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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
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thor800 wrote:
agreed - no one is saying that Joe shouldn't pay more, but how much more is the question.

if the 2% market value equalizer holds, I doubt many people will see any relief especially with the recent interest in BL, greenville, jsq, etc as a result of DTJC pricing out.


You are misunderstanding the property tax situation... It is not about the rate, but the deviation between the final rate decision, and what you pay at the moment as a factor of the market value of your home. Most of the properties in DTJC are paying effective rates of 1% or less (in some extreme cases, we have seen effective rates of 0.7% and lower) and for those properties the increase will be substantial. For people paying effective rates of 5% (as we have seen in many properties in Greenville, and BL) the tax drop should be fairly significant in terms of percentage, but in terms of dollars it will not be that high (for a property that is worth 200K, the drop from 5% to 2% would be 6K) while the increase in DTJC is much more significant because of the property values. A theoretical DTJC brownstone worth 1MM paying a 0.7% tax rate would see an increase of 13K if the rate is set at 2%.

Posted on: 9/6 16:32
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thor800 wrote:
if the 2% market value equalizer holds, I doubt many people will see any relief especially with the recent interest in BL, greenville, jsq, etc as a result of DTJC pricing out.


You're creating a causal connection between the rate and the assessments where there is none. This is the process:

1: they assess all the properties to come up with the new ratable base, the aggregate value of all the property.

2: They strike a rate on that value that brings in exactly the same tax as before.

It's extremely unlikely that the other wards are now as under assessed as DT. But if they are, then their taxes don't go down and yours don't go up.

Posted on: 9/6 15:06
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agreed - no one is saying that Joe shouldn't pay more, but how much more is the question.

if the 2% market value equalizer holds, I doubt many people will see any relief especially with the recent interest in BL, greenville, jsq, etc as a result of DTJC pricing out.

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thor800 wrote:
[quote]
not everyone that currently owns downtown has been living there forever and been substantially subsidized by other areas of the city. these areas have also seen increased values in the past few years and maybe wont see that golden $100 or $200 per month reduction by the reval - at most ? who will be crying now ?

OK, think of it this way.

Let's say that Joe bought a brownstone in 2015 for $800k, and is paying $8k per year in property taxes. After the reval, his taxes shoot up to $16k.

Joe has, in fact, already benefitted. By the time the reval takes effect, he'd have saved well over $25k just in a few years (as he should have been paying higher taxes in 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018). And someone else had to pay the taxes he didn't pay.

In addition, if we don't do the reval, or somehow shield Joe from his full obligation, he's still getting a tax break moving forward. Further, someone else is still paying the remainder of Joe's fair share, while he continues to reap the benefit not only of lower taxes, but also higher property values.


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telling someone that they shouldnt be pissed their taxes are skyrocketing based on an arguably inflated investor driven market and if they dont like it, then they can just sell and leave is just being a dick.

Yes and no.

Yes, in that the city should not have delayed the reval for 30 frickin' years. It should have done this about every 5 years, in which case people would see more frequent and significantly smaller changes in property taxes.

No, in that it is unjustified to be mad that you have to pay your fair share -- especially after getting a break, at some else's expense.

Griping about "inflated investor driven market" is nonsense, because the people whose taxes are going up have directly benefitted from that market. Nor is there any sign, even after people literally spending years predicting a massive crash, that JC is in an unsustainable real estate bubble.

Posted on: 9/6 12:54
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the bonding/reverse mortgage idea seems to make sense to me as a way of helping people who can't afford new taxes

Posted on: 9/6 11:19
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but couldn't those homeowners paying 3% have sought out relief through the tax accessor office ?


True, but a lot homeowners aren't that sophisticated about taxes. I wasn't until maybe 5 years ago when I bought a property at short sale and was inundated with lawyers offering to appeal for me. Didn't fly for that property but I successfully appealed for a property I'd owned since 2004.

