Register now !    Login  
Main Menu
Who's Online
36 user(s) are online (27 user(s) are browsing Message Forum)

Members: 0
Guests: 36

more...




Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users






Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#15
Just can't stay away
Just can't stay away


Hide User information
Joined:
2016/2/17 14:49
From JC
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 85
Offline
I hate our hardwired smoke and carbon monoxide detectors, ( it's a dual unit) and there are 3 of them, we gut reno'd our condo in a 6 unit building, the building itself was not touched.
When the final inspector showed up, all he really looked at and measured was the detectors before he gave me my sticker.
When he set them off, it was like we were at DEFCON 1.

Posted on: 2/10 9:59
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#14
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


Hide User information
Joined:
2012/6/24 15:01
From Marion
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 46
Offline
Has any part of the building recently had major renovation? The inspector could have been under the impression the entire building was recently renovated, thus requiring hard wired smoke detectors.

Posted on: 2/9 22:52
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#13
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2004/11/6 16:13
From Hamilton Park
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 4936
Offline
Quote:

Bamb00zle wrote:
Inspector arrives at your doorstep with the records and says – look it has right here that you have AC connected smoke alarms, where are they?


At that point I would tell them to find the permit application for the renovation electrical work to this nonconforming property. No permit, no hardwiring, right?

Posted on: 2/9 22:23
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#12
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2015/4/28 21:47
From DT JC
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 177
Offline
Quote:

ConstantReader wrote:
I currently have two working battery-operated smoke detectors in my unit, so I'm interpreting this to mean that I've been found in violation for not having a hard-wired fire detector in my unit.

Can this be right? I thought hard-wired fire detectors were required only for new construction. My building was constructed in the 1920s and converted to a condo in the 1980s.


ConstantReader, the confusion the Inspector created by mistakenly stating you have AC powered-alarms leads to exactly the kind of situation that SixthBoro raises. Think about it for a minute.... You don't correct the record about the alarms, and in 12 months when the JCFD gets their Bureau of Fire Prevention up and running, another Inspector arrives at your doorstep with the records and says – look it has right here that you have AC connected smoke alarms, where are they? At that point you'll be tearing open walls to have electrical cable run so you can get the resulting violation abated..... Get that violation notice corrected to indicate you have battery-powered alarms and have the Inspector sign it.

Posted on: 2/9 21:15
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#11
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2015/4/28 21:47
From DT JC
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 177
Offline
Sixthboro, the hypothetical situation you raise – someone replaces their hardwired alarms with battery operated alarms – would be a problem, if it happened. However, if an inspector believed that it had in fact happened, then it would not be appropriate to issue a violation using 5:70-3. The provisions at 5:70-3.1 (d), further highlighted in the DFS Bulletin 2010-4, are very clear in that regard. Your hypothetical example cannot be handled by issuing a violation under 5:70-3. Additionally, 5:70-3.1 (d) clearly states how such a violation must be cited. The fact that a trained, certified, empowered NJ state inspector used 5:70-3 is in and of itself clear evidence the Inspector did not conclude any problem such as raised in your hypothetical example exists in the OP's situation.


Posted on: 2/9 20:52
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#10
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2004/11/6 16:13
From Hamilton Park
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 4936
Offline
Quote:

Haggis wrote:
I hate them.


The detectors, inspectors, or both?

What were you required besides smokes in the bedrooms, a CO outside of them and a smoke "near" the kitchen?

Posted on: 2/9 20:51
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#9
Just can't stay away
Just can't stay away


Hide User information
Joined:
2016/2/17 14:49
From JC
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 85
Offline
We recently renovated our unit, was told by our contractor that we needed to put in hard wired detectors, when the final inspection JC guy from the building dept showed up, that was all he really looked at. I hate them.

Posted on: 2/9 19:49
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#8
Quite a regular
Quite a regular


Hide User information
Joined:
2012/6/24 15:01
From Marion
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 46
Offline
If at any point there were hard wired detectors installed, they must be maintained for the life of the building. Whenever a higher level of protection is installed, you cannot remove them and place a lower level of protection. Since the hard wired is deemed higher, a battery operated one cannot replace it, however, it can supplement it. This applies to smoke detectors and sprinkler systems. To go to a lower level, it would require approval from engineers and the fire sub code official.

Posted on: 2/9 18:15
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#7
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2015/4/28 21:47
From DT JC
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 177
Offline
You're welcome Brewster. My thanks to the OP for posting the question and providing the code reference cited in the violation.

