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Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Bamb00zle wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
PA definitely have issues with responsiveness and transparency, and some of the large projects they work on go way over budget.

However, the PA does put out a 10 year capital plan. It includes adding cars ($150m), signal replacement ($278m), Harrison expansion ($142m).... Might be worth reading if you want to know what they're up to.
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/pages/capital-plan/

Thanks, I see 50 new cars in the capital plan for the next 10 years. They have about 340 cars now, so 50 new cars is slightly under 15% increased capacity.....

FYI, that adds around 47,000 riders per day.

That's roughly equivalent to 940 buses. Per day.

Since not everyone who lives in JC works in NYC, and not everyone absolutely must be on the 8:18 AM train, and since (again) we've been hearing predictions of doom in this thread since 2008, what can I say? I've still got some optimism, certainly for the next 10 years.

Quote:

Where are their projections for service needs based on expected population and employment growth and commuting patterns?

No idea. Not sure how it matters, either -- they're not oblivious to the growth in the area.

Quote:

In the near future I expect to see PA police at station entrances during rush hour controlling the number of people entering.

Please, spare us the hysterics. Numerous MTA lines are worse than the PATH, and don't resort to Tokyo-style train pushers.

[QUOTE]As an aside, it was interesting to see the 78 million riders per year number in that PA document. PATH's overall annual deficit is over $400 million. Doing the math, that's about a $5 per ride deficit. Over 10 years, about $4 billion. Roughly the same amount as it cost to build the new WTC station the station Patrick Foye called ?a monument to waste?. Think how much bond money $400 million annually buys, and what a properly run Agency could do with that money to improve the system. [/quote]
I... think you're a bit unclear on the concept here.

Here's the 2017 budget
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/documents/2017-Budget-Book/

PATH ridership increased from around 72m in 2012, to around 80m in 2016, and they expect it to go up 2m this year

For 2017, estimated revenue is $198m
Operating expenses is $398m
Capital budget is $216m

So, that $416m in "subsidies?" That keeps the trains running, and pays for the upgrades you want.

Meanwhile, PATH is the red-headed stepchild of PA. Tolls, airports and rental of facilities make money; PATH loses money. No one wanted it in the first place. It's stunning that PA puts any resources into the PATH system.

Yes, big capital projects are difficult, they take longer than people expect, and they're easy to criticize. PA management also has lots of issues. That said, I'm fairly confident that it is much, much easier to armchair manage a multi-billion dollar multi-state agency that answers pretty much only to two governors, than to actually run the thing.

Posted on: 2017/4/6 2:33

Hamparkvet

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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The only solution will be to restore ferry services. The PATH Train is doomed.

Posted on: 2017/4/5 14:34

Bamb00zle

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
PA definitely have issues with responsiveness and transparency, and some of the large projects they work on go way over budget.

However, the PA does put out a 10 year capital plan. It includes adding cars ($150m), signal replacement ($278m), Harrison expansion ($142m).... Might be worth reading if you want to know what they're up to.
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/pages/capital-plan/

Thanks, I see 50 new cars in the capital plan for the next 10 years. They have about 340 cars now, so 50 new cars is slightly under 15% increased capacity ? when all cars are in service at the end of 10 years. That seems insufficient to me, given past and anticipated growth in JC, and other towns along the line ? Harrison, Newark, Hoboken.

Where does the 7 to 10 car increase come from? I don't see anything about that in the PA document. 10 car trains are not possible on the 33rd line due to the constraints previously mentioned. The WTC line 8-car trains could go to 10 cars AFTER the station upgrades complete. Last I looked nothing much was happening at Grove St....

I certainly agree about opacity and obfuscation at the PA. Where are their projections for service needs based on expected population and employment growth and commuting patterns? I didn't see any substantiating data with the capital plan. And what's the timeline? I haven't seen any announcements those 50 new cars are on order. I could have missed it, but I don't think so....

In the meantime, in my opinion and supported by remarks from the PA official quoted in the Hudson News report I cited, PATH is becoming overwhelmed. In the near future I expect to see PA police at station entrances during rush hour controlling the number of people entering. Why...? To prevent platform over-crowding and resulting serious public safety hazards, and to limit lengthening ?dwell-times? as people try to get off and on.

