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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Gabe Ambrozia did this work for us. We had the meter and valve replaced because we rec'd a letter from United Water that we had to -- yes, he froze the pipe and then replaced the valve and meter (it was too risky to try to turn off our old valve, I think). I think he also got sign off from the city for replacing the meter so we didn't have to have United Water come out again.

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ddm wrote:
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BergenWood wrote:
For original poster:
We had the interior water value replaced in our old house for about $850 (6 years ago). The original cost we heard about was very, very high, and the process sounded scary (freezing the pipe as mentioned), but it ended up being pretty straightforward. Good luck!

Thanks for your response. Can you please elaborate on what exactly was done in your case? All plumbers I spoke to say we need to freeze the pipe and then replace the valve but none of them do it.

Just to clarify - the valve on the street side before the meter is not working and there is no shut off valve on the curb/street. Water company and city say there is nothing they can do but they will penalize me if I don't get the the meter changed.

Posted on: 9/19 12:33
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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You (or your plumber) should just rent one of these.

https://youtu.be/XeNZzaEzeqg

or

https://youtu.be/LmUUtJGIjHI

Posted on: 9/19 11:54
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Quote:

BergenWood wrote:
For original poster:
We had the interior water value replaced in our old house for about $850 (6 years ago). The original cost we heard about was very, very high, and the process sounded scary (freezing the pipe as mentioned), but it ended up being pretty straightforward. Good luck!

Thanks for your response. Can you please elaborate on what exactly was done in your case? All plumbers I spoke to say we need to freeze the pipe and then replace the valve but none of them do it.

Just to clarify - the valve on the street side before the meter is not working and there is no shut off valve on the curb/street. Water company and city say there is nothing they can do but they will penalize me if I don't get the the meter changed.

Posted on: 9/19 10:00
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Dan is the man. Too bad however, he has a hot water boiler.

Posted on: 9/15 21:24
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Call Ezzy from Corrado Mastropaolo Plumbing: 347-436-6593. He counted the tines in my radiators and consulted radiator manuals from the 1950s to make sure my boiler was the proper size. He replaced my near boiler piping, replaced leaky valves and clogged vents, and insulated the mains and risers. I had read the book "Greening Steam" by Dan Holohan and he was the first person that came to give me an estimate that knew everything I had read and he executed it correctly. The steam system runs great now -- no knocking and fairly even heat throughout the house. Highly recommend him.

Posted on: 9/15 21:19
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Hmm, I do have it but didn't know it capped at 7K. I just know it covers up to the curb. Yeah, that wouldn't cover ripping the sidewalk up.

Posted on: 9/14 18:07
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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dmark526 wrote:
Unless he/she had purchased the insurance that Suez offers. Then they would've been covered to the street.







Are you using that plan?
couldn't hurt but read the limit is 7k and a water main feed is well over that with the sidewalk work they omit from the contract.

I used the PSE&G worry free service contract until actually had to call them to use it.


Posted on: 9/14 17:59
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Unless he/she had purchased the insurance that Suez offers. Then they would've been covered to the street.



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I don't see where it was mentioned that he has a steam system. I assumed hot water boiler. For the MJ, an appropriate fudge factor is already built in. Upsizing from that is what typically results in an oversized heating plant.



Yes it took a somewhat pedantic turn.

If the cutoff line in the street is not working as the OP stated then unfortunately it's the homeowners portion of the lead from the main and its his nickel in getting it fixed.




Posted on: 9/14 15:20
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Dinger wrote:
I don't see where it was mentioned that he has a steam system. I assumed hot water boiler. For the MJ, an appropriate fudge factor is already built in. Upsizing from that is what typically results in an oversized heating plant.



Yes it took a somewhat pedantic turn.

If the cutoff line in the street is not working as the OP stated then unfortunately it's the homeowners portion of the lead from the main and its his nickel in getting it fixed.




Posted on: 9/14 14:35
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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I don't see where it was mentioned that he has a steam system. I assumed hot water boiler. For the MJ, an appropriate fudge factor is already built in. Upsizing from that is what typically results in an oversized heating plant.

