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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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hero69 wrote:
slightly different subject, i was talking to someone about charter schools and i indicated that charter schools were revolutionizing the educational system. he said it was smoke and mirrors.

apparently, unbeknownst to me, charter schools can dump the underperforming kids back into the public school system which elevates the numbers for charter schools but depresses those for public schools


Right, same could be said for private schools. And that is a huge part of the appeal. The crappy students ruin the experience for everyone else. Simply surrounding your kids with other smart, ambitious kids really is half the battle for education. You can also witness in schools like that the consequences for being a slacker/pothead/general loser or even straight up criminal/thug. In regular public schools many of these are the cool kids. In private schools or charter schools they get shown the door. That sends the right signal to everyone else.

Posted on: 2016/1/4 1:22
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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slightly different subject, i was talking to someone about charter schools and i indicated that charter schools were revolutionizing the educational system. he said it was smoke and mirrors.

apparently, unbeknownst to me, charter schools can dump the underperforming kids back into the public school system which elevates the numbers for charter schools but depresses those for public schools

Posted on: 2016/1/3 21:26
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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this sure spun out of control.

its started out asking about the mcnair quota which I believe is taking the highest PSAT test score within each of the four ethnic groups. applying 8th graders take the test at mcnair in october. unlike many of the other high school applications, mcnair only allows an applicant to pick ONE ethnic group, not two or more and the choices do not really reflect ethnic origin.

so, I guess the concern is an applicant could test lower and be accepted than an applicant from another ethnic group that scored higher and was rejected.

a) there a variety of high school options in Jersey City, be it, public, magnet, or charter.

b) the choices and options, can be seen as a positive rather than being limited to one town high school.

c) if one's child is only approaching school age - there is plenty of time to figure things out - you may find that you need or want to move for other reasons and never get to high school decision making here.

d) public schools all focus first and foremost on academic performance most everywhere in NJ and the country.



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AlexC wrote:
Here are the numbers:

Student Diversity 2013-2014
Dr. Ronald E. McNair Academic High School
United States

Hispanic 21.0%
Asian 39.0%
African American 16.0%
White 19.0%
Native American 1.0%

https://k12.niche.com/dr-ronald-e-mcna ... gh-school-jersey-city-nj/

Posted on: 2016/1/2 18:48
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Over the summer there were a bunch of articles about tech companies now looking for liberal arts majors to fill positions. Here's one.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeand ... liberal-arts-degree-tech/

I've always felt that unless you are pursuing a career in an area that requires specific technical knowledge, what you specifically studied in college was less important than learning how to think and write.



Let's not get confused, though. A lot of tech companies are in need of non-tech people, but that is because they need to improve or learn how to interact with their customers and target audiences. They are not hiring non-tech people to do tech work.

One of the biggest problems of really geeky, tech-oriented people (think of the stereotypical uber-geek coder) is that relating to "normal" people is not easy. How could it be? What drives them is often completely different, and their way of looking at things is very different as well. But, then again, this is no different than a sports team hiring non-sports people. You need all types of people to do different jobs. The Giants have to have PR people, marketing people, sales people, cleaning crews, etc. They are not hiring college athletes and former pros for those jobs. They hire the right person for the right job.

Even the article you posted indicates that there is a different of over 50% in salaries for people of the same age with degrees in tech vs non-tech. Specifically, this is what the article said:

"A 2014 report by the Association of American Colleges & Universities found that engineering majors earned an average of about $92,000 a year in their late 30s, compared with about $61,000 for graduates with degrees in the humanities or social sciences."

A person that goes to college and really studies, and puts in the effort, is hopefully learning to think, and become a more well rounded person, but there is no denying that certain careers and knowledge are more profitable over the long term.

As for the side argument about languages and fluency, etc. I have to agree with devilsadvocate in that many people that I know who hold degrees in certain languages are definitely not as fluent as they like to think. It's just not realistic to expect that level of expertise (in terms of language skills, knowledge, regionalities, etc.) based on 4 years of college doing more than just learning that language.

