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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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She writes about County taxes when the thread is about reevaluating the City tax base. The city reval will not change +/- the amount the city collects for the county in the form of county taxes.

She also mentions churches and schools not being taxed. Why would a school be taxed when it is supported by local taxes?

Posted on: 1/13 20:13
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Yvonne wrote:
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
"not taxed" != "abatement"

"Abatement is a reduction in the level of taxation faced by an individual or company. Examples of an abatement include a tax decrease, a reduction in penalties or a rebate. If an individual or business overpays its taxes or receives a tax bill that is too high, it can request an abatement from the tax authorities."
Abatement Definition | Investopedia
www.investopedia.com/terms/a/abatement.asp



Ralph, you are ignoring the fact that the county does not include tax abated property, or pilots in the formula when the county strikes the budget. If they did then the ratable base would be high and our tax bill would be much lower. I don't make this up, I do call the people who work on our budget in the county.



You're not very smart, yeah?

Posted on: 1/13 17:07
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Posted on: 1/13 16:21
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
"not taxed" != "abatement"

"Abatement is a reduction in the level of taxation faced by an individual or company. Examples of an abatement include a tax decrease, a reduction in penalties or a rebate. If an individual or business overpays its taxes or receives a tax bill that is too high, it can request an abatement from the tax authorities."
Abatement Definition | Investopedia
www.investopedia.com/terms/a/abatement.asp



Ralph, you are ignoring the fact that the county does not include tax abated property, or pilots in the formula when the county strikes the budget. If they did then the ratable base would be high and our tax bill would be much lower. I don't make this up, I do call the people who work on our budget in the county.


Posted on: 1/13 16:18
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"not taxed" != "abatement"

"Abatement is a reduction in the level of taxation faced by an individual or company. Examples of an abatement include a tax decrease, a reduction in penalties or a rebate. If an individual or business overpays its taxes or receives a tax bill that is too high, it can request an abatement from the tax authorities."
Abatement Definition | Investopedia
www.investopedia.com/terms/a/abatement.asp


Posted on: 1/13 16:08
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So that means the information that is printed in the county is false, Ralph? Look it up it is usally on page 4 or 6 where it lists other properties not taxed. It is separate from schools and public buildings, and churches. These are taxed abated properties that are not included in the ratable base. Besides I always call the county adminstrator every year and go over the numbers.

I should also include the state of NJ for lying about this too, Ralph.

Posted on: 1/13 15:41
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An innumerate person wrote:
The taxes are high because abatements are not included in the ratable base. Several billion dollars are not there so when the county strikes the budget, it is based on ratables, not abated buildings.


Not correct. If you excluded abatement revenue from the municipal budget, the property tax rate will be much, much higher.

Posted on: 1/13 15:16
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The taxes are high because abatements are not included in the ratable base. Several billion dollars are not there so when the county strikes the budget, it is based on ratables, not abated buildings.

Posted on: 1/13 15:01
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bodhipooh wrote:
Market conditions change. It just so happens that real estate market conditions in JC have improved tremendously over the past two years, with year-over-year valuation going up over 15%, while the city budget has grown very little, so the total tax rate needed to cover government costs has continued to drop.

To explain it a different way, the rate is determined by what total tax, the Levy, is determined to be. They don't just keep the same effective rate as the values go up and let the cash roll in.
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Mao wrote:
The high property tax issue for JC is the reason that we should enact a payroll tax.


So now I have to say this to you as well as Yvonne: Prove JC taxes are high!! They're average for North Jersey, and after the reval might actually be on the low side. You can find on this page the rate of every town in NJ http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/lpt/taxrate.shtml

Posted on: 1/13 12:13
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tern wrote:
I understand taxes are going to go up a lot on many downtown properties, but there is a big difference between 1.7% and 2% (or 2.2% as I believe Bodipooh speculated in some of his earlier missives).

The fact is we just don't know what the rate we will be, the only thing we can say is that if the appraisals are done correctly a $1 million house downtown should end up paying 4 times as much as a $250,000 place in the heights. Now if the heights house is actually valued at $500,000 (extended over the whole heights), it 'reduces' the downtown home's tax to only twice what the heights house is paying.

If you have been watching the market in the past two years it is not just downtown prices that are on the boil.

Robin.


