolidation. You need look no further than Princeton - even critics of their recent consolidation are only complaining that it could have been implemented better but acknowledge that it worked.

http://www.centraljersey.com/news/pri ... e5-a72d-f3086f6779ce.html

Just look within the county - tell me with a straight face why East Newark, Guttenberg and Weehawken exist? Look around the state - you could easily come up with a list in the hundreds of needless little 600 - 1,000 person entities (hamlets, boroughs, villages, towns, etc.) that would be better served by being part of a larger entity. This desire for Home Rule on the most microscopic level comes at a great cost.

Posted on: 2/7 9:49
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blah, blah, blah you all knew it was coming. I left downtown because I knew I would not be able to afford the new tax hike. I expect my taxes here to go down, I will no longer be subsidizing taxes for the millionaires club. Move to Texas if you want cheap taxes.

Posted on: 2/7 9:33
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I wonder what the likelihood is that some JC politicians are browsing this forum.
Have any newspaper articles appeared that anyone can point out that explore the disruption in the lives
of the aged? These people only seek to live out their lives in the buildings and neighborhoods to which they've become accustomed. They've been good citizens, obeyed the laws, raised their families to do the same, and are now faced with the hardships of ridiculously high tax rates which make no sense whatever. The politicians of New Jersey should be ashamed for abandoning these seniors in the waning years of their lives.
And for those of you who offer economic reasoning and proffer same solutions to the panic in the lives of these citizens, remember: "what goes around comes around".

Posted on: 2/7 9:29
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1000 sqft condo paying 10K in taxes for last 10 years is less for you ? A person buying that property will pay 20k now .. which is no way small tax for 1000 sqft space.
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Yvonne wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.


No, they got whacked because tax abated properties are not ratables. By comparison, those tax abated properties are paying very little and receive the same services as those being whacked.

Posted on: 2/7 9:21
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I've been living in a tax abated 2 bedroom 2 bath condo in downtown for 10 years. I've been paying $10.5k per year in property taxes for those 10 years. Turns out I was paying in many instances more than twice the amount that many of my fellow neighbors who are in non-tax abated properties that are currently valued at $1m or more were paying.
It's a complete fallacy to blanketly say that tax abated properties were paying less taxes than non-tax abated properties by comparison.


A fair point, pre reval. But doesn't this mean you're still paying close to $10k post reval at a similar valuation of your neighbors while your neighbors will pay close to $30k post reval? If I have that correct, that's still messed up, just in reverse.

And to someone's earlier point, there is no sympathy for DTJC residents paying the proper tax on million dollar homes while underpaying for many years.

Remember, 1.6% is still one of the lowest rates in the entire state! All the while still making the state subsidize 2/3 of the JC school system. That's a pretty solid deal in my view.

Posted on: 2/7 8:53
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Could you mine from the data how much more money is going to be coming from the abated properties due to the land rise? I can see a lot of abated condos going up $1k to $1.5k in tax.


I've noticed this, too. Although its a much smaller $ amount, the land increases for abated condos seems to range between 3x and 10x! I've been wondering if it was a way to ease the pain for the non-abated by overassessing land of the abated. If you look at the assessments of places like Crystal Point and 77 Hudson, they are assessed at absolute top $. In the meantime, a friend who lives on Varick in a brownstone that is worth $2 million at a minimum was assessed at just under $1.7mm. Incredibly small sample size, but I do wonder.

Posted on: 2/7 8:29
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I've been living in a tax abated 2 bedroom 2 bath condo in downtown for 10 years. I've been paying $10.5k per year in property taxes for those 10 years. Turns out I was paying in many instances more than twice the amount that many of my fellow neighbors who are in non-tax abated properties that are currently valued at $1m or more were paying.
It's a complete fallacy to blanketly say that tax abated properties were paying less taxes than non-tax abated properties by comparison.

Posted on: 2/7 0:23
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Yvonne wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.


No, they got whacked because tax abated properties are not ratables. By comparison, those tax abated properties are paying very little and receive the same services as those being whacked.


