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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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The Baseball Mafia is a completely different topic. I agree with your sentiment. It's not worth the trouble to fight them. In time the neighborhood demographics will change - likely to become more diverse and parents are only interested in Little League while their kids are young. Besides, isn't the 2nd street ball field slated or condo development? (I do recall commenting here about it; am too lazy look up) .

That said, there are still plenty of ball fields & courts (tennis & bb)throughout the city, already that folks do not have to wait in line to access.

I am surely in the minority, but I would wish for the city to have a velodrome like it once did before.

Posted on: 1/13 21:15
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Interesting timing ehh?

Propose filling the swamp after being
called out on a 'marina' land grab?


#irony




Posted on: 1/13 13:04
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Ralph, do you honestly believe the Baseball Mafia wouldn't squeal to high heaven if you tried to take away a DT field unless you offered at least 2 in return?

The HPNA was horrified when we were shown the renovation plans for Enos Jones many years ago. We asked why it was entirely for baseball and an NCAA size field at that, not even multi-use for soccer or other community sports. It was non-negotiable, the baseball powers had a lock.

Too often we've had rigid people like you get their way. VVP after it's renovation under Schundler had no playground. None. The "passive garden" advocates had gotten their way to the exclusion of other park users. After a public ruckus they finally relented and a play areas were added. Certain people advocated the same thing for HP but fortunately there were parents on the board who would not tolerate that nonsense. Some battles are eternal.

Posted on: 1/13 12:54
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Quote:

JCman24 wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:

Sacrificing 240 acres in the middle of the city to the "Eco-Gods" makes no sense.


Quote:

Honestly this is just a bunch of Eco pandering.


Quote:
7
could be used for a neighborhood park rather than being owned by the Baseball Mafia


This is definitely the language of a well-balanced person making a good faith effort to debate a civic topic


Not really. If he really cared about the ONE baseball field, then he would have addressed it by contacting the rec dept director, writing to council, mayor, etc. Instead of trolling here with slipshot responses. The reason it has remained that way is no one else cared that much and for good reason. There are plenty of available baseball fields in the city, including one blocks away, much closer than LSP. Adding another does not make sense. Folks rather play ball than battle beauracracy or as he puts it the mafia.

Posted on: 1/13 10:20
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Quote:

GrovePath wrote:
Quote:

135jc wrote:
Quote:

GrovePath wrote:
Quote:

135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


What a load of crap!


What is.crap? Besides your Statement


They already stole the Morris Canal - leave some waterfront for the people!


What do you call the whole Hudson River waterfront and walkway?

Posted on: 1/12 18:01
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

TheBigGuy wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

TheBigGuy wrote:
Quote:

135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


This is simply a bait and switch tactic from Christie and his hacks to press the marina forward. The marina is already getting a discount on their bulkhead repair and they will never pay full value for anything related to their operation.

Wouldn't it be nice to issue an RFP solicit bids for marina proposal to see the real value of this project? This new wetlands proposal will be tied up in the court for years while the marina plows forward. .

Huh?

What does the proposed wetlands have to do with the marina?

Who is going to sue to stop the remediation?



Is it a mere a coincidence that the same public agency sneakily pushing the marina plan suddenly dusts off a plan that was not feasible 10 years ago? Curious how big this settlement fund is...

Again... Huh?

Christie is about to get flushed. There is no indication that the restoration is in any way contingent on the marina construction. They can do one without affecting the other.

At best, it may be an 11th hour attempt to mollify critics -- "hey look, more parkland, pay no attention to that stuff on the south side!" If so, then it was completely ineptly done, and doesn't change the facts that a) these projects are independent and b) Murphy is about to take over.


Quote:
Do you really think the DEP will let the renovation of marina 1 / bulkhead, the construction of marina 2 and this wetlands remediation project all go at the same time?

Yes... because there is no reason why they can't, or shouldn't.


Quote:
You have more faith in the DEP than I do. Interesting the Wetlands project will go out to bid, but the new marina project doesn't.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's because Suntex already has a deal to operate the northern marina. I'm sure there were other backroom deals, I mean... this is NJ after all.

Oh, and the lack of putting the south marina out to bid may be a key component in getting it shot down in the courts.



