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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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KOCTEP wrote:
If you have more than 153" of water column, you can see your own sh.. regardless your check-valve situation.


If you have a basement of 4' depth, a 153" water column would put the sewer level more than 8' above the street. I'm pretty sure that's not the case. You don't understand the physics.

Posted on: 5/13 12:28
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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BTW, I do have check-valve as I prefer rain water flood over a fecal matter. I worked on waterproofing of my basement since 2014 with various degrees of success. You better be judge of that.

Consider that my basement is 4' below the street level. As you can see the check-valve performance is the least of my worries. I got about an inch of water that came from the ground


https://youtu.be/b0vOs7zZfd0





Posted on: 5/12 23:52
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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iabide wrote:
Science is fun!!!

On that note, as KOCTEP hints, if the back-up in your "house" water (rain + flushes) is higher than whatever the sewer system is seeking, it will find that level somewhere in your house. As a downtown resident, I sometimes get the feeling that level is somewhere halfway between me and the Heights during the intense storms like Friday's.

Also, all this assumes static water pressure; dynamic pressure from movement on the city side may affect check valve functionality at near-neutral pressure, depending on which kind of check valve you may have. Finally, the house water can absolutely accumulate in your pipes (like roof water from Friday's intense dump) faster than it can equalize with where ever the sewer system's "level" may be (1/2 way up to the Heights?) ...thus, again, encouraging it to "level" in your house. To paraphrase Keynes, the pipes can remain out-of-level longer than my floor can remain dry.

Also, jcneighbor: a gentle suggestion to go easy on the snark. Your description of fluid dynamics is incorrect. Static water pressure is not a function of the volume of water, just elevation. A 6" swimming pool of water draining through a straw exerts the same amount of pressure as a 6" test tube at the same elevation draining through a straw of equal diameter. Even if the swimming pool weighs much, much more.

If my science is off, please do let me know. I would appreciate being corrected.

Thanks for the chat everyone and have a safe, dry weekend.


Oh boy, I knew this wouldn't go away easily...

As both Brewster and I already observed, volume has nothing to do with it. You're correcting me for something 2 of us already stated?? I fully understand the different influences of static vs. dynamic pressure, and the fact that "relative" pressure is the issue here. If the pressure in your house pipes is greater that the pressure in the sewer system it will drain. And I also observed that the diameter of any vertical pipe determines what the pressure is at the bottom of that column, measured in pounds per foot of vertical rise. Here's the table:

http://www.kellypipe.com/common-pipe- ... foot-lengths-of-pipe.html

As far as KOCTEP is concerned, a 2" pipe shooting 2' high means that 1) he/she doesn't have a check valve and lives in a very low lying area and 2) a 2" diameter pipe is 3.14 square inches and that would require a pressure of roughly 6.7 PSI to generate that amount of lift. So if you're crazy-enough to live in a low area without a check valve and the street pipes get under pressure (as they always will in those deluges) which exceeds the pressure of the water in the pipes in the house then yes, you will flood. There's a reason why most people don't put toilets or sinks 5' above the sewer line...



Posted on: 5/12 17:51
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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Science is fun!!!

On that note, as KOCTEP hints, if the back-up in your "house" water (rain + flushes) is higher than whatever the sewer system is seeking, it will find that level somewhere in your house. As a downtown resident, I sometimes get the feeling that level is somewhere halfway between me and the Heights during the intense storms like Friday's.

Also, all this assumes static water pressure; dynamic pressure from movement on the city side may affect check valve functionality at near-neutral pressure, depending on which kind of check valve you may have. Finally, the house water can absolutely accumulate in your pipes (like roof water from Friday's intense dump) faster than it can equalize with where ever the sewer system's "level" may be (1/2 way up to the Heights?) ...thus, again, encouraging it to "level" in your house. To paraphrase Keynes, the pipes can remain out-of-level longer than my floor can remain dry.

Also, jcneighbor: a gentle suggestion to go easy on the snark. Your description of fluid dynamics is incorrect. Static water pressure is not a function of the volume of water, just elevation. A 6" swimming pool of water draining through a straw exerts the same amount of pressure as a 6" test tube at the same elevation draining through a straw of equal diameter. Even if the swimming pool weighs much, much more.

If my science is off, please do let me know. I would appreciate being corrected.

Thanks for the chat everyone and have a safe, dry weekend.

Posted on: 5/12 16:44
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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A bit presumptions, but mostly correct.

See we all don't leave on the same elevation level. Some of us have parlor level where others have basement floors.

If you never seen fountains of raw sewage spring up 2' from basins, I invite you tomorrow to Center Street where you will see it for yourself (we will have 2" of cumulative precipitations) Do I need you to explain physics to calculate force needed to create 24" fountain?