Tax abated properties were paying way more than your former neighbors were for decades. A two-bedroom condo on a PILOT paid more than your typical VVP brownstone that was worth upwards of 1.5M. I know you tell this lie so often now that it's second nature and you can't help yourself, but do try. In your religion, don't liars burn in hell?

Posted on: 2/6 23:48
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Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.


No, they got whacked because tax abated properties are not ratables. By comparison, those tax abated properties are paying very little and receive the same services as those being whacked.


As has been shown to you MANY times, this is a FALSE statement. In the past, most abated properties were paying a "reduced" rate compared to the (obviously fake) effective rate that was shown on official documents, but turns out those abated properties (which you falsely claim are paying very little) were paying the same or more than the new official rate, AND certainly more than the average DTJC homeowner that was paying effective rates of under 1%.

Posted on: 2/6 23:38
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.


Translation:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. Their homes are worth, 1.9 MM, 2.16 MM, and 2.53 MM.

Wow. Multimillionaires begging for pity. OK.

Posted on: 2/6 23:35
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.


No, they got whacked because tax abated properties are not ratables. By comparison, those tax abated properties are paying very little and receive the same services as those being whacked.

Posted on: 2/6 23:06
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biggoron wrote:
File as promised:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VkmP6vQEiNs2LGm58Cl3V96xnVgvlyBP

I'd recommend downloading it and opening it in Excel if you have it.


Thanks biggoron! Excellent to have this in Excel format.

Posted on: 2/6 22:46
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biggoron wrote:
File as promised:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VkmP6vQEiNs2LGm58Cl3V96xnVgvlyBP

I'd recommend downloading it and opening it in Excel if you have it.


I bow to your Excel Fu!!! Wish I had those data skills.

Any idea why they don't break out the land vs improvement breakdown? It's been pointed out elsewhere that there's a lot of variability in land assessments from 88. I can find on my block 2 side by side 25x100 properties with land assessed at $10k and $40k! With the rise in land value we're seeing, differences like that in this reval will mean bookoo bucks.

Could you mine from the data how much more money is going to be coming from the abated properties due to the land rise? I can see a lot of abated condos going up $1k to $1.5k in tax.

Posted on: 2/6 22:43
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Yvonne wrote:
I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

If they got whacked with a big increase in taxes, then that means they spent years (if not decades) paying lower taxes... and forcing others to pay more than their fair share.

Request for sympathy: DENIED.

Posted on: 2/6 22:20
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bjay wrote:
More food for thought: Will the reval help instigate a property tax rebellion?

Hahaha... nope.

NJ has high taxes mostly because its constituents want lots of services. Trash pickup twice a week; snow ploughed instantly; pensions paid, roads maintained, the list goes on. People in Kansas don't get all this stuff, y'know.


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Town consolidation to reduce redundancies?

Yeah, no. That doesn't really work.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014 ... _rutgers_study_finds.html

http://www.governing.com/columns/eco- ... plintered-governance.html


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A pushback on municipal jobs that come with generous pension deals?

Fewer civil servants = fewer services. So... What do you want to cut? Teachers? Police? Transportation?

Posted on: 2/6 22:19
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File as promised:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VkmP6vQEiNs2LGm58Cl3V96xnVgvlyBP

I'd recommend downloading it and opening it in Excel if you have it.

Posted on: 2/6 22:13
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I just heard from 3 former neighbors in the Van Vorst neighborhood. New taxes, $31,000, $35,000, and $41,000.

Posted on: 2/6 22:12
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The file put out last week has assessments for 9273 properties. 1484 of them have assessments less then their most recent sale price. One was most recently sold as far back as 1998 and is assessed for less then it was purchased for! There are a clusters of these from 2005-2009 (532 of them, wonder what happened then...) and 2016-2017 (292 in 2016 and 443 in 2017). Not sure this is indicative of anything.