As for JadedJC's experience about growing up Chinese, and the issue of fluency (particularly in written form) of Mandarin Chinese, I have several friends of similar backgrounds (immigrant parents, grew up in Chinese household, amid Chinese traditions) and they relay the same story: they understand enough to have arguments with their parents (what's with that!?) but none of them can write the language, and they don't feel comfortable speaking it because they know their mastery of the spoken form is limited.

Posted on: 2016/1/2 17:20
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Over the summer there were a bunch of articles about tech companies now looking for liberal arts majors to fill positions. Here's one.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeand ... liberal-arts-degree-tech/

I've always felt that unless you are pursuing a career in an area that requires specific technical knowledge, what you specifically studied in college was less important than learning how to think and write.


Posted on: 2016/1/2 16:49
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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devilsadvocate wrote:

Have you spoken to many "X studies majors"? Their linguistic skills in the language they're learning is nothing like full fluency.


Took Russian for three years. I was never a serious Russian student, the language just fascinated me. By the time I got to the third year, most of my classmates were majors. They were hardcore, and if you're a major you have to go live and study there for at least a year. Total immersion. So, yes, I would say they were pretty fluent. Admittedly, they were studying it at the right time in history. The top students were courted back in the late '80s/early 90s by the CIA, State Department, banks, energy companies media organizations, NGOs and think tanks.


I knew people like this that studied my language. They were uniformly awful with only a few exceptions, most of which had family/a background from that language.

Posted on: 2016/1/2 3:29
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Timely and topical article:

From NYC to Harvard: the war on Asian success


http://nypost.com/2015/12/29/from-nyc ... the-war-on-asian-success/

Posted on: 2016/1/2 2:36
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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devilsadvocate wrote:

Have you spoken to many "X studies majors"? Their linguistic skills in the language they're learning is nothing like full fluency.


Took Russian for three years. I was never a serious Russian student, the language just fascinated me. By the time I got to the third year, most of my classmates were majors. They were hardcore, and if you're a major you have to go live and study there for at least a year. Total immersion. So, yes, I would say they were pretty fluent. Admittedly, they were studying it at the right time in history. The top students were courted back in the late '80s/early 90s by the CIA, State Department, banks, energy companies media organizations, NGOs and think tanks.

Posted on: 2016/1/2 2:22
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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devilsadvocate wrote:

By the way, I speak a "desired foreign language" and am not a "X languages" major. You end up with the language if you're an immigrant or a children of immigrants.


I can only speak for myself and those I know as children of Chinese immigrants. Most of us speak well enough to order at a restaurant or argue with our parents, not well enough to function at a high professional level. The vast majority of us can barely even write our names in Chinese. All the cramming and studying Chinese parents insist on, sadly, doesn't include the language. My own parents conceded that was a mistake when they realized how big a demand there was for fully fluent English-Chinese bilingual workers.


Have you spoken to many "X studies majors"? Their linguistic skills in the language they're learning is nothing like full fluency.

Anyway, sufficed to say that I know my non-english language well enough to function at a professional level. Granted, my grammar isn't always perfect and I tend to leverage voice recognition when writing (I type slowly in that language), but it works and I spent several years living in the home country working for western companies before settling down here. I haven't taken a single class in that language, AND I majored in useful subjects in college and grad schools.

Posted on: 2016/1/2 1:57
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[quote]
devilsadvocate wrote:

A large part of that though is that attendees tend to come from far wealthier families. It isn't surprising that the GW Bushes of the world aren't graduating from Harvard and Yale with student debt.

And if you start to look at graduate level education, which tends to be less concentrated based on socioeconomic status (for a variety of reasons), you'll see a ton of people graduating from the likes of Harvard and Yale law with massive sums of debt.

But sure, some go to ivy league schools and for whatever reason have less debt. Their ability to find employment still relates to their major, at least to some degree. Yes, some can still get banking internships or go into management consulting. But that takes a methodical dedication to preparing for those that many liberal arts majors don't really pursue.


Quote:
You know, rather than speaking in sweeping generalizations and just plain making stuff up, I invite you to actually look at the financial aid stats for schools like Harvard. They're easy to find and the schools are pretty transparent on the economic backgrounds of their students and how need-based aid is determined. Students from families like the Bushes are in the minority.