Your faith in the honesty and the integrity of the DEP is astounding. As I said, the DEP killed the wetlands project years ago, but now it is good to go??? The new marina proposal will go to court the Marina Owners and the DEP (already signed agreements) against the People.

And obviously their case will center around "Yes, we are taking the south side land for the marina, but we are "reclaiming" 2X more in swampland for public usage. They also handed off the Wetlands project management to the US Army Corp of Engineers... which puts it under federal control/mandate. that was no coincidence either.

Posted on: 1/12 17:52
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Just for the record, there is city owned land scattered in LSP. An example is the land near Liberty Storage, it got a sweetheart deal of paying one dollar a year for 99 years for a bowling alley and beer garden. That is one example, there are other parcels there too. Some of the parcels do have development of light industry.

Posted on: 1/12 16:33
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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brewster wrote:
Residents of DT might head to Berry Lane for a sports event, but not for casual park use. I'm not advocating FOR ball fields as much as I'm advocating that the precious small amount of DT parkspace NOT be used for ballfields! Creating alternate locations would do that. Your claim that there is already sufficient ballfields is proven false by the fact that these fields are currently DT and no one outside the approved organizations can use them. This is a misallocation of a scarce resource.

Strange, because it looks an awful lot like you're advocating for baseball fields, because you're upset that one close to you is controlled by the "JC Baseball Mafia."

If anything, it sounds like the solution is not necessarily to build more ballfields, but to improve public access to the ones already in existence.

Also, aren't there like 7 baseball fields at Lincoln Park? Are any of those publicly accessible?

I also have to reiterate that it seems like any sort of natural green space is incredibly scarce in JC, and Hudson County in general. We aren't living in the NJ Highlands, ya know....

Posted on: 1/12 16:09
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Quote:

TheBigGuy wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

TheBigGuy wrote:
Quote:

135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


This is simply a bait and switch tactic from Christie and his hacks to press the marina forward. The marina is already getting a discount on their bulkhead repair and they will never pay full value for anything related to their operation.

Wouldn't it be nice to issue an RFP solicit bids for marina proposal to see the real value of this project? This new wetlands proposal will be tied up in the court for years while the marina plows forward. .

Huh?

What does the proposed wetlands have to do with the marina?

Who is going to sue to stop the remediation?



Is it a mere a coincidence that the same public agency sneakily pushing the marina plan suddenly dusts off a plan that was not feasible 10 years ago? Curious how big this settlement fund is...

Again... Huh?

Christie is about to get flushed. There is no indication that the restoration is in any way contingent on the marina construction. They can do one without affecting the other.

At best, it may be an 11th hour attempt to mollify critics -- "hey look, more parkland, pay no attention to that stuff on the south side!" If so, then it was completely ineptly done, and doesn't change the facts that a) these projects are independent and b) Murphy is about to take over.


Quote:
Do you really think the DEP will let the renovation of marina 1 / bulkhead, the construction of marina 2 and this wetlands remediation project all go at the same time?

Yes... because there is no reason why they can't, or shouldn't.


Quote:
You have more faith in the DEP than I do. Interesting the Wetlands project will go out to bid, but the new marina project doesn't.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's because Suntex already has a deal to operate the northern marina. I'm sure there were other backroom deals, I mean... this is NJ after all.

Oh, and the lack of putting the south marina out to bid may be a key component in getting it shot down in the courts.

Posted on: 1/12 15:50
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Quote:

brewster wrote:

Sacrificing 240 acres in the middle of the city to the "Eco-Gods" makes no sense.


Quote:

Honestly this is just a bunch of Eco pandering.


Quote:

could be used for a neighborhood park rather than being owned by the Baseball Mafia


This is definitely the language of a well-balanced person making a good faith effort to debate a civic topic

Posted on: 1/12 15:39
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:

I really don't follow your reasoning, do you? If you are going to exclude county parks, then why not state parks, too.
Why not propose building a sports stadium instead in LSP? You know every other big city in America has one, why not Jersey City.


As for 10k new homes, it's not like the parks are hidden or were removed after they will make their purchase. Those folks are choosing to live in an urban environment - a tradeoff for proximity (NYC) versus green space. Those who wish to play field/court sports have plenty of public city & county facilities in Jersey City to play - at nearly anytime/not wait in line. Don't take my word for it - surely there will be buyers for all 10k units and still no wait lists for the sports fields.