I would guess the sample of properties is biased downtown at the moment, but some interesting points:
-Average change in tax, $2,097.18
-Seven properties saw their taxes decrease by more then 10k, two decreased by over 20k
-607 increased by more then 10k, 27 more then $20k
-73% of properties had their taxes change from between -2.5k and 2.5k. 82% of properties have their taxes changed between -5k and +5k.

While I know no one likes to pay more, I think the last point shows (to me at least) this shouldn't be too broad of a crisis.

I'll try to get the file somewhere so others can take a look.

Posted on: 2/6 22:04
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Yvonne wrote:
Nicky, you were not around downtown, so to say I was against anything being built is 100% wrong. As a former president of the Van Vorst Park Association, I supported development and green space. I had meetings with former Mayor Jordan. I was instrumental in getting the funds for Van Vorst Park and Hamilton, green acres. It was the first time Green Acres were used in any urban park. That took a lot of work with tons of meetings. By the way, I personally stopped the city turning Van Vorst Park into a basketball court because green acres required active sports. The trade off was vacant land on Wayne Street which has a basketball court and later became a park. Van Vorst Park also supported cut curves that are part of standard sidewalks. Someone had to the first to do that. I also started the Meet Ball, it happened to celebrated the hours we spent on the park renovations. I also got grant money to have trees place around Van Vorst and other parts of downtown. You know nothing because you were not around.


Well, what the hell happened to you?


There is a difference between fighting for your community and selling your soul to be politically correct. Attacking me has absolutely nothing to do with the tax rate.

Posted on: 2/6 20:17
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I also started the Meet Ball,


Oh wuz it you who left ur hat behind ?

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Posted on: 2/6 18:39
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SOS, thanks for posting the link. It's going to be interesting to review the disparities between similar houses in my neighborhood. Just as it has been amazing to see the pre-reval disparities between similar houses in my neighborhood over the past decade.

Food for thought: $1.62 is only a prediction. Let's see what actually happens this summer. It might be more. Let's hope not.

More food for thought: Will the reval help instigate a property tax rebellion? Town consolidation to reduce redundancies? A pushback on municipal jobs that come with generous pension deals? And why hasn't that rebellion happened yet in our suburbs?

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SOS wrote:
PDF of current letters/assessments that have gone out -

http://www.asinj.com/revaluation.asp?p=current&id=359

Click on "Assessment Lists" lower left of page.

Posted on: 2/6 18:39
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Yvonne wrote:
Nicky, you were not around downtown, so to say I was against anything being built is 100% wrong. As a former president of the Van Vorst Park Association, I supported development and green space. I had meetings with former Mayor Jordan. I was instrumental in getting the funds for Van Vorst Park and Hamilton, green acres. It was the first time Green Acres were used in any urban park. That took a lot of work with tons of meetings. By the way, I personally stopped the city turning Van Vorst Park into a basketball court because green acres required active sports. The trade off was vacant land on Wayne Street which has a basketball court and later became a park. Van Vorst Park also supported cut curves that are part of standard sidewalks. Someone had to the first to do that. I also started the Meet Ball, it happened to celebrated the hours we spent on the park renovations. I also got grant money to have trees place around Van Vorst and other parts of downtown. You know nothing because you were not around.


Well, what the hell happened to you?

Posted on: 2/6 18:30
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Nicky, you were not around downtown, so to say I was against anything being built is 100% wrong. As a former president of the Van Vorst Park Association, I supported development and green space. I had meetings with former Mayor Jordan. I was instrumental in getting the funds for Van Vorst Park and Hamilton, green acres. It was the first time Green Acres were used in any urban park. That took a lot of work with tons of meetings. By the way, I personally stopped the city turning Van Vorst Park into a basketball court because green acres required active sports. The trade off was vacant land on Wayne Street which has a basketball court and later became a park. Van Vorst Park also supported cut curves that are part of standard sidewalks. Someone had to the first to do that. I also started the Meet Ball, it happened to celebrated the hours we spent on the park renovations. I also got grant money to have trees place around Van Vorst and other parts of downtown. You know nothing because you were not around.

Posted on: 2/6 16:22
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