I know most people have trouble with numbers, so I will try to explain: three years ago, when the reval was first cancelled, the estimated effective tax rate was about ~2.2%. That is the reason why that number was bandied about back then. Then the effective rate was closer to 2, and now we are looking at about 1.8%. That doesn't mean the numbers were inaccurate. It just means that for the market conditions in 2014, that 2.2% was correct, but it has since changed. A similar analogy would be to look at unemployment rates from years ago, and compare the number to present day and exclaim "well, those numbers were obviously wrong." Market conditions change. It just so happens that real estate market conditions in JC have improved tremendously over the past two years, with year-over-year valuation going up over 15%, while the city budget has grown very little, so the total tax rate needed to cover government costs has continued to drop.


Posted on: 1/13 11:26
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Azul_the_Cat wrote:
When we live in one of the states with the highest taxes in the nation, I doubt people want to cough up another 1% or even .5%, unless the increase is offset by a reduction somewhere else.

just my $0.02

Meh... No one likes paying taxes.

And again, since this is revenue neutral, in order for one person's tax bill to go up, another person's tax bill has to go down. This is about fairness, not about socking people for higher taxes.

Posted on: 1/13 10:01
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Azul_the_Cat wrote:
It still amazes me that people thought the taxes they were paying on some of these DTJC properties was correct....

I don' think most people have any clue how real estate taxes are calculated. They just look at the sheet, see "ok that's the tax," and hate paying no matter what the amount.

Posted on: 1/13 9:59
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hero69 wrote:
i was looking at properties for sale and i noticed that prices in the heights seemed to have jumped significantly. i almost fell backwards when i saw the prices! if owners are realizing such prices, that should have an mitigate the impact of the reval on downtown


I agree - the Heights is not cheap.

Posted on: 1/13 9:29
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When we live in one of the states with the highest taxes in the nation, I doubt people want to cough up another 1% or even .5%, unless the increase is offset by a reduction somewhere else.

just my $0.02

Posted on: 1/13 9:26
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The high property tax issue for JC is the reason that we should enact a payroll tax. Schundler tried to but Whitman, in order to elect McGreevy, had the law changed so that only Newark is a city of the "First Class" with ability to tax. A 1% payroll tax would not hurt Jersey City's comptetiveness with NYC is between 3.5 and 4% and would be the same as Newark's. Moreover, there is a 50% credit, I believe, so that a 1% payroll deduction ends up being only a .5% cost to the taxpayer. I have not heard anyone mention this tax in years.

Posted on: 1/13 8:51
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It still amazes me that people thought the taxes they were paying on some of these DTJC properties was correct. When I bought downtown I knew something was wrong with the taxes when I saw how low they were. A simple call to the assessors office quickly confirmed my thoughts. After that I started to squirrel away money for the inevitable increase in taxes. Since then we moved up to the Lincoln Park area, but I still know my taxes are too low for the house.

Posted on: 1/13 8:43
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tern wrote:
I understand taxes are going to go up a lot on many downtown properties, but there is a big difference between 1.7% and 2% (or 2.2% as I believe Bodipooh speculated in some of his earlier missives).

The fact is we just don't know what the rate we will be, the only thing we can say is that if the appraisals are done correctly a $1 million house downtown should end up paying 4 times as much as a $250,000 place in the heights. Now if the heights house is actually valued at $500,000 (extended over the whole heights), it 'reduces' the downtown home's tax to only twice what the heights house is paying.

If you have been watching the market in the past two years it is not just downtown prices that are on the boil.

Robin.


Keep dreaming...the 2% or 1.79% already factors in estimated city-wide increases in valuation. The properties paying < %1 today will still end up paying close to double.


Posted on: 1/13 7:25
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I understand taxes are going to go up a lot on many downtown properties, but there is a big difference between 1.7% and 2% (or 2.2% as I believe Bodipooh speculated in some of his earlier missives).

The fact is we just don't know what the rate we will be, the only thing we can say is that if the appraisals are done correctly a $1 million house downtown should end up paying 4 times as much as a $250,000 place in the heights. Now if the heights house is actually valued at $500,000 (extended over the whole heights), it 'reduces' the downtown home's tax to only twice what the heights house is paying.

If you have been watching the market in the past two years it is not just downtown prices that are on the boil.

Robin.