I've never asked NJ DCA about the Fire Code, so I'm not sure how they'd respond. What I do know is when I asked DFS, their response was so unprofessional it amounted to thinly veiled extortion in my humble opinion, basically telling me: “Do what we say, or you'll pay....”

One point I neglected to mention in my prior post might be important down the road. There is an error in the original citation – if the OP's facts are accurate. It seems the Inspector mistakenly indicated there are already AC connected alarms inside the OP's apartment. Since this is not accurate (according to the post) OP needs to correct the record by noting the error. Leaving it stand could lead to difficulties later on: “... the inspector wrote at the time, and you did not disagree, there is a hardwired alarm in your apartment....” My approach is to put everything in writing with these people. A simple statement now, along the lines, “The apartment has existing, battery-operated smoke alarms” should do.

There is also a very limited amount of time to “appeal” an alleged violation – 15 days from memory – it's someplace on the back of the notice. So any objection needs to be filed promptly. And as an aside, whatever the OP does the one thing NOT to do is say anything like: “Oh, I need some more time to sort this issue out.” Any request for an extension will be taken by the Inspector (and court...) as an admission that the original violation has merit, and you've agreed to it. If memory serves me, the back of the violation notice indicates this issue clearly enough – at least that's my recollection.... If not, it's in the code.

Posted on: 2/9 8:05
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#6
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2004/11/6 16:13
From Hamilton Park
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 4936
Offline
Quote:

Bamb00zle wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
I would speak with the NJDCA inspection office about this, sounds fishy, to my knowledge is only required as part of a major reno.


I wouldn't bother asking NJ DFS anything. I spoke to them a few years back about a “fishy” issue arising from “over-enthusiastic” interpretation of the fire code by JCFD officials. The response from NJ DFS was even more fishy than the JCFD's. It took me several trips to Municipal Court to educate the Fire folks and Court about the code they are responsible for enforcing, and have the violations and several thousand dollars in fines withdrawn. In retrospect, it seems to me they use the code to harass homeowners into undertaking expensive, unnecessary work in order to keep up a flow of income for their contracting businesses and buddies.


Sounds about right. I was suggesting speaking to the inspecting agency, the NJ Dept Consumer Affairs. +1 for your post of the relevant code.

I once took a floor plan to the firehouse and tried to get a JCFD inspector to tell me where to locate detectors. She told me there should be a monoxide detector in the kitchen in case the pilot light went out. I gently informed her that there would be no combustion and therefore no CO in that case. The rest of her info was on par. Far as I can tell these days they want smokes in just about every room and CO's outside the bedrooms.

Posted on: 2/8 23:47
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#5
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2015/4/28 21:47
From DT JC
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 177
Offline
Quote:

brewster wrote:
I would speak with the NJDCA inspection office about this, sounds fishy, to my knowledge is only required as part of a major reno.


I wouldn't bother asking NJ DFS anything. I spoke to them a few years back about a “fishy” issue arising from “over-enthusiastic” interpretation of the fire code by JCFD officials. The response from NJ DFS was even more fishy than the JCFD's. It took me several trips to Municipal Court to educate the Fire folks and Court about the code they are responsible for enforcing, and have the violations and several thousand dollars in fines withdrawn. In retrospect, it seems to me they use the code to harass homeowners into undertaking expensive, unnecessary work in order to keep up a flow of income for their contracting businesses and buddies.

Posted on: 2/8 21:36
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#4
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2015/4/28 21:47
From DT JC
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 177
Offline
Disclaimer – the following is my opinion – an informed opinion, but nevertheless an opinion. You need to do some work to determine your exact situation and requirements. My apologies in advance for the lengthy, detailed nature of this response. The devil is in the details. Unfortunately, there's no way around it.

Since the violation is cited under 5:70-3, it would appear all you need to do is repair something that isn't working as it should. 5:70-3 can't be used if something or other needs to be newly installed. (See below for link to NJAC 5:70-3) For example, if you have a battery operated alarm that isn't functional, then you'll need to make it functional. The additional 907.20.1 in the citation refers to a section of the 2006 International Fire Code – you can find that code via the DCA website, Division of Fire Safety section. Here's the link to that 2006 IFC code: http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/con ... 0Protection%20Systems.pdf

The language at 907.20.1 states:
907.20.1 Maintenance required.
Whenever or wherever any device, equipment, system, condition, arrangement, level of protection or any other feature is required for compliance with the provisions of this code, such device, equipment, system, condition, arrangement, level of protection or other feature shall thereafter be continuously maintained in accordance with applicable NFPA requirements or as directed by the fire code official.