I'm not making things up because I knew people from those schools that have considerable debt, though mostly from grad schools. Granted, a) this is anecdotal, and b) most of these graduated some time ago.

Quote:
Some 60% of students come from families making less than $200k, and even those making more than $200K aren't excluded from receiving aid (if, for example, they have more than one child in college). The other Ivy League schools have aid models pretty similar to Harvard's.


Lets flip that a bit - some 40% come from families making at least $200k. That is a HUGE amount that are flat out from wealthy families. That will obviously impact average student debt load. Though yes, I agree that their financial aid is extremely generous.

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For whatever reason, you dislike the liberal arts, which is fine. To each his own.


I dislike the liberal arts because they are, in my view, poor preparation for a career for most people that enter them. Life is short and time to pursue educational pursuits are limited. For most, you attend college to prepare for your career. A small minority want to live the subject matter, enter academia themselves, and make a career of the liberal arts. Those are the people who justifiably should be majoring in it. Everyone else though?

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But your last sentence makes no sense whatsoever - not even from a sentence-construction point of view - and is backed by nothing other than your own biased assumptions. You clearly don't have a STEM background.


Actually, I do. Sorry to disappoint.

Quote:
People from those backgrounds live by facts and figures and they use facts and numbers to persuade people to their point of view. You clearly don't. In the JC List vernacular: You're simply talking out of your ass.


I wouldn't go that far, but for some reason you're getting pissed off over this discussion which is pretty freakin' innocuous in my book. If you got a cheap liberal arts education at H and it worked for your career then great. I'm just saying that if a student is attending now and considering what to do, liberal arts wouldn't be the best approach if the goal is to maximize career prospects. I don't think you even disagree with this.

Posted on: 2016/1/2 1:49
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devilsadvocate wrote:

By the way, I speak a "desired foreign language" and am not a "X languages" major. You end up with the language if you're an immigrant or a children of immigrants.


I can only speak for myself and those I know as children of Chinese immigrants. Most of us speak well enough to order at a restaurant or argue with our parents, not well enough to function at a high professional level. The vast majority of us can barely even write our names in Chinese. All the cramming and studying Chinese parents insist on, sadly, doesn't include the language. My own parents conceded that was a mistake when they realized how big a demand there was for fully fluent English-Chinese bilingual workers.

Posted on: 2016/1/2 1:49
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devilsadvocate wrote:

Sure, but with finance they had to pick up real quantitative skills somewhere. That doesn't just happen.



Do you understand how big financial institutions like Goldman Sachs work? They assemble teams with all sorts of backgrounds or talents. In the early and mid-1990s, the banks were all trying to court Russian and Chinese majors because they were in a hurry to do deals in those countries. That's where many of my classmates ended up. They needed people who spoke the language and understood the culture. A lot of the big-picture macro strategists don't come from technical backgrounds. They hire people with more technical skills to write proprietary trading programs or do the quantitative analysis.


You understand that they still desire technical skills for pretty much all analyst positions, right? In fact, interviews *will* have technical questions. Like I said before, you can still learn what you need for the interviews, but it will be much harder than if you came from a background that included working with math.

By the way, I speak a "desired foreign language" and am not a "X languages" major. You end up with the language if you're an immigrant or a children of immigrants.

Posted on: 2016/1/2 1:34
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devilsadvocate wrote:

Sure, but with finance they had to pick up real quantitative skills somewhere. That doesn't just happen.



Do you understand how big financial institutions like Goldman Sachs work? They assemble teams with all sorts of backgrounds or talents. In the early and mid-1990s, the banks were all trying to court Russian and Chinese majors because they were in a hurry to do deals in those countries. That's where many of my classmates ended up. They needed people who spoke the language and understood the culture. A lot of the big-picture macro strategists don't come from technical backgrounds. They hire people with more technical skills to write proprietary trading programs or do the quantitative analysis.

Posted on: 2016/1/2 0:58
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A large part of that though is that attendees tend to come from far wealthier families. It isn't surprising that the GW Bushes of the world aren't graduating from Harvard and Yale with student debt.