As an aside, it was interesting to see the 78 million riders per year number in that PA document. PATH's overall annual deficit is over $400 million. Doing the math, that's about a $5 per ride deficit. Over 10 years, about $4 billion. Roughly the same amount as it cost to build the new WTC station the station Patrick Foye called ?a monument to waste?. Think how much bond money $400 million annually buys, and what a properly run Agency could do with that money to improve the system.

What a mess...

Posted on: 2017/4/5 14:17

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Also, it should be noted that current JSQ / 33rd St trains run with 7 cars, not 8. So, if the station platform lengthening to 10-cars ever happens, it would represent a 40% capacity increase.

Regardless, I don't see that project ever getting off the ground...

You, uh, do know it's already in progress, right?

Part of the Harrison Station rebuild is to increase capacity to 10 cars.

It will take years, but it's already happening.

You really do have a comprehension problem, don't you?

Harrison is not part of the JSQ/33rd line. Yes, we all agree the NWK / WTC line is getting the longer platforms. I am saying I don't believe the 33rd St line will ever get the platform lengthening. And, if it happens, it will not be for many, many years. Maybe even 20 years. As a point of reference or comparison, consider this: the PA has spent over two years already in the installation of an elevator at the Grove St station. By the looks of it, it will be another two years before that thing is done and functional. Why should anyone believe the PA can get platforms (that lie under NYC, where litigious people will seek to stop any such project) lengthened in less than 20 years?

Posted on: 2017/4/5 12:16

Bike_Lane

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Also, it should be noted that current JSQ / 33rd St trains run with 7 cars, not 8. So, if the station platform lengthening to 10-cars ever happens, it would represent a 40% capacity increase.

Regardless, I don't see that project ever getting off the ground...

You, uh, do know it's already in progress, right?

Part of the Harrison Station rebuild is to increase capacity to 10 cars.

It will take years, but it's already happening.

It's happening on the NWK-WTC line. Bodhipooh is saying it won't happen on he 33rd line for ages, and I agree.

Posted on: 2017/4/5 12:16

WhoElseCouldIBe

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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What if they go rid of some of the seats at the ends of the cars and made the seats priority only? (Elderly, pregnant, sick, etc).

Posted on: 2017/4/5 1:29

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Also, it should be noted that current JSQ / 33rd St trains run with 7 cars, not 8. So, if the station platform lengthening to 10-cars ever happens, it would represent a 40% capacity increase.

Regardless, I don't see that project ever getting off the ground...

You, uh, do know it's already in progress, right?

Part of the Harrison Station rebuild is to increase capacity to 10 cars.

It will take years, but it's already happening.

Posted on: 2017/4/5 0:04

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Bamb00zle wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

erstrecs wrote:
Quote:
Once the number of trains in maxed out, then they're going to go from 8-car to 10-car trains. That's another 25 percent increase in capacity in addition to the 29 percent increase from the signaling upgrades.

But the current 8 car trains stretch the entire length of every station I'm aware of, how would a longer train pick up and drop off people?

The plan is to extend platforms at PATH stations. The NWK/WTC route should be able to accommodate the longer trains once Harrison is rebuilt and Grove is modified. For trains on the 33rd St lines, the platform elongating effort may prove too difficult/costly for it to happen any time soon.

Does anyone have a reliable source for the purported 29% increase in service after the signal system is complete?

I've never heard 29%.

Going from 7-car to 10-car trains increases capacity by 400 per trip.

Signal upgrades are going to "help" reach the goal of increasing capacity by 20%. I assume that optimistic number includes adding cars.

https://www.panynj.gov/path/systemwide-upgrades.html
Expand "New Signal System" and "Capacity"

Quote:

Train cars don't come cheap or quick, and with the Gateway tunnel and Midtown bus terminal rebuild projects sucking up vast amounts of PA cash over the next decade or so, I'm not holding my breath for any improvement in PATH service.

Actually, a bunch of the capacity improvements are already in progress.

Signal upgrades are underway, and are connected to mandatory improvements anyway

Harrison Station is already being redone, including the expansion

They've been adding new cars since 2009, and adding about 50 more starting in 2018

Quote:

It is very difficult to find reliable, trustworthy information about PATH. Too many vested interests, with too much money at stake for folks to be telling the truth....

PA definitely have issues with responsiveness and transparency, and some of the large projects they work on go way over budget.