It is quite to possible for sewers situated in low laying areas to have back-pressure of 5 or even 10 psi. Our beloved standard 4" PVC fittings are rated to 5.5 psi. If one doesn't have a check-valve expect to see sewage at the nearest maintenance port. If you have more than 153" of water column, you can see your own sh.. regardless your check-valve situation.



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brewster wrote:
Quote:

jcneighbor wrote:
And I'll add a bit more: It's all about the weight of water in a column. Let's say your vertical sewer drain pipe (or gutter downspout) is 4" in inside diameter. That means that for every foot of vertical rise there is a weight of 5.45 pounds. Now flush a toilet on the ground floor (above a basement) and you're draining about 10 feet down to the sewer line out to the street. Call it 55 pounds of pressure. Ain't no way, NEVER, the main sewer line is even remotely close to that pressure. Your check valve will happily pass it through-


SCIENCE!! Years ago I had a discussion with another sewer warrior who said the water came in with thousands of pounds of pressure. I gently tried to explain to him water pressure is roughly 0.5 psi per ft of column height. He refused, at length, to believe me. "But there's thousands of gallons out there!!" 10 ft down in the ocean is still only 5 psi.

This also is why it's perfectly ok to pump your basement back into the sewer pipe. It makes no difference to the sewer, the water will end up there either way if you pump it to the street where it runs into the sewer. But your pump will be more efficient only pumping exactly the pressure head needed to get to the flooded sewer water level, rather than to the street.

Posted on: 5/12 15:51
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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jcneighbor wrote:
And I'll add a bit more: It's all about the weight of water in a column. Let's say your vertical sewer drain pipe (or gutter downspout) is 4" in inside diameter. That means that for every foot of vertical rise there is a weight of 5.45 pounds. Now flush a toilet on the ground floor (above a basement) and you're draining about 10 feet down to the sewer line out to the street. Call it 55 pounds of pressure. Ain't no way, NEVER, the main sewer line is even remotely close to that pressure. Your check valve will happily pass it through-


SCIENCE!! Years ago I had a discussion with another sewer warrior who said the water came in with thousands of pounds of pressure. I gently tried to explain to him water pressure is roughly 0.5 psi per ft of column height. He refused, at length, to believe me. "But there's thousands of gallons out there!!" 10 ft down in the ocean is still only 5 psi.

This also is why it's perfectly ok to pump your basement back into the sewer pipe. It makes no difference to the sewer, the water will end up there either way if you pump it to the street where it runs into the sewer. But your pump will be more efficient only pumping exactly the pressure head needed to get to the flooded sewer water level, rather than to the street.

Posted on: 5/11 16:38
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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brewster wrote:
Just to clarify with a little physics, water seeks its own level. When your upstairs neighbor flushes, the level in the drainpipe will not rise above the level of the street sewer, it WILL drain, even if you have a check valve. If that sewer level is above your basement toilet or sink, then you have problems already, but they can become shittier.

As for BK, the trendy areas around Park Slope are on relatively high ground.


I was actually waiting to see if there were any other crazy theories besides the rain/gutter runoff or the "don't flush the toilets" or if someone intelligent would chime in with a reality check. Brewster wins!

And I'll add a bit more: It's all about the weight of water in a column. Let's say your vertical sewer drain pipe (or gutter downspout) is 4" in inside diameter. That means that for every foot of vertical rise there is a weight of 5.45 pounds. Now flush a toilet on the ground floor (above a basement) and you're draining about 10 feet down to the sewer line out to the street. Call it 55 pounds of pressure. Ain't no way, NEVER, the main sewer line is even remotely close to that pressure. Your check valve will happily pass it through-

Posted on: 5/11 16:30
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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Just to clarify with a little physics, water seeks its own level. When your upstairs neighbor flushes, the level in the drainpipe will not rise above the level of the street sewer, it WILL drain, even if you have a check valve. If that sewer level is above your basement toilet or sink, then you have problems already, but they can become shittier.

As for BK, the trendy areas around Park Slope are on relatively high ground.

Posted on: 5/11 13:46

Edited by brewster on 2017/5/11 14:11:51
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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mfadam wrote:
Do the low lying areas in Brooklyn have similar problems with basement flooding? I'm assuming they have same old sewage infrastructure that NO politician ever upgraded...

It is kinda crazy to think about what DTJC accepts as "part of the deal". I agree that when taxes are 20-40K depending on rowhouse value there will be a lot more pressure on City Hall to get us out of the third world...


I can't speak for ALL of Brooklyn, but none of my friends that have houses in BK have ever complained of such craziness. I do know that the sewer backup phenomenon happens in the properties in the vicinity of the Gowanus. I am not sure about frequency, but I do know it has been written up before in some blogs. Based on the newsworthiness of such events, it would seem it only happens in rare occasions, but I have no idea.

Posted on: 5/11 13:41
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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Do the low lying areas in Brooklyn have similar problems with basement flooding? I'm assuming they have same old sewage infrastructure that NO politician ever upgraded...