There is already more than sufficient supply for such. Ample supply/capacity in fact. Berry Lane Park, a big city park, is newly opened and will easily accommodate the additional the 10k.

What is not in close proximity is the type of green space contained in LSP. Outside of LSP, you need to travel far for the next closest state park. Adding more fence-less space for LSP is a Good Thing Indeed, especially for the state's **most visited** state park.


Ralph, you seem to be making choices based on one factor, liking the idea of some wildness in the city, rather than in a holistic way. I'm really only proposing using a small part, perhaps 1/10 of that acreage being discussed. Our city should have parks in every area sufficient for our citizens, not "buyer beware". And that attitude is at odds with your desire for the wild area.

Residents of DT might head to Berry Lane for a sports event, but not for casual park use. I'm not advocating FOR ball fields as much as I'm advocating that the precious small amount of DT parkspace NOT be used for ballfields! Creating alternate locations would do that. Your claim that there is already sufficient ballfields is proven false by the fact that these fields are currently DT and no one outside the approved organizations can use them. This is a misallocation of a scarce resource.

Posted on: 1/12 14:22
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

Ralph_Abutts wrote:
"LSP has 10x more open space fenced off from the public than there is city parks in all of JC." State your source of information; I doubt your original assertion is correct.


It seems there's only 2x as much as JC claims it has parkland, though I have no idea where these 189 claimed park acres are, most of our parks are tiny when you exclude state and County parks.

Here's a mine of info on parks
https://www.tpl.org/sites/default/file ... City%20Park%20Facts_0.pdf

JC comes in nearly last in all categories when you exclude LSP.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... ark_dead_last_report.html

If we have such a wealth of ballfields then we can convert the ones DT to multi-use like HP right? There's over 10k new homes being built DT and no significant new parks planned. 4 acres in Liberty N and less than 2 acres up on Coles are all I know about. Not to mention that HP draws people from outside of DT.


I really don't follow your reasoning, do you? If you are going to exclude county parks, then why not state parks, too.
Why not propose building a sports stadium instead in LSP? You know every other big city in America has one, why not Jersey City.


As for 10k new homes, it's not like the parks are hidden or were removed after they will make their purchase. Those folks are choosing to live in an urban environment - a tradeoff for proximity (NYC) versus green space. Those who wish to play field/court sports have plenty of public city & county facilities in Jersey City to play - at nearly anytime/not wait in line. Don't take my word for it - surely there will be buyers for all 10k units and still no wait lists for the sports fields.

There is already more than sufficient supply for such. Ample supply/capacity in fact. Berry Lane Park, a big city park, is newly opened and will easily accommodate the additional the 10k.

What is not in close proximity is the type of green space contained in LSP. Outside of LSP, you need to travel far for the next closest state park. Adding more fence-less space for LSP is a Good Thing Indeed, especially for the state's **most visited** state park.

Posted on: 1/12 14:07
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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I would love to see this space be opened to the public, I've been dying to get a chance to explore in there for years. Didn't they used to run tours through there every once and a while? I don't buy into the notion that the space should be developed to serve the "needs" of the public, such as adding more sports fields. If I make the choice to purchase a car, the city doesn't owe me a place to park it… hell no. Sure, there are places to park, but there sure ain't enough for everybody!

Posted on: 1/12 13:45
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Quote:

135jc wrote:
Quote:

GrovePath wrote:
Quote:

135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


What a load of crap!


What is.crap? Besides your Statement


They already stole the Morris Canal - leave some waterfront for the people!

Posted on: 1/12 13:35
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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GrovePath wrote:
Quote:

135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


What a load of crap!


What is.crap? Besides your Statement

Posted on: 1/12 13:01
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
"LSP has 10x more open space fenced off from the public than there is city parks in all of JC." State your source of information; I doubt your original assertion is correct.


It seems there's only 2x as much as JC claims it has parkland, though I have no idea where these 189 claimed park acres are, most of our parks are tiny when you exclude state and County parks.