But lets say everyone appealed who could. The base goes down,
so the rate goes up, and all the people who were paying half the previous rate are still underpaying, but by slightly less.

Posted on: 9/6 11:11
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not everyone that currently owns downtown has been living there forever and been substantially subsidized by other areas of the city. these areas have also seen increased values in the past few years and maybe wont see that golden $100 or $200 per month reduction by the reval - at most ? who will be crying now ?

OK, think of it this way.

Let's say that Joe bought a brownstone in 2015 for $800k, and is paying $8k per year in property taxes. After the reval, his taxes shoot up to $16k.

Joe has, in fact, already benefitted. By the time the reval takes effect, he'd have saved well over $25k just in a few years (as he should have been paying higher taxes in 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018). And someone else had to pay the taxes he didn't pay.

In addition, if we don't do the reval, or somehow shield Joe from his full obligation, he's still getting a tax break moving forward. Further, someone else is still paying the remainder of Joe's fair share, while he continues to reap the benefit not only of lower taxes, but also higher property values.


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telling someone that they shouldnt be pissed their taxes are skyrocketing based on an arguably inflated investor driven market and if they dont like it, then they can just sell and leave is just being a dick.

Yes and no.

Yes, in that the city should not have delayed the reval for 30 frickin' years. It should have done this about every 5 years, in which case people would see more frequent and significantly smaller changes in property taxes.

No, in that it is unjustified to be mad that you have to pay your fair share -- especially after getting a break, at some else's expense.

Griping about "inflated investor driven market" is nonsense, because the people whose taxes are going up have directly benefitted from that market. Nor is there any sign, even after people literally spending years predicting a massive crash, that JC is in an unsustainable real estate bubble.

Posted on: 9/6 10:01
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roughly 1.5% when I bought in 2015, but the past few years have seen crazy value increases in DTJC as well as Heights and JSQ albeit maybe not as much. It depends what those properties were assessed at and effectively paying though - if a property in JSQ at $50,000 paying $4,000 / year now has a market value of $500,000, its the same as a $100,000 paying $8,000 now worth $1,000,000 which I think is fairly reasonable though I do not know if the JSQ scenario is accurate. It seems like the rateable base is the question which will determine the market equalization ratio.

I understand the relativity concept, but couldn't those homeowners paying 3% have sought out relief through the tax accessor office ?


Posted on: 9/6 9:53
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thor800 wrote:
not everyone that currently owns downtown has been living there forever and been substantially subsidized by other areas of the city. these areas have also seen increased values in the past few years and maybe wont see that golden $100 or $200 per month reduction by the reval - at most ? who will be crying now ?

telling someone that they shouldnt be pissed their taxes are skyrocketing based on an arguably inflated investor driven market and if they dont like it, then they can just sell and leave is just being a dick.


What you don't seem to understand it the relativity of it. While other wards have gone up, so has DT. The big question is has the gap closed? I doubt it. But if it has, you taxes won't go up so much. And if you've owned at all while paying around 1%, you've been subsidized by 3 owners paying 3%.

Even if you've only owned DT a year, you made 15% according to Zillow. If you've owned here since you registered on JCList you've appreciated about 70%. There are a number of ways to access that equity to pay the tax on your asset.

But if you really don't care about your property appreciation, I'll make you an offer: sell me your home for what you paid for it and I'll net lease it back to you indefinitely for your current property expenses indexed to the JC HUD rent rates. Isn't that what you want, fixed expenses? I'd make back more than the taxes just in the depreciation!

Posted on: 9/5 23:47
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Does anybody know when they're coming to the Heights? I still haven't heard anything from them.

Posted on: 9/5 23:09
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Funny, those of us apposing the methodology of property tax calculation are due to get a $36K bill and those in favor obviously are not. Just because a value of a home has risen doesn't mean that the individual that lives in that home has the means to pay $36K year over year.