It is kinda crazy to think about what DTJC accepts as "part of the deal". I agree that when taxes are 20-40K depending on rowhouse value there will be a lot more pressure on City Hall to get us out of the third world...

Posted on: 5/11 13:37
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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HPYC wrote:
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iabide wrote:
One other potential source of flooding: when the sewers are full & your check valve is up, there's nowhere for the storm water from your roof to exit your building. (I'm assuming here you don't route your storm water directly out the alley or the front). I've had this issue from places where a high water table couldn't possibly be the culprit.



Totally agree. Other sources when the check valve is closed include waste water from inside the building (especially if there are multiple units in it), and sump pump discharge. When the city sewer is full and pressurized, there is nowhere for this water to go except backward, where it looks for the path of least resistance - which could be a floor drain, toilet, tub or any other opening in the line between you and the sewer. Tell your upstairs neighbors not to flush when it's raining ;)


In an affluent city, it is almost laughable that one would even consider resorting to asking upstairs neighbors not to flush when it is raining to avoid getting sewer backing into one's basement, or tubs. Shit like this (pun intended) is the stuff that will likely have a lot of DTJC owners up in arms once the reval is completed and new tax bills are mailed. I can't fathom paying 20K / year and having to deal with shit water in your bathtubs and basement on a regular basis.

Posted on: 5/11 12:51
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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iabide wrote:
One other potential source of flooding: when the sewers are full & your check valve is up, there's nowhere for the storm water from your roof to exit your building. (I'm assuming here you don't route your storm water directly out the alley or the front). I've had this issue from places where a high water table couldn't possibly be the culprit.



Totally agree. Other sources when the check valve is closed include waste water from inside the building (especially if there are multiple units in it), and sump pump discharge. When the city sewer is full and pressurized, there is nowhere for this water to go except backward, where it looks for the path of least resistance - which could be a floor drain, toilet, tub or any other opening in the line between you and the sewer. Tell your upstairs neighbors not to flush when it's raining ;)

Posted on: 5/11 11:20
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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mfadam wrote:
Ugh. There is a square cut out of the concrete slab to access the main where they put in check valve and you can see dirt/ground all around the pipe. If that were to be filled in with concrete we would have less sewer overflow getting into the basement but would have to cut it open again should the pipe or check valve need work.


It's possible to line it with cement and still leave the access panel to the check valve clear. But you'll still have water surging under your foundation doing damage. 20 years ago the MUA ran a camera down the sewer of my street and declared it full of crack and offsets. Then they said the only way they'd fix it was if it completely collapsed. Somehow in the recent sewer work in HP it was declared sound, despite the dire diagnosis back then.

Posted on: 5/9 21:39
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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One other potential source of flooding: when the sewers are full & your check valve is up, there's nowhere for the storm water from your roof to exit your building. (I'm assuming here you don't route your storm water directly out the alley or the front). I've had this issue from places where a high water table couldn't possibly be the culprit.


Posted on: 5/9 18:50
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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Ugh. There is a square cut out of the concrete slab to access the main where they put in check valve and you can see dirt/ground all around the pipe. If that were to be filled in with concrete we would have less sewer overflow getting into the basement but would have to cut it open again should the pipe or check valve need work.

JC sewers don't make it easy on a homeowner...


Posted on: 5/9 15:57
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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The sewers are ancient and leak like a sieve when the system fills to the brim because the pumps are inadequate to keep the level down. They leak into the street fill and then under your foundation. When the sewers flood the cracks in my foundation and slab squirt. Sorry I don't have better news. Water table has nothing to do with it, as soon as the sewers drop the basement flooding is over.

Posted on: 5/9 13:54
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Re: Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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Your check-valve has very little to do with the flooding. It prevents raw sewage to come back into your home sewer system. It helps to prevent raw sewage spilling out of maintenance ports.

Your flood problems have to do with water table levels. Downtown sits very low to the sea level. The top soil layer has a certain amount of absorbancy. At one point when It saturated enough the water table raises. Your water comes from underneath.

You could try to patch the cracks in the floor. I am not sure you will succeed.

Ultimately the city has to split storm and sewer system, create sewer overflow storage tanks. It would cost millions and won't bring any votes on upcoming elections. So get on your bike lane and pretend it doesn't smell.

Posted on: 5/9 13:53
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Basement flooding even after new check valve installed...
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We got flooded in Sandy/Irene. Not a surprise and post clean up we had a new check valve installed on the main pipe out to the street. When we get really intense rain like last Friday we still get water coming up from the cut out in concrete basement floor where the check valve is.

I'm pretty confident the check valve is working, but I'm trying to figure out what the cause might be. It only happens when there is pressure on the JC sewer system. Could it be that there is a small hole or crack in the main pipe somewhere between check valve and street that leaks when there are big rains/storms?

Curious if anyone else has had a similar experience... TIA

Posted on: 5/9 11:55
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