Here's a mine of info on parks
https://www.tpl.org/sites/default/file ... City%20Park%20Facts_0.pdf

JC comes in nearly last in all categories when you exclude LSP.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... ark_dead_last_report.html

If we have such a wealth of ballfields then we can convert the ones DT to multi-use like HP right? There's over 10k new homes being built DT and no significant new parks planned. 4 acres in Liberty N and less than 2 acres up on Coles are all I know about. Not to mention that HP draws people from outside of DT.

Posted on: 1/12 12:05
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Washington Park has plenty of recreational capacity, as in courts & fields that are often free/unused. Additionally, immediately across the street from this park is another municipal park and sports field, (in Union City).

Posted on: 1/12 11:53
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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brewster wrote:

Here's LSP with Washington Park up on Patterson Plank dropped in. Washington Park has 3 ball fields, a football field, 9 tennis courts, 3 basketball courts, Volleyball court, playgrounds, has several roads running through it, and is still nothing dropped into the LSP "wilderness".

Resized Image


VERY interesting.

Posted on: 1/12 10:59
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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brewster wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
Wetlands should not be filled. They will eventually flood again, the open space being proposed is great. The reason we have flooding in JC and other urban area is - too much black top. The rain has no way to go.


To my knowledge these acres are not wetlands. They may have been 150 years ago before the were filled in, but not in a long time. Ball fields would absorb rain just fine, they're not black top!

The reason most state parks do not have ball fields is that most of them are located in communities that have plenty of open space for parks. We do not. LSP has 10x more open space fenced off from the public than there is city parks in all of JC. We are far below what planners agree is minimum per capita parkland even if you include LSP, without it we're in the toilet.


Most of the park is land fill, pre railroad, way back, but I do recall about 15 - 20 years ago, there was even more natural marsh land behind the interpretative center. Salt marsh is/was the natural state for the area.

"LSP has 10x more open space fenced off from the public than there is city parks in all of JC." State your source of information; I doubt your original assertion is correct.

You conveniently overlooked my post detailing Ed "Faa" Ford and the newly constructed and very large Berry Lane park sports fields located a stone''s throw from LSP. Additionally, there is also Lincoln Park, Pershing Field, and Washington Park, that all have ball fields, athletic facilities - all very large muni/county parks, located in Jersey City.

Then there's Fisk park, Colgate park, as well as many smaller parks, peppered throughout the city that have basketball, tennis courts, etc.

Jersey City is roughly the same size as Manhattan in square miles - actually slightly smaller. You mention Central Park - unlike that great park - Jersey City's park sports facilities do not have a wait list/signup requirement to use. Quite the opposite.

That is, to add more sports/athletic fields to a LSP is a waste. There is already a sufficient amount of supply to meet demand. Actually much more.

Like I mentioned before the State does not do sports fields. Unlike your "located in communities hypothesis", many of the state parks are located in remote rural(ish) parts of the State.
You'd have leave Hudson County to figure that out and travel a significant distance to see firsthand at another/next state park. The Division of Parks & __Forestry__ have an excellent website (and iOS app) that will tell you all about the state parks, including their amenities, like here:
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/parks/parkactivity.html


What the urban area needs is more of what is proposed - natural landscapes and land preservation. That is what NJ State Parks are all about and is in much less supply in Hudson County.


Posted on: 1/12 10:05
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


What a load of crap!

Posted on: 1/12 10:01
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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LSP is a state asset, not a JC asset. Turning over acreage for JC Little League control is a pipe dream.

Posted on: 1/12 7:00
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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135jc wrote:
[quote] There are plenty of cities that have thriving waterfronts with many restaurants and amenities. The park could use this land to create an awesome place to visit and create much needed revenue. A marina, restaurant, hotel, amphitheater would provide that


The place for that is above the Morris canal, not the park. Problem is the city has been utterly stoneless over decades in producing a vision for our waterfront and inducing developers to create it, rather than the incoherent mess we have.

Posted on: 1/12 1:28
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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tern wrote:
Agreed Brewster, there is a huge need for sports fields in Jersey City, Liberty State Park could fit a dozen, and still have plenty of quiet nature space left.

Another thing they should put in Liberty State Park is the mother of all dog runs, some massive 20 acre thing, I don't have a dog, just want dog-people to have somewhere to go.

Robin.