Stop being self-servingly obtuse. There is nothing wrong with the methodology. it is the same one used ALL OVER the USA. If someone bought a home for 300K, and that home has now risen to 1.5 MM, and they can't afford the taxes now, they still have options that all those other that have been subsidizing them do not have. Namely, the person has 1.2 MM in (unrealized) profit into which the person can can tap to pay off the tax burden: borrow against the property, or sell, or find another solution.

Complaining about having to pay higher taxes on a property that has appreciated tremendously, and for which taxes have been under assessed for a decade or longer, is like complaining about being taxed on lottery winnings: it is petty and will not get you far.


not everyone that currently owns downtown has been living there forever and been substantially subsidized by other areas of the city. these areas have also seen increased values in the past few years and maybe wont see that golden $100 or $200 per month reduction by the reval - at most ? who will be crying now ?

telling someone that they shouldnt be pissed their taxes are skyrocketing based on an arguably inflated investor driven market and if they dont like it, then they can just sell and leave is just being a dick.

Posted on: 9/5 20:21
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This thread is about reval not tax abatement. Thanks for pushing your agenda!

Posted on: 7/19 7:08
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Yvonne wrote:
I am in position to criticize tax abatment because develpers did not ask for them in the first place, it was offered to them by our mayors in exchange for repayment of tax dollars. Society Hill built on contaminated soil and not in Ward E, went up without any tax abatements. Another development Dixon Mills, no tax abatements. Colgate Redevelopment which is on the waterfront did not ask for a tax abatement neither did Newport. They both took the abatements after they were offered. Newport already had some building up and running when they took the tax abatements. Tax abatements hurt the people who pay the full taxes. When our school and county taxes go up, they do not feel that impact.


WTF are you rambling about? It has nothing to do with your lie about no revenue from abated properties.

Posted on: 7/18 21:18
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I am in position to criticize tax abatment because develpers did not ask for them in the first place, it was offered to them by our mayors in exchange for repayment of tax dollars. Society Hill built on contaminated soil and not in Ward E, went up without any tax abatements. Another development Dixon Mills, no tax abatements. Colgate Redevelopment which is on the waterfront did not ask for a tax abatement neither did Newport. They both took the abatements after they were offered. Newport already had some building up and running when they took the tax abatements. Tax abatements hurt the people who pay the full taxes. When our school and county taxes go up, they do not feel that impact.

Posted on: 7/18 15:09
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Funny, those of us apposing the methodology of property tax calculation are due to get a $36K bill and those in favor obviously are not. Just because a value of a home has risen doesn't mean that the individual that lives in that home has the means to pay $36K year over year.


Stop being self-servingly obtuse. There is nothing wrong with the methodology. it is the same one used ALL OVER the USA. If someone bought a home for 300K, and that home has now risen to 1.5 MM, and they can't afford the taxes now, they still have options that all those other that have been subsidizing them do not have. Namely, the person has 1.2 MM in (unrealized) profit into which the person can can tap to pay off the tax burden: borrow against the property, or sell, or find another solution.

Complaining about having to pay higher taxes on a property that has appreciated tremendously, and for which taxes have been under assessed for a decade or longer, is like complaining about being taxed on lottery winnings: it is petty and will not get you far.

Posted on: 7/18 13:59
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Yvonne wrote:
Port Liberte had a 15 year tax abatement, normally people go to tax court and appeal when their abatement expires. Nearly one third of JC properties are still tax abated, if no abatements existed, everyone would probably have a oneg third lower tax bill.


That could possibly be true if abated properties actually paid nothing, but they pay plenty, they all pay a higher effective rate than the 1% you did in Van Vorst Park. Many pay far more than the downtown properties that are going to see the hit, since their tax break is on a market price not a thirty-year-old assessment.

Posted on: 7/18 13:42
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Port Liberte had a 15 year tax abatement, normally people go to tax court and appeal when their abatement expires. Nearly one third of JC properties are still tax abated, if no abatements existed, everyone would probably have a one third lower tax bill.