Posted on: 9/14 14:25
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Bamb00zle wrote:
iGreg, I personally wouldn't use copper in a steam system for several reasons. The expansion coefficient of copper and the heat loss through thin-walled copper pipe is too great. Also, assuming you can find them, sufficiently large, correctly sized copper pipes on the steam-supply side would be cost prohibitive. For steam, I'm of the view that iron (black) pipes and threaded fittings are the way to go. You're dead right that there will be some corrosion and “mud” sediment build up over time. That said, the iron pipes in the old house I sold recently were 100+ yrs old. With a little TLC over the years – changing a valve, flushing a radiator like you suggested – that system still worked great. I was in awe of the craftsmen who installed it all those years ago. If you're installing a new hot water based system, then of course, you're absolutely correct copper, almost without exception, is the better choice.



You make many valid points.

From speaking and paying the endless plumbers who know & work on these old steam systems - I'm told it's one of the best heating systems still available; but as noted with proper tweaks and upkeep.


Posted on: 9/14 13:52
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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brewster wrote:
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iGreg wrote:

Steam is moisture and moisture causes rust, there is plenty of air inside those old pipes that would certainly constitute enough oxygen (and in fact does).



Your science is rusty. Moisture doesn't cause rust, oxygen does. Moisture simply enables the oxygen to react with the iron to form iron oxide: rust. In a closed heating system like steam or even baseboard, there's no source of oxygen. Almost no fresh water with O2 is let in. This is why potable water systems that have fresh water running through them all the time NEVER use black pipe, only galv or copper. But even a baseboard boiler has everything but the actual risers and radiators black pipe.



Does the word sediment work better for you?

Also I should have clarified that using copper piping would only replace the level return pipes back into the system as this is where years of sediment builds up and black pipe is much more prone to this 'sediment' than thick copper pipes.


Posted on: 9/14 13:24
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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iGreg wrote:

Steam is moisture and moisture causes rust, there is plenty of air inside those old pipes that would certainly constitute enough oxygen (and in fact does).



Your science is rusty. Moisture doesn't cause rust, oxygen does. Moisture simply enables the oxygen to react with the iron to form iron oxide: rust. In a closed heating system like steam or even baseboard, there's no source of oxygen. Almost no fresh water with O2 is let in. This is why potable water systems that have fresh water running through them all the time NEVER use black pipe, only galv or copper. But even a baseboard boiler has everything but the actual risers and radiators black pipe.

Posted on: 9/14 13:13
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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iGreg, I personally wouldn't use copper in a steam system for several reasons. The expansion coefficient of copper and the heat loss through thin-walled copper pipe is too great. Also, assuming you can find them, sufficiently large, correctly sized copper pipes on the steam-supply side would be cost prohibitive. For steam, I'm of the view that iron (black) pipes and threaded fittings are the way to go. You're dead right that there will be some corrosion and “mud” sediment build up over time. That said, the iron pipes in the old house I sold recently were 100+ yrs old. With a little TLC over the years – changing a valve, flushing a radiator like you suggested – that system still worked great. I was in awe of the craftsmen who installed it all those years ago. If you're installing a new hot water based system, then of course, you're absolutely correct copper, almost without exception, is the better choice.

Posted on: 9/14 12:54
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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iGreg, I was told the closed system nature of steam didn't allow in the oxygen needed for rusting, which is why we have these 100 year old systems and radiators instead of piles of rust.



Steam is moisture and moisture causes rust, there is plenty of air inside those old pipes that would certainly constitute enough oxygen (and in fact does).

Peek inside the level sitting pipes and you'll see - there are often capped ends in the older systems allowing for access.

Those ancient cast iron radiators can be flushed out for more efficiency as well (years of crappy sediment inside) - replacing them with those neat smaller units is in fact quite nice but exceptionally expensive to have done correctly.


Posted on: 9/14 12:20
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Bamb00zle wrote:
Or put the parking police onto the contractor each and every day. Who wants competition if you can lock up the local market completely. The end result - very few reliable, competent, reasonably priced contractors around.


Years ago I had stairmakers from Brooklyn here, they got booted the 1st day. That competent steam guy I mentioned earlier swore he'd never work here again after getting jerked around on inspections for months.

iGreg, I was told the closed system nature of steam didn't allow in the oxygen needed for rusting, which is why we have these 100 year old systems and radiators instead of piles of rust.