BTW, if ever you need previous editions of code, you can find the old codes in the JC Public Library.

See the following Bulletin from the Division of Fire Service for an explanation of NJAC 5:70-3:

http://www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/dfs/a ... etins/bulletin_2010-4.pdf\

Here is N.J.A.C. 5:70-3.1 (d) – reproduced below with my added bold and italics.


N.J.A.C. 5:70-3.1 (2017)

§ 5:70-3.1 Code adopted, scope and applicability

   (a) Pursuant to the authority of P.L. 1983, c. 383, the Commissioner hereby adopts the model code of the International Code Council, known as the "2006 International Fire Code." This code is hereby adopted by reference as the State Fire Prevention Code for New Jersey, subject to the modifications set forth in N.J.A.C. 5:70-3.2.

(b) Copies of this code may be obtained from the Department of Community Affairs, Division of Fire Safety, 101 South Broad Street, Trenton, New Jersey 08625-0809 or from the International Code Council at 4051 West Flossmoor Road, Country Club Hills, Illinois 60478-5795.

(c) For purposes of this subchapter, the group definitions shall be those adopted under the Uniform Construction Code, N.J.A.C. 5:23.

(d) This subchapter establishes fire prevention requirements governing the safe maintenance of all buildings and premises subject to this code. It is not the intent of this subchapter to require the installation or upgrading of any system, equipment or building component not already required by N.J.A.C. 5:70-4 or by the Uniform Construction Code in effect at the time of construction of the building or at the time of installation of any existing system, equipment or building component. This subchapter shall not be cited as the basis for any retrofit requirement. A lack of compliance with N.J.A.C. 5:70-4 shall be cited by the fire official under N.J.A.C. 5:70-4. A suspected lack of compliance with the provisions of the Uniform Construction Code in effect at the time of construction or installation shall be referred to the local construction official for appropriate action.

(e) Violations of this subchapter shall be cited by giving the New Jersey Administrative Code citation for this subchapter, N.J.A.C. 5:70-3, followed by the section number of the 2006 International Fire Code, as amended by N.J.A.C. 5:70-3.2.

1. Violations of this subchapter shall be cited under the previously-adopted State Fire Prevention Code, the 1996 BOCA Fire Prevention Code, until February 1, 2009. Effective on that date, all violations shall be cited under the 2006 International Fire Code, as amended.


Trust all this helps - Good luck.

Posted on: 2/8 20:34
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#3
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2004/11/6 16:13
From Hamilton Park
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 4936
Offline
I would speak with the NJDCA inspection office about this, sounds fishy, to my knowledge is only required as part of a major reno. I've found great variation in their inspectors competence. After that you'll likely need to go to the office of the Code Official, not Fire. Whether you're grandfathered in or not is is a building code issue.

Posted on: 2/8 20:24
Print Top


Re: Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#2
Home away from home
Home away from home


Hide User information
Joined:
2005/7/13 11:03
From Western Slope
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 4345
Offline
Check with the public safety / fire dept. or your neighborhood association. I bet the office of emergency management from the county has some answers too.

Posted on: 2/8 17:14
Get on your bikes and ride !
Print Top


Hard-Wired Fire Detectors
#1
Just can't stay away
Just can't stay away


Hide User information
Joined:
2010/6/25 15:20
Group:
Registered Users
Posts: 91
Offline
My building, a 30-unit condo, recently underwent a 5-year state inspection, and my apartment was cited for a violation: "Repair and maintain A.C. operated fire detector system [N.J.A.C. 5:70-3,907.20.1]."

I currently have two working battery-operated smoke detectors in my unit, so I'm interpreting this to mean that I've been found in violation for not having a hard-wired fire detector in my unit.

Can this be right? I thought hard-wired fire detectors were required only for new construction. My building was constructed in the 1920s and converted to a condo in the 1980s.

Have tried to track down the actual language of the cited regulation, but it's surprisingly difficult to find specific New Jersey fire regulations online. If anyone has any insight, I'd be grateful.


Posted on: 2/8 17:04
Print Top








[Advanced Search]





Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!



LicenseInformation | AboutUs | PrivacyPolicy | Faq | Contact


JERSEY CITY LIST - News & Reviews - Jersey City, NJ - Copyright 2004 - 2017