Posted on: 1/13 0:50

Edited by tern on 2017/1/13 1:11:06
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tern wrote:
The way house prices have appreciated over the past couple of years will naturally lead to a fall in the tax rate, otherwise they are going to be collecting double the taxes they were previously.

Bodipooh bandies this 2% figure about, but it is based on nothing more than his own speculation.

1 or 2 family houses in the heights are now worth $400,000+, every one or two family in Journal Square is now worth $600,000+, if they all pay 2% the city would end up with too much money!

Robin.


If you assume the County calculates the assessed to true value ratio correctly (see column 2 in link), then Bodipooh's math is accurate. The difference between % increase in taxes and % house price appreciation will have an impact - but not as much as you might think. A huge number of downtown properties will see their taxes double - and ~1.8% of market value isn't an unreasonable estimate.


http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxat ... df/lptval/2016/Hudson.pdf

Posted on: 1/12 22:13
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dtjcview wrote:
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jcneighbor wrote:
...

There are a few pockets in DT that are "just enough" higher that they didn't have standing water during Sandy. I think this links properly:

https://project.wnyc.org/100yr-zones-p ... ml#15.24/40.7225/-74.0380


For Sandy - the map may be correct wrt basement flooding. But street-level flooding has been nowhere near as extensive anytime in the past decade - at least not west of Marin and north of Columbus. In this area, Sandy would have looked more like 3-4m on this link: http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/new-york.shtml


The sewers were the conduit for much of the flooding allowing the water to bypass high spots.


I agreed with your own post back in 2013. Think some of the newspapers published the 100-year flood elevation map as the "areas flooded by Sandy" - creating this myth on the extent of flooding. It's simply wrong.

http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=328138

Posted on: 1/12 21:03
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dtjcview wrote:
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jcneighbor wrote:
...

There are a few pockets in DT that are "just enough" higher that they didn't have standing water during Sandy. I think this links properly:

https://project.wnyc.org/100yr-zones-p ... ml#15.24/40.7225/-74.0380


For Sandy - the map may be correct wrt basement flooding. But street-level flooding has been nowhere near as extensive anytime in the past decade - at least not west of Marin and north of Columbus. In this area, Sandy would have looked more like 3-4m on this link: http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/new-york.shtml


The sewers were the conduit for much of the flooding allowing the water to bypass high spots.

Posted on: 1/12 20:51
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jcneighbor wrote:
...

There are a few pockets in DT that are "just enough" higher that they didn't have standing water during Sandy. I think this links properly:

https://project.wnyc.org/100yr-zones-p ... ml#15.24/40.7225/-74.0380


For Sandy - the map may be correct wrt basement flooding. But street-level flooding has been nowhere near as extensive anytime in the past decade - at least not west of Marin and north of Columbus. In this area, Sandy would have looked more like 3-4m on this link: http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/new-york.shtml

Posted on: 1/12 17:12
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dtjcview wrote:
They have been constantly ripping up the roads west to east over the past couple of years installing huge sewer lines. Last I checked - they were ripping up 6th street (again?). PSE&G have also been through most of downtown "hardening" their gas lines in the past few months.

Time will tell if it's enough - but can't claim they've done nothing since Sandy.


They're not doing my street. Someone at the MUA claimed it was fine in their survey, even though when the MUA ran a cam down it 18 years ago they reported a 18" diameter brick sewer filled with longitudinal and offset cracks.


I even remember wood sewer pipes, many of them running under people's back yards (instead of down the street). They were built like barrels with staves and hoops, coated with creosote on the inside. When they collapsed it was a disaster and a very-expensive excavation to connect to the new line in the street.

There are a few pockets in DT that are "just enough" higher that they didn't have standing water during Sandy. I think this links properly:

https://project.wnyc.org/100yr-zones-p ... ml#15.24/40.7225/-74.0380

Posted on: 1/12 16:46
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The way house prices have appreciated over the past couple of years will naturally lead to a fall in the tax rate, otherwise they are going to be collecting double the taxes they were previously.

Bodipooh bandies this 2% figure about, but it is based on nothing more than his own speculation.

1 or 2 family houses in the heights are now worth $400,000+, every one or two family in Journal Square is now worth $600,000+, if they all pay 2% the city would end up with too much money!

Robin.