Posted on: 9/14 11:50
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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For original poster:
We had the interior water value replaced in our old house for about $850 (6 years ago). The original cost we heard about was very, very high, and the process sounded scary (freezing the pipe as mentioned), but it ended up being pretty straightforward. Good luck!

Posted on: 9/14 10:36
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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I should add to my prior post, just briefly. Those steam / return pipes (to and from the boiler) must be correctly sized and pitched as well. The near boiler piping needs to be BIG. If you're replacing a boiler, follow the boiler manufacturers directions for the near boiler piping very closely. And make certain the steam lines in the basement are insulated – it makes a huge difference to efficacy and speed of heat delivery to the right places.


Good point and also use copper pipes in place of the cheaper common black pipe that actually rusts inside and ends up like a heart attack victims clogged arteries.

If you have 'old black pipes' as your leads to and from boiler that date back to way back when - it's worth replacing them with copper for much improved heating efficiency.

#Winter




Posted on: 9/14 9:55
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Brewster, I'm not aware of anyone else in JC interested in, or capable of, doing that kind of work correctly. The last time I had work on my steam system I found a contractor from New York. The guy knew exactly what to do and how to do it. However, after dealing with the City Building Department for permits and inspection, he vowed he'd never, ever in a million years to come back to JC. Story of JC.... Use Building Dept contacts to “discourage” outside contractors from doing work here. Or put the parking police onto the contractor each and every day. Who wants competition if you can lock up the local market completely. The end result - very few reliable, competent, reasonably priced contractors around.

I should add to my prior post, just briefly. Those steam / return pipes (to and from the boiler) must be correctly sized and pitched as well. The near boiler piping needs to be BIG. If you're replacing a boiler, follow the boiler manufacturers directions for the near boiler piping very closely. And make certain the steam lines in the basement are insulated – it makes a huge difference to efficacy and speed of heat delivery to the right places.

Posted on: 9/14 7:57
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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When I was getting a new steam boiler one contractor was just ready to replace it with a similar rating. Another actually looked at every radiator and crunched the numbers for a smaller BTU boiler. I have a logging thermometer and it was interesting to watch the sine wave of the heat cycle.

Any recommendations of a heat guy to re-install radiators with new shutoff valves and cutting the feet? Prior to current reno the oak floor had been installed around the feet by some incompetent fools. I cut off the valves and capped the pipes during reno, but I'd rather not deal with new valves, spuds and getting the height right after the floors have been repaired. I've done it and it's a PITA. I know Chris at Royal, but was wondering if there was anyone else around. The guy who did the boiler is no longer doing residential.

Posted on: 9/13 23:41
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Dinger, we might be saying much the same thing, but it could help to make sure, to possibly prevent someone from making an expensive mistake installing incorrectly sized steam radiators or boiler.

Certainly, the starting point is a heat loss calculation for the building, adding each room's heat loss on the coldest anticipated day, so the system can meet the most extreme demands. Here's how I'd go about it. For steam heat, I size the individual room radiator BTU/hr for the heat loss of that room, then I total all those radiator loads, add an inefficacy “fudge” factor (say 25%), and that's the boiler size required in BTU/hr output. I'd then round up, if needed, to the larger nearest sized boiler. So, for example, if I calculate say 92,000 BTU/hr total load, I'd use a 100,000 boiler, not a 90,000.

Over-sized radiators for an otherwise adequate sized boiler – steam system, not hot water – will result in rooms with short runs from the boiler getting too hot, and rooms with the longest runs from the boiler heating too little, or not at all.... Steam will condense in the nearer, oversize radiators and never get to the distant radiators at the end of the run.

Over-sizing the entire system, but with matched boiler and radiator capacity, increases inefficiency due to short “on” cycles. It wont be cold, but some efficiency is lost. Of course, if its efficiency you're after steam isn't the best. But as you know many old houses around here have one-pipe steam systems that are tough to convert to hot water, so basically they're stuck with them.

Right sized radiators (BTU/hr), pitched so they drain correctly, with properly functioning radiator air vents, and radiator steam valves left fully opened, along with the right boiler control settings – particularly the pressuretrol – means steam will do well enough.