Try making your way over to Lincoln Park they have plenty of ball fields. Plus there are other gated ball fields that we paid for with tax dollars. Try lobbying to get on one of those. There are plenty of cities that have thriving waterfronts with many restaurants and amenities. The park could use this land to create an awesome place to visit and create much needed revenue. A marina, restaurant, hotel, amphitheater would provide that

Posted on: 1/12 0:12
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

TheBigGuy wrote:
Quote:

135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


This is simply a bait and switch tactic from Christie and his hacks to press the marina forward. The marina is already getting a discount on their bulkhead repair and they will never pay full value for anything related to their operation.

Wouldn't it be nice to issue an RFP solicit bids for marina proposal to see the real value of this project? This new wetlands proposal will be tied up in the court for years while the marina plows forward. .

Huh?

What does the proposed wetlands have to do with the marina?

Who is going to sue to stop the remediation?



Is it a mere a coincidence that the same public agency sneakily pushing the marina plan suddenly dusts off a plan that was not feasible 10 years ago? Curious how big this settlement fund is...

Do you really think the DEP will let the renovation of marina 1 / bulkhead, the construction of marina 2 and this wetlands remediation project all go at the same time?

You have more faith in the DEP than I do. Interesting the Wetlands project will go out to bid, but the new marina project doesn't.

Posted on: 1/11 22:32
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brewster wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Wetlands should not be filled. They will eventually flood again, the open space being proposed is great. The reason we have flooding in JC and other urban area is - too much black top. The rain has no way to go.


To my knowledge these acres are not wetlands. They may have been 150 years ago before the were filled in, but not in a long time. Ball fields would absorb rain just fine, they're not black top!

The reason most state parks do not have ball fields is that most of them are located in communities that have plenty of open space for parks. We do not. LSP has 10x more open space fenced off from the public than there is city parks in all of JC. We are far below what planners agree is minimum per capita parkland even if you include LSP, without it we're in the toilet.


I have seen contracts in JC where ball fields are not black tops but artificial grass. I do not know the condition of every ball field in JC, but plastic on the ball field is not the same as grass.

Posted on: 1/11 22:03
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Yvonne wrote:
Wetlands should not be filled. They will eventually flood again, the open space being proposed is great. The reason we have flooding in JC and other urban area is - too much black top. The rain has no way to go.


To my knowledge these acres are not wetlands. They may have been 150 years ago before the were filled in, but not in a long time. Ball fields would absorb rain just fine, they're not black top!

The reason most state parks do not have ball fields is that most of them are located in communities that have plenty of open space for parks. We do not. LSP has 10x more open space fenced off from the public than there is city parks in all of JC. We are far below what planners agree is minimum per capita parkland even if you include LSP, without it we're in the toilet.

Posted on: 1/11 21:30
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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It is a state park. There is no state park in NJ that has many sports fields. Jersey City just opened a new park with lots of sports facilities not far from LSP - berry lane park. And there is another off Caven Point rd, not far from LSP.

Posted on: 1/11 20:20
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


This is simply a bait and switch tactic from Christie and his hacks to press the marina forward. The marina is already getting a discount on their bulkhead repair and they will never pay full value for anything related to their operation.

Wouldn't it be nice to issue an RFP solicit bids for marina proposal to see the real value of this project? This new wetlands proposal will be tied up in the court for years while the marina plows forward. .

Huh?

What does the proposed wetlands have to do with the marina?

Who is going to sue to stop the remediation?

Posted on: 1/11 19:37
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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135jc wrote:
My point exactly. Build the marina a restaurant and maybe an amptheater on 10 acres and expand the park into the 240 acres that are unused now. Make the new marina pay for the expansion and the bulkhead. It could be a world class destination on a very underutilized waterfront.


This is simply a bait and switch tactic from Christie and his hacks to press the marina forward. The marina is already getting a discount on their bulkhead repair and they will never pay full value for anything related to their operation.

Wouldn't it be nice to issue an RFP solicit bids for marina proposal to see the real value of this project? This new wetlands proposal will be tied up in the court for years while the marina plows forward. .

Posted on: 1/11 19:24
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Re: N.J. to turn 240 acres of Liberty State Park into wildlife oasis
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Wetlands should not be filled. They will eventually flood again, the open space being proposed is great. The reason we have flooding in JC and other urban area is - too much black top. The rain has no way to go.

Posted on: 1/11 17:56
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