Posted on: 7/18 12:54
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No worries, I can afford the increase. It's my neighbors that I'm more concerned about. As is, we've already had a couple individuals leave after living here for 10-20 years. It's a shame because the appeal to me is that we have a good mix of new and old.

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Azul_the_Cat wrote:
I find it funny that you think others should carry your tax burden just because you failed to do your due diligence. When I bought my first home downtown the taxes were low, like most homes in DTJC, so we went to the assessor's office and asked about it. Yes I got hit with a huge tax bill in the following cycles, but it gave me time to plan ahead.

When the value of your home rises, but you can't afford the taxes, you need to move or find a way to afford your taxes. It's wrong, not to mention incredibly selfish, to think that you should get a break just because the value of your home went up.

Be an adult and deal with your problems. Stop trying to pass them off on anyone else but yourself. Then again, you're the one with opinions like taxes should be based on lot size rather than value, so I won't hold my breath you are going to do what you're supposed to do.

Posted on: 7/18 12:36
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Did anyone else see the Port Liberte condo in the NYTimes "What's selling now' column in the real estate section? I'll bet this owner can't wait for the reval. 1br, 1.5 bath, selling price $410,000-tax bill is $12,655!

Posted on: 7/18 12:34
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Funny, those of us apposing the methodology of property tax calculation are due to get a $36K bill and those in favor obviously are not.


Why would you think that? I'm going to get a bill at least that. I just don't think I'm entitled to have others pay my share of the taxes, as has been the case.

The spending habits of JC really have nothing to do with the reval, it's about housekeeping not spending. But if it wakes people up to pay attention to where the money does go, that would be a great thing. I do not doubt for minute there's tremendous waste, and has been for generations.

Posted on: 7/18 12:06
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I find it funny that you think others should carry your tax burden just because you failed to do your due diligence. When I bought my first home downtown the taxes were low, like most homes in DTJC, so we went to the assessor's office and asked about it. Yes I got hit with a huge tax bill in the following cycles, but it gave me time to plan ahead.

When the value of your home rises, but you can't afford the taxes, you need to move or find a way to afford your taxes. It's wrong, not to mention incredibly selfish, to think that you should get a break just because the value of your home went up.

Be an adult and deal with your problems. Stop trying to pass them off on anyone else but yourself. Then again, you're the one with opinions like taxes should be based on lot size rather than value, so I won't hold my breath you are going to do what you're supposed to do.

Posted on: 7/18 11:52
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Funny, those of us apposing the methodology of property tax calculation are due to get a $36K bill and those in favor obviously are not. Just because a value of a home has risen doesn't mean that the individual that lives in that home has the means to pay $36K year over year.

Posted on: 7/18 11:04
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Thank you very much, will look into this further.

Posted on: 7/17 23:10
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I have a question. Does being 65 yrs. old & retired help to keep the property taxes somewhat in check ?
Thank you

Senior Freeze (Property Tax Reimbursement) Program
General Eligibility Requirements
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/ptr/eligibility.shtml

You must make less than $70k in 2016.

Posted on: 7/17 19:59
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I have a question. Does being 65 yrs. old & retired help to keep the property taxes somewhat in check ?
Thank you


In some states (and, I believe NJ is one of them) there is a homestead rebate for senior citizens. I am pretty sure this was covered by someone else in one of the reval threads. May be worth checking with Google.


Posted on: 7/17 19:55
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I have a question. Does being 65 yrs. old & retired help to keep the property taxes somewhat in check ?
Thank you

Posted on: 7/17 19:33
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100% agree. Property taxes should not me based on market value rather it should be based on a formula taking to account the lot size and square footage of home. That's black and white and no room for interpretation unlike actual value of a home. Then the only time a property tax would have to be re-calculated is if an addition is added. If you have 2 identical homes and one is renovated and the other is not, why should the homeowner that invested HIS/HER money into their home be penalized. Both homes regardless of value are still using the same level of city services. Likewise, why should someone with a lot size 16x100 pay more than a home in another part of the city that is on a lot 50x100. Makes no sense.