And if you start to look at graduate level education, which tends to be less concentrated based on socioeconomic status (for a variety of reasons), you'll see a ton of people graduating from the likes of Harvard and Yale law with massive sums of debt.

But sure, some go to ivy league schools and for whatever reason have less debt. Their ability to find employment still relates to their major, at least to some degree. Yes, some can still get banking internships or go into management consulting. But that takes a methodical dedication to preparing for those that many liberal arts majors don't really pursue.


You know, rather than speaking in sweeping generalizations and just plain making stuff up, I invite you to actually look at the financial aid stats for schools like Harvard. They're easy to find and the schools are pretty transparent on the economic backgrounds of their students and how need-based aid is determined. Students from families like the Bushes are in the minority. Some 60% of students come from families making less than $200k, and even those making more than $200K aren't excluded from receiving aid (if, for example, they have more than one child in college). The other Ivy League schools have aid models pretty similar to Harvard's.

For whatever reason, you dislike the liberal arts, which is fine. To each his own. But your last sentence makes no sense whatsoever - not even from a sentence-construction point of view - and is backed by nothing other than your own biased assumptions. You clearly don't have a STEM background. People from those backgrounds live by facts and figures and they use facts and numbers to persuade people to their point of view. You clearly don't. In the JC List vernacular: You're simply talking out of your ass.

Posted on: 2016/1/1 23:58

Edited by JadedJC on 2016/1/2 0:16:22
Edited by JadedJC on 2016/1/2 0:18:08
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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VanVorster wrote:
The bigots on here don't observe being polite or constructive but because of their anonymity and call people trash, inferior, crappy to imply their own supposed innate superiority. No one is expressly using the N word but it's there beneath the surface as well as the white superiority complex. And once a person of color calls them out on it, they get all bent out of shape and call the person of color a racist. That is called projection folks.

http://www.racefiles.com/2013/07/03/w ... bout-being-called-racist/



LMAO. I occasionally click your links, which as all biased rags/blogs that confirm your simplistic thinking. This one is written by someone who describes themselves as a "Lifelong political activist, community organizer, organization builder, and trouble-maker." Anyway, this particularly one answers the puzzling question of "why are white people so touchy about being called out for racism?"

I think it might have to do with the fact that if someone "gets called out for racism" people like you also work to get them fired and generally ostracized from society. See this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic ... ter-activists-online.html

But no, the authors of articles like this one will ignore the obvious and instead grasp for straws that continue to advance their agendas.


Posted on: 2016/1/1 22:59
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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JadedJC wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

JadedJC wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:

Here's the disconnect here: she is saying "statistically, it is likely to result in X", to which you are countering with a personal anecdote that you didn't fit X. You may be a counter-example, but you don't disprove the statement, which is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of what you wrote implies that you wouldn't have been better off if you didn't major in something inherently marketable, rather than needing to rely on being a "quick learner" (which, in this market is a massively tough sell - I'm not going to hire even an entry level developer that doesn't have a CS degree because why would I? Nor will I hire a project manager with a "fluffy" degree even from an ivy when I could have many with an MIS, CS or at worst, straight up business management degree also from good schools).


What I'm saying is the average Ivy grad leaves school with a much lower student debt load than those who went to a non-Ivy private school, like NYU or Northwestern, and often lower than those who attended a state university. In 2012, the average debt owed by a Princeton grad was just over $5,000. At Yale, it was around $9,000. You owe more buying your first car. And its even possible to pay that off waiting tables. I have no idea what the job market is nowadays for those graduating with liberal arts degrees. I agree it's much tougher than it was 25-30 years ago and if I had a kid, I probably wouldn't want him/her to pursue a liberal arts degree. Your argument is narrowly based on hiring a software developer. Of course, you should only hire someone with a CS degree (fwiw, my ex has a CS degree and lost three jobs over a relatively short period because someone in or from India did the work for a lot less money). What I'm talking about are fields that DON'T require specific STEM skills. They do exist. For example, media, marketing and even finance. I know lots of people in finance - currency and bond traders and asset managers - who majored in history, philosophy and foreign languages.