However, the PA does put out a 10 year capital plan. It includes adding cars ($150m), signal replacement ($278m), Harrison expansion ($142m).... Might be worth reading if you want to know what they're up to.
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/pages/capital-plan/

Posted on: 2017/4/4 23:52

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Also, it should be noted that current JSQ / 33rd St trains run with 7 cars, not 8. So, if the station platform lengthening to 10-cars ever happens, it would represent a 40% capacity increase.

Regardless, I don't see that project ever getting off the ground... The amount of safety studies required just to satisfy and quell opposition in the various NYC neighborhoods impacted by that project would likely prove insurmountable. You have 5 stations in NYC that would need to be modified, along with additional egress capacity. Not likely to happen in the next 20 years.

Posted on: 2017/4/4 23:32

Bamb00zle

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

erstrecs wrote:
Quote:
Once the number of trains in maxed out, then they're going to go from 8-car to 10-car trains. That's another 25 percent increase in capacity in addition to the 29 percent increase from the signaling upgrades.

But the current 8 car trains stretch the entire length of every station I'm aware of, how would a longer train pick up and drop off people?

The plan is to extend platforms at PATH stations. The NWK/WTC route should be able to accommodate the longer trains once Harrison is rebuilt and Grove is modified. For trains on the 33rd St lines, the platform elongating effort may prove too difficult/costly for it to happen any time soon.

Does anyone have a reliable source for the purported 29% increase in service after the signal system is complete? The most I recall seeing is 20% and ominously even that seems to have disappeared from the PATH website. Any more than a trivial increase will require more trains sets, and I haven't seen anything about new trains cars on order. Anyone seen that anyplace?

When PATH finishes the Harrison and Grove upgrades to accommodate 10-car trains, in theory there could be a 25% capacity increase on the WTC line ? if they run the same number of trains with 10 cars in each train. That will also need more trains. So, again, anyone seen any orders for new train cars? Or even anything about that in the PATH capital budget plan....? I haven't.

On the 33rd line, I've read conflicting reports ? some say 8 car trains are possible, others say 7 is the max because of the station lengths AND the clearances through the points ? especially the multiple crossing points immediately to the north of Newport. Anyone have any verifiable information about that?

I've also read there's no feasible way stations on the 33rd line will ever be lengthened due to complex cost / engineering / environmental / safety concerns. If they want to extend the platforms, then one narrow egress isn't permitted on safety grounds, so they'd need to build additional entry/exit tunnels.

Train cars don't come cheap or quick, and with the Gateway tunnel and Midtown bus terminal rebuild projects sucking up vast amounts of PA cash over the next decade or so, I'm not holding my breath for any improvement in PATH service.

It is very difficult to find reliable, trustworthy information about PATH. Too many vested interests, with too much money at stake for folks to be telling the truth....

Posted on: 2017/4/4 22:25

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

erstrecs wrote:
Quote:
Once the number of trains in maxed out, then they're going to go from 8-car to 10-car trains. That's another 25 percent increase in capacity in addition to the 29 percent increase from the signaling upgrades.

But the current 8 car trains stretch the entire length of every station I'm aware of, how would a longer train pick up and drop off people?

The plan is to extend platforms at PATH stations. The NWK/WTC route should be able to accommodate the longer trains once Harrison is rebuilt and Grove is modified. For trains on the 33rd St lines, the platform elongating effort may prove too difficult/costly for it to happen any time soon.

Posted on: 2017/4/4 16:53

erstrecs

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Once the number of trains in maxed out, then they're going to go from 8-car to 10-car trains. That's another 25 percent increase in capacity in addition to the 29 percent increase from the signaling upgrades.

But the current 8 car trains stretch the entire length of every station I'm aware of, how would a longer train pick up and drop off people?

Posted on: 2017/4/4 16:26

MDM

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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JCGuys wrote:
Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
So what happened on the PATH today? Track condition?

Is track condition code word for suicide?

This was over 20 years ago... I walked onto the Newport platform moments after some women threw herself in front of the PATH train. The PA announced system delays "due to debris on the tracks". I never figured out if that announcement was an accident or someone had a really dark sense of humor.

Posted on: 2017/4/4 15:27

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
So what happened on the PATH today? Track condition?

Is track condition code word for suicide?

Posted on: 2017/4/4 14:54

Bike_Lane

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Track condition on PATH, I guess.

And then also PATH cross-honoring NJT passengers because of the NJT derailment yesterday.

Perfect recipe for an ugly commute.