Posted on: 1/12 16:45
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stateaidguy wrote:
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stateaidguy wrote:
Jersey City's taxes will definitely be below 2% post-reval, but this has nothing to do with the reval so much as it does the increase in Jersey City's Equalized Valuation.

JC's EV is now $24 billion and will be even higher after the reval is completed.

JC's all-in tax levy is now $448.7 million. That rate will increase too, but not in proportion to the increase in the Equalized Valuation.

$448.7 million / $24 billion = 1.87%.

The tax rate will fall farther once the new EV is computed.





SAG, Thank you! I'm so tried of the complete and utter BS from the fearmongers and the ignorant. I saw a news report the other day saying it's a double edged sword because the reval will hurt people, but will also generate more money for the city.


Well, an ignorant reporter is just that... ignorant.

BUT, the values provided by the state are very different from what you present in your post.

The State of NJ puts the total JC EV at $21,643,490,206 (21.6 B) for 2015, and 25,679,882,705 (25.7 B) for 2016. The effective tax rate (as calculated by the state) is 2.216% for 2015.

Source for the above:
EV 2016: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxat ... df/lptval/2016/Hudson.pdf
EV 2015: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxat ... df/lptval/2015/hudson.pdf
Effective Tax Rate 2015: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtrhud15.pdf

How did you arrive at the total tax levy of $448.7 million? Do you have a source for that figure? Also, are you sure you are not using the valuation from valuation from 2016 and applying the effective tax rate for 2015? I ask because the figures are wildly different than what is on the State of NJ website. Thanks!


I admit I misremembered JC's Equalized Valuation, but that mistake doesn't change my argument that JC's all-in tax rate will be below 2%.

The FY2017 EV is $25,697,067,795. (it's a $4 billion increase from the year before, so I guess I got confused and wrote "$24 billion")

The FY2016 tax levy was $448,717,388. (source is the Property Tax Tables)

If you do the division, the estimated all-in tax rate 1.7%.

Oops. Sorry for the distraction with the wrong EV.


I bet 1.7 percent (or less) is the new tax rate post reval. That fearmonger SOS has been calming 2.5 percent plus budget cuts. Please bookmark this thread to see who's right.

Posted on: 1/12 16:14
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bodhipooh wrote:
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JCGuys wrote:
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stateaidguy wrote:
Jersey City's taxes will definitely be below 2% post-reval, but this has nothing to do with the reval so much as it does the increase in Jersey City's Equalized Valuation.

JC's EV is now $24 billion and will be even higher after the reval is completed.

JC's all-in tax levy is now $448.7 million. That rate will increase too, but not in proportion to the increase in the Equalized Valuation.

$448.7 million / $24 billion = 1.87%.

The tax rate will fall farther once the new EV is computed.





SAG, Thank you! I'm so tried of the complete and utter BS from the fearmongers and the ignorant. I saw a news report the other day saying it's a double edged sword because the reval will hurt people, but will also generate more money for the city.


Well, an ignorant reporter is just that... ignorant.

BUT, the values provided by the state are very different from what you present in your post.

The State of NJ puts the total JC EV at $21,643,490,206 (21.6 B) for 2015, and 25,679,882,705 (25.7 B) for 2016. The effective tax rate (as calculated by the state) is 2.216% for 2015.

Source for the above:
EV 2016: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxat ... df/lptval/2016/Hudson.pdf
EV 2015: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxat ... df/lptval/2015/hudson.pdf
Effective Tax Rate 2015: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtrhud15.pdf

How did you arrive at the total tax levy of $448.7 million? Do you have a source for that figure? Also, are you sure you are not using the valuation from valuation from 2016 and applying the effective tax rate for 2015? I ask because the figures are wildly different than what is on the State of NJ website. Thanks!


I admit I misremembered JC's Equalized Valuation, but that mistake doesn't change my argument that JC's all-in tax rate will be below 2%.

The FY2017 EV is $25,697,067,795. (it's a $4 billion increase from the year before, so I guess I got confused and wrote "$24 billion")

The FY2016 tax levy was $448,717,388. (source is the Property Tax Tables)

If you do the division, the estimated all-in tax rate 1.7%.

Oops. Sorry for the distraction with the wrong EV.

Posted on: 1/12 14:21
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brewster wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
How did you arrive at the total tax levy of $448.7 million?