I don't dispute your contention that I would have been better off pursuing something, as you put it, "inherently marketable." I certainly would be making more money, if that's what you mean by better off. But I know myself well enough to know I would have been bored and miserable in a technical field. Life is full of trade-offs that way. I'm in a job I mostly love and perform well (when I'm not on JC List). I'll never be wealthy, but I do all right: I have no debt besides the mortgage and I have enough to pay my bills, save decently for retirement and still have a little leftover to splurge on shoes or a vacation once in awhile. Btw, why are you so hostile to everyone posting on this thread? I mean this as a sincere question.


You are cherry picking the student debt data. Princeton is considered a model school in terms of how to best serve its student body with its "no loan policy". The average undergrad student load debt exceeds 27K. That's AVERAGE. For every Princeton grad with a debt of 5K, there's (statistically) one or more students with much more in debt.

Pebbles contention that data is not being provided is turning a blind to established facts: as a country, we are facing a student load debt crisis. Too many grads are coming out of school with too much debt. Add to these totals and numbers the people who continue their studies in fields like law, medicine, etc. Tons more money. The average law school loads debt is around 100K. For many schools, it is much more.


I was refuting your original contention of Ivy grads leaving school with "a pile of debt" they will regret. I'm saying the Ivies have fat endowments and a significantly high percentage graduate without any debt. Those who do typically have a total debt load well below the national average.


A large part of that though is that attendees tend to come from far wealthier families. It isn't surprising that the GW Bushes of the world aren't graduating from Harvard and Yale with student debt.

And if you start to look at graduate level education, which tends to be less concentrated based on socioeconomic status (for a variety of reasons), you'll see a ton of people graduating from the likes of Harvard and Yale law with massive sums of debt.

But sure, some go to ivy league schools and for whatever reason have less debt. Their ability to find employment still relates to their major, at least to some degree. Yes, some can still get banking internships or go into management consulting. But that takes a methodical dedication to preparing for those that many liberal arts majors don't really pursue.

Posted on: 2016/1/1 20:28
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devilsadvocate wrote:

Here's the disconnect here: she is saying "statistically, it is likely to result in X", to which you are countering with a personal anecdote that you didn't fit X. You may be a counter-example, but you don't disprove the statement, which is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of what you wrote implies that you wouldn't have been better off if you didn't major in something inherently marketable, rather than needing to rely on being a "quick learner" (which, in this market is a massively tough sell - I'm not going to hire even an entry level developer that doesn't have a CS degree because why would I? Nor will I hire a project manager with a "fluffy" degree even from an ivy when I could have many with an MIS, CS or at worst, straight up business management degree also from good schools).


What I'm saying is the average Ivy grad leaves school with a much lower student debt load than those who went to a non-Ivy private school, like NYU or Northwestern, and often lower than those who attended a state university. In 2012, the average debt owed by a Princeton grad was just over $5,000. At Yale, it was around $9,000. You owe more buying your first car. And its even possible to pay that off waiting tables. I have no idea what the job market is nowadays for those graduating with liberal arts degrees. I agree it's much tougher than it was 25-30 years ago and if I had a kid, I probably wouldn't want him/her to pursue a liberal arts degree. Your argument is narrowly based on hiring a software developer. Of course, you should only hire someone with a CS degree (fwiw, my ex has a CS degree and lost three jobs over a relatively short period because someone in or from India did the work for a lot less money). What I'm talking about are fields that DON'T require specific STEM skills. They do exist. For example, media, marketing and even finance. I know lots of people in finance - currency and bond traders and asset managers - who majored in history, philosophy and foreign languages.


Sure, but with finance they had to pick up real quantitative skills somewhere. That doesn't just happen.

As for CS and layoffs - yes, they are pretty common, but people find new jobs quickly as well. Often the new jobs pay more than the old ones.

Quote:
I don't dispute your contention that I would have been better off pursuing something, as you put it, "inherently marketable." I certainly would be making more money, if that's what you mean by better off. But I know myself well enough to know I would have been bored and miserable in a technical field. Life is full of trade-offs that way.