Posted on: 2017/4/4 14:34

WhoElseCouldIBe

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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So what happened on the PATH today? Track condition?

Posted on: 2017/4/4 14:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWtFsU0SeH8

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

val7101 wrote:
You are probably confusing the alternate universe you are traveling in with reality.

Nope, I'm commuting in the real world. 5 days a week.

Quote:

Or else you are one of those people who just push into the train as long as they can get two toes in the door.

Not that either.

Quote:

Or just a troll on JC List with no actual experience.

Strike 3

As a reminder, ad hominems are not actually an argument.

Posted on: 2017/4/3 23:54

Bike_Lane

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Bamb00zle wrote:
My understanding is Federal regs preclude PATH trains running more frequently until the signal system has been updated. So it seems a fine point to say the signal upgrade is not mandated. But mandate or no, more reliable and frequent PATH service is badly needed.

Not to get too in the weeds, but the mention of "mandates" reminded me. There are two systems being installed here. One is required whether PATH wants to increase capacity or not, the other is needed to get the capacity to run more trains:

1. Positive Train Control (PTC) is required by federal law. All passenger and freight railroads in the U.S. must have PTC installed and operational by 2018. PTC addresses safety issues, but does not significantly impact capacity.

2. Communications-based train control (CBTC) will allow trains to run closer together, thereby increasing the effective capacity of the lines.

The signal work PATH has been doing for the past two years or so has been to install the systems for both. Here's a cute video the PA posted on youtube last year about the signal upgrades:

Posted on: 2017/4/3 23:27

WhoElseCouldIBe

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Quote:

Frank_M wrote:
Sleep?or a hassle-free morning commute.

Choose wisely

Or negotiate with your employer to come in later.

Hahaha. Cute.

Choose wisely

If you're valuable to the company, they will find a way.

Posted on: 2017/4/3 22:47

Frank_M

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Quote:

Frank_M wrote:
Sleep?or a hassle-free morning commute.

Choose wisely

Or negotiate with your employer to come in later.

Hahaha. Cute.

Choose wisely

Posted on: 2017/4/3 22:34

T-Bird

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

val7101 wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
[quote]So you're going to add 20 minutes to your commute, just to get a seat?

Is that what people are fretting about -- not getting a seat in the mornings? Seriously?

Guess you've never taken the path during rush hour.

I take it every work day, and on weekends as well. During rush hour.

Quote:
You can't get IN the train.

Total nonsense. Even for Newport riders.

It can get a little crowded, but it is extremely rare that the train is so jammed you can't get on. When that does happen, there's usually a half-empty train right behind it.

You want crowded? Try the 4/5/6 during rush hour.

You actually do live in a parallel universe (parallel tracks, technically) - Newport is not on the line that has the most severe crowding, by a longshot. The Newark-WTC line is the one that frequently has situations where you can't get on the train - had to let two go this morning at 9:10.

Posted on: 2017/4/3 20:19

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Bamb00zle wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
[quote]
PATH has never increased service? Lol. Just lasy year they increased service on the JSQ to 33rd line. They do it very gradually and only when capacity hits critcal levels.

Do you have any articles on that? I haven't seen anything, only discussion that signal work on the 33rd line ended in January or so.

My understanding is Federal regs preclude PATH trains running more frequently until the signal system has been updated. So it seems a fine point to say the signal upgrade is not mandated. But mandate or no, more reliable and frequent PATH service is badly needed.

On other fine points, there was no net increase in overall service (total number of trains running) with the May 2015 timetable change increasing trains from JSQ. The increase in JSQ trains was matched by a reduction on the HOB line. I'm not aware of any increase in service in 2016 (last year).

Here's what PATH was reported as saying at the time ? if you believe them:
http://www.hudsonreporter.com/view/fu ... rains-?instance=more_page

There are a lot of vested interests at play in discussions about PATH. Which developer wants it known that the PATH is a mess now, let alone what it will be after thousands more apartments are finished - in JC, Harrison and Newark, not to mention the EWR extension...

Right on the May 2015 change. That's what I meant when I said last year. (Oh how time passing by)

Posted on: 2017/4/3 19:54

Bamb00zle

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
[quote]
PATH has never increased service? Lol. Just lasy year they increased service on the JSQ to 33rd line. They do it very gradually and only when capacity hits critcal levels.

Do you have any articles on that? I haven't seen anything, only discussion that signal work on the 33rd line ended in January or so.