See page 2 http://www.cityofjerseycity.com/uploa ... tion/CY2016_USF_Intro.pdf

Another tidbit from that doc, the properties that Yvonne is always howling about getting a free ride paid $129m in 2015 PILOTS, vs $212m they would have paid in tax. But compared to the legacy properties paying 50% or less of their market based tax, these developments at 60% are actually paying a higher rate than Yvonne did for her fabulous brownstone on VVP!


Thank you for the link! I was trying to locate this info and was coming up empty.

For 2015, the effective rate was 2.07%, but for 2016 it drops quite a bit, down to 1.79%.

I came up with those numbers by using the EV totals for 2015 and 2016 from the state links I posted and dividing the tax levies for 2015 and 2016 from the user friendly budget for which Brewster provided a link (again, thanks!)

I guess we will need to wait and see what is the total EV calculated for JC after the reval. Even if the rate stays at 1.8%, you would see lots of homeowners with massive increases (those currently paying effective rates of under 1%) but that rate is definitely magnitudes better than the bandied about 2.2% rate that most people seem to assume will be the final one.


I wonder what the rate will be after the state cuts some (or all...?) of the $420 million or so it currently pays JC schools each year? 10% of that amount is roughly 20% of taxes raised – PILOTS are out of the mix. Recall the state has a huge budget hole to fix - $140 billion (and counting) unfunded pension liabilities. A 20% increase would bring that 1.8% up to about 2.15%

I suppose we 'll find out when a future legislature and governor agree on details. But it's clear a reduction is schools funding for JC is the long game. Won't happen till after the reval and JC property taxes are more equitably distributed, which conveniently is after the next election.

http://observer.com/2017/01/nj-democr ... m=New%20Jersey%20Politics

Posted on: 1/12 8:14
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How did you arrive at the total tax levy of $448.7 million?

See page 2 http://www.cityofjerseycity.com/uploa ... tion/CY2016_USF_Intro.pdf

Another tidbit from that doc, the properties that Yvonne is always howling about getting a free ride paid $129m in 2015 PILOTS, vs $212m they would have paid in tax. But compared to the legacy properties paying 50% or less of their market based tax, these developments at 60% are actually paying a higher rate than Yvonne did for her fabulous brownstone on VVP!


Thank you for the link! I was trying to locate this info and was coming up empty.

For 2015, the effective rate was 2.07%, but for 2016 it drops quite a bit, down to 1.79%.

I came up with those numbers by using the EV totals for 2015 and 2016 from the state links I posted and dividing the tax levies for 2015 and 2016 from the user friendly budget for which Brewster provided a link (again, thanks!)

I guess we will need to wait and see what is the total EV calculated for JC after the reval. Even if the rate stays at 1.8%, you would see lots of homeowners with massive increases (those currently paying effective rates of under 1%) but that rate is definitely magnitudes better than the bandied about 2.2% rate that most people seem to assume will be the final one.

Posted on: 1/12 0:02
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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brewster wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
How did you arrive at the total tax levy of $448.7 million?

See page 2 http://www.cityofjerseycity.com/uploa ... tion/CY2016_USF_Intro.pdf

Another tidbit from that doc, the properties that Yvonne is always howling about getting a free ride paid $129m in 2015 PILOTS, vs $212m they would have paid in tax. But compared to the legacy properties paying 50% or less of their market based tax, these developments at 60% are actually paying a higher rate than Yvonne did for her fabulous brownstone on VVP!


In addition to her lies about the reval, multi-millionaire Yvonne doesn't feel she should have to pay for parking and spends all her waking hours forcing parking lots on Downtown where they are not wanted or needed.

Posted on: 1/11 23:44
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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bodhipooh wrote:
How did you arrive at the total tax levy of $448.7 million?

See page 2 http://www.cityofjerseycity.com/uploa ... tion/CY2016_USF_Intro.pdf

Another tidbit from that doc, the properties that Yvonne is always howling about getting a free ride paid $129m in 2015 PILOTS, vs $212m they would have paid in tax. But compared to the legacy properties paying 50% or less of their market based tax, these developments at 60% are actually paying a higher rate than Yvonne did for her fabulous brownstone on VVP!

Posted on: 1/11 23:22

Edited by brewster on 2017/1/11 23:39:52
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