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bodhipooh wrote:
While I can certainly understand (and, perhaps even sympathize) with the concept that the tax increase will be hard (even impossible) for some to absorb, it should also be pointed out that people have had time to plan accordingly (as Pebble points out) and those same people that will get a huge tax increase have been getting a free ride for a long time, some even 10+ years. It is hard to feel bad for someone who has been saving 10-15 K per year by being under assessed and did nothing to prepare for what should have been an obvious future increase in tax levy.

I have heard people gloating about their insanely low tax bills in DTJC, so yeah... this increase will hit them hard, but they are now conveniently forgetting about the many years of riding the gravy train.


No one should have to pay close to 2% of this market value for a condo or a 25x100 lot. It's absurd with all the business here and such a large tax base. Those are suburban rates. Hopefully the reval will put some pressure on the Administration to cut waste out of the budget.


I dont understand this logic, at all. Should all 4-wheel vehicles, with four seats and the same dimensions, pay the same amount of tax? All over the US, housing is taxed based on its value. It's the most "blind" way of taxing real estate.

Posted on: 7/17 18:56
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Imagine without this latest market uptick what tax % of value would be. 3-4%. That seems reasonable? How is it that Hoboken with not nearly the industry keeps taxes in line with JC? The fact that Jersey City doesn't fully fund their schools is even more proof that there is too much waste in the budget

Posted on: 7/17 18:08
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I'm not buying the idea that a 1/10th acre, 2,000 sq ft home in Greenville should be taxed the same as an identical size property on VVP. Besides all that, JC taxpayers benefit from suburban taxpayers supporting JC schools-to the tune of 2 billion dollars in the last four years. Imagine if JC homeowners had to pay their fair share what the taxes would be?

Posted on: 7/17 17:44
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Taxing on valuation is not perfect, but on balance it is the best way to do it. Most towns would fall to pieces if they employed your idea. Typically the wealthier homes carry a lot of the weight. If that changed those of lesser means would be blown out under your logic. JC is a very strange exception to this rule as it is currently a reverse Robin Hood situation.

I'm all for JC getting more taxes out of the commercial base, but not sure how much they really could squeeze relative to the total take.


Posted on: 7/17 17:04
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100% agree. Property taxes should not me based on market value rather it should be based on a formula taking to account the lot size and square footage of home. That's black and white and no room for interpretation unlike actual value of a home. Then the only time a property tax would have to be re-calculated is if an addition is added. If you have 2 identical homes and one is renovated and the other is not, why should the homeowner that invested HIS/HER money into their home be penalized. Both homes regardless of value are still using the same level of city services. Likewise, why should someone with a lot size 16x100 pay more than a home in another part of the city that is on a lot 50x100. Makes no sense.

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135jc wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
While I can certainly understand (and, perhaps even sympathize) with the concept that the tax increase will be hard (even impossible) for some to absorb, it should also be pointed out that people have had time to plan accordingly (as Pebble points out) and those same people that will get a huge tax increase have been getting a free ride for a long time, some even 10+ years. It is hard to feel bad for someone who has been saving 10-15 K per year by being under assessed and did nothing to prepare for what should have been an obvious future increase in tax levy.

I have heard people gloating about their insanely low tax bills in DTJC, so yeah... this increase will hit them hard, but they are now conveniently forgetting about the many years of riding the gravy train.


No one should have to pay close to 2% of this market value for a condo or a 25x100 lot. It's absurd with all the business here and such a large tax base. Those are suburban rates. Hopefully the reval will put some pressure on the Administration to cut waste out of the budget.

Posted on: 7/17 15:49
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