I don't disagree with any of that. However, even in a non-technical field there are more relevant majors. Business schools are a perfect example of this. Point is, I'm pretty sure you're not doing "art" or "english lit" for a living.

Quote:
I'm in a job I mostly love and perform well (when I'm not on JC List). I'll never be wealthy, but I do all right: I have no debt besides the mortgage and I have enough to pay my bills, save decently for retirement and still have a little leftover to splurge on shoes or a vacation once in awhile. Btw, why are you so hostile to everyone posting on this thread? I mean this as a sincere question.


I don't think I was hostile to you. I was hostile to VV - because she earned that many times over during my prior interactions with her. Pebble also pulls my strings. But I don't think I said a single mean or even rude thing to you. Can you point out where I displayed any hostility?

Posted on: 2016/1/1 20:22
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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the George Bushes of the world


Legacies...the biggest AA group around....but not at McNair, by the way. No family preference.


Legacies actually receive a smaller bump than AA.

Posted on: 2016/1/1 20:16
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devilsadvocate wrote:


Now you're just equivocating. "Oh, as long as they're REASONABLY smart it is GOOD ENOUGH." No, there are admissions criteria and you're supposed to choose people that *best* fit them.


That's what you say, not what people looking to create the next class of scholars says. You treat it like it's some game where you get a reward for a high score. Anyone admitted to these schools has achieved and accomplished both with numbers and in other areas.


Sure, admins have other priorities based on various agendas, politics, etc. I'm not at all convinced that every AA admit simply excels in other areas. That would negate the very need for AA.

Quote:
No one ever asked me what my SAT score was after I got into college. No one ever asked me what my LSAT score was after I got into law school. No one ever asked me what my GPA was after I got my first job. Because once you get admitted or hired, you can demonstrate your ability to contribute by actually contributing rather than patting yourself on the back because you consider yourself "worthy" because of test scores.

As others have pointed out, you appear to be bitter, defensive, and hateful, needing to distort arguments and just make stuff up. Calm down and realize that the classes at McNair, Harvard, Yale, etc are all still outstanding achievers even with affirmative action. And in fact affirmative action may very well improve such achievement for all involved.


Yeah, what I primarily question is that last sentence. I can't think of any achievement that the AA students improved for me at the elite institutions I attended.

Posted on: 2016/1/1 20:15
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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VanVorster wrote:
The bigots on here don't observe being polite or constructive but because of their anonymity and call people trash, inferior, crappy to imply their own supposed innate superiority. No one is expressly using the N word but it's there beneath the surface as well as the white superiority complex. And once a person of color calls them out on it, they get all bent out of shape and call the person of color a racist. That is called projection folks.

http://www.racefiles.com/2013/07/03/w ... bout-being-called-racist/



The only person who talks about entire races as monolithic groups is you. No one here has ever said that all black people are inferior. You just consistently create whatever facts fit your agenda.

Posted on: 2016/1/1 19:30
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The bigots on here don't observe being polite or constructive but because of their anonymity and call people trash, inferior, crappy to imply their own supposed innate superiority. No one is expressly using the N word but it's there beneath the surface as well as the white superiority complex. And once a person of color calls them out on it, they get all bent out of shape and call the person of color a racist. That is called projection folks.

http://www.racefiles.com/2013/07/03/w ... bout-being-called-racist/


Posted on: 2016/1/1 19:26
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You're the one providing anecdotes as though they are emblematic of how whites succeeded and others haven't leaving out crucial facts like those discussed in the article. I am countering your narrative since you brought it up to paint by numbers in effect how yours is so shallow. If you're an honest person, you'd admit that or lend it some plausibility but no, you'd rather gloss over that to justify your position (and implicitly others) and negate mine. As I said before, I am not entertaining notions of eugenics; and that some groups are just better people and others inferior/crappy or have better cultures when people have quite different circumstances and historical experiences for centuries.

To wit, "Both my grandfathers were metalworkers, perhaps one finished high school before being shipped off to the trenches in France, I don't know. No one in my family of that generation were wealthy or educated. But my father got a BA and