My understanding is Federal regs preclude PATH trains running more frequently until the signal system has been updated. So it seems a fine point to say the signal upgrade is not mandated. But mandate or no, more reliable and frequent PATH service is badly needed.

On other fine points, there was no net increase in overall service (total number of trains running) with the May 2015 timetable change increasing trains from JSQ. The increase in JSQ trains was matched by a reduction on the HOB line. I'm not aware of any increase in service in 2016 (last year).

Here's what PATH was reported as saying at the time ? if you believe them:
http://www.hudsonreporter.com/view/fu ... rains-?instance=more_page

There are a lot of vested interests at play in discussions about PATH. Which developer wants it known that the PATH is a mess now, let alone what it will be after thousands more apartments are finished - in JC, Harrison and Newark, not to mention the EWR extension...

Posted on: 2017/4/3 19:36

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
[quote]
PATH has never increased service? Lol. Just lasy year they increased service on the JSQ to 33rd line. They do it very gradually and only when capacity hits critcal levels.

Do you have any articles on that? I haven't seen anything, only discussion that signal work on the 33rd line ended in January or so.

Yes, but which point specifically?

Posted on: 2017/4/3 19:21

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

JCGuys wrote:
[quote]
PATH has never increased service? Lol. Just lasy year they increased service on the JSQ to 33rd line. They do it very gradually and only when capacity hits critcal levels.

Do you have any articles on that? I haven't seen anything, only discussion that signal work on the 33rd line ended in January or so.

Posted on: 2017/4/3 18:19

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

mastablasta wrote:
Quote:

bill wrote:
This file is from 2005 where they anticipated the the signal upgrades would be completed 2010-2015.

33rd st signal upgrade completed last year, has the service times increased since?

Not sure when the WTC upgrade will be completed...

The signal upgrades are a federal mandate. PATH is not doing this to ease crowding on the trains. After the upgrades, PATH could run trains more frequently. Will they? No. I have been riding PATH for 14 years and every time there is a new timetable, PATH has ALWAYS decreased service. I could be wrong, but I've never seen it where PATH has actually increased service.

The weekend service used to be like the weekday service where the JSQ train didn't go through Hoboken. They switched to what is it today and said it would only be temporary while they build the 9/11 museum.

Wrong. PTC is federally mandated. The signals that allow trains to run closer together is CBTC. Both upgrades are being done at the same time.

PATH has never increased service? Lol. Just lasy year they increased service on the JSQ to 33rd line. They do it very gradually and only when capacity hits critcal levels.

Posted on: 2017/4/3 17:28

JcDevil

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

JonnyF86 wrote:
The problem also is that the PA loses money on the PATH every year, even with growing ridership. So, they probably don't want to invest as the future returns are not there.

It's beyond me why an expensive expansion to EWR needs to happen. They have the AirTrain from NJT already. I just think adding a bunch of people with big suitcases (esp at rush hour) would make the overcrowding worse.

Separately but related - The PATH has been a disaster on weekend mornings lately, especially going to 33rd. Has anyone else noticed this? Last w/e, I eventually took the train to WTC and subway up to midtown since it didn't appear that any trains were going to 33rd at all after waiting close to 30 minutes.

This isn't a business, it's a public service. Making money isn't the point.

Posted on: 2017/4/3 16:26

Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

jcresident16 wrote:
seems we won't be able to use the PATH... Recent article says it's 37,000 new units - how are we going to fit?

https://jerseydigs.com/jersey-city-real-estate-development-2017/

If nothing changes between now and 2019 or 2020, and the trains become so crowded you can't get on one heading to NYC by the time it arrives at Grove, just take ride it one station away to JSQ, stay seated and ride it back to NYC.

So you're going to add 20 minutes to your commute, just to get a seat?

Is that what people are fretting about -- not getting a seat in the mornings? Seriously?

Your reading comprehension is a little poor, as others have already pointed out.

My reading comprehension is fine. I'm not the one who suggested adding 20 minutes to a commute just to get a seat. 0

NO one is saying to add 20 minutes to get a seat. That's the reading comprehension problem you are having.... Others got what I was trying to say: ride to JSQ and remain inside the train, as it will come back around. Whether you get a seat or not, is immaterial. In fact, I prefer to stand, as I always worry about some asswipe too preoccupied with their phones spilling a coffee on those sitting down.

Posted on: 2017/4/3 15:34