Posted on: 9/13 22:29
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Actually it's much more efficient to oversize your rads with an appropriately sized boiler, i.e. a boiler sized for your heat loss.

Posted on: 9/13 18:07
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Re: Home Improvement - downsizing radiators
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thanks

Posted on: 9/13 18:04
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Re: Home Improvement - downsizing radiators
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hero69 wrote:
yesterday i happened to be in an apartment in manhattan that was undergoing extensive renovation. i noticed that the large victorian cast iron radiators had been replaced with much smaller cast iron (and less intrusive imo) radiators, given that many houses now have double pane windows and insulation, is it practical to reduce radiator size by 50%, 25%? just wondering...any info, constructive feedback welcome


Absolutely. Those old radiators were sized for un-insulated buildings. Moreover, back in the day it was believed that keeping the windows closed was bad for your health – causing respiratory problems, influenza, TB and so on. Accordingly the steam heating systems were (over) sized to cope with windows that would be left open in winter.

With steam heating it's important to match radiator “capacity” and steam generation capacity (BTU's/hr) of the boiler, particularly so you don't undersize the boiler. If that happens steam condenses in the system and the distant radiators never get hot. Over-capacity of the boiler is also an issue, but at least you wont freeze with an over-size boiler. Charts on line give you the BTU capacity of a particular size radiator so you can "match" boiler output to radiator load.

Here are a couple of useful links:
http://www.columbiaheatingsupply.com/ ... ng%20Capacity%20Guide.pdf

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/category/steam

Posted on: 9/13 15:54
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Home Improvement - downsizing radiators
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yesterday i happened to be in an apartment in manhattan that was undergoing extensive renovation. i noticed that the large victorian cast iron radiators had been replaced with much smaller cast iron (and less intrusive imo) radiators, given that many houses now have double pane windows and insulation, is it practical to reduce radiator size by 50%, 25%? just wondering...any info, constructive feedback welcome

Posted on: 9/13 15:23
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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ddm wrote:
Hi, I received letter from Suez water to replace the water meter else they will shut off the water and there will be fine. The house is very old and the shut off valve on street side of meter does not work and needs to be replaced. I called suez and they told me there is nothing they can do and plumber needs to freeze the water line and then replace the valve. I doubt anyone will be able to do that. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance


Sounds like water supply to the house just needs to be shut off (out front) and then the inside valve (before the meter) needs to be changed. If Suez won't just do it when they change the meter -- then it should not be very expensive to have a plumber do it. The plumber will also have the tool to shut the valve out front off as well.

Posted on: 9/13 8:31
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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Posted on: 9/12 21:54
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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dmark526 wrote:
That doesn't make any sense. Suez is responsible for replacing their meter. Now if the main can't be shut off before the meter, then that would be your responsibility. Check your house, there is usually a valve on the inside of your house but before the meter.

As long as that valve can be shut off for them to replace, it shouldn't be a problem. If you're saying that both your inside valve and the street valve need to be replaced, then you have a pretty large job ahead of you.
i believe the homeowner would be responsible for the house valve, suez would have to pay for the street valve. t=you should talk to a plumber...maybe the plumber can break the concrete so that he/she could freeze the line

Posted on: 9/12 20:00
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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ddm wrote:
Hi, I received letter from Suez water to replace the water meter else they will shut off the water and there will be fine. The house is very old and the shut off valve on street side of meter does not work and needs to be replaced. I called suez and they told me there is nothing they can do and plumber needs to freeze the water line and then replace the valve. I doubt anyone will be able to do that. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance


Try these folks, it can be a big job Suez is prolly telling you need a new lead from the main to your house.

https://www.manta.com/c/mmsqcgf/e-v-dirt-works


#Suez Suks

Posted on: 9/12 17:19
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Re: Replacing shut off valve on the water main line
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That doesn't make any sense. Suez is responsible for replacing their meter. Now if the main can't be shut off before the meter, then that would be your responsibility. Check your house, there is usually a valve on the inside of your house but before the meter.

As long as that valve can be shut off for them to replace, it shouldn't be a problem. If you're saying that both your inside valve and the street valve need to be replaced, then you have a pretty large job ahead of you.

Posted on: 9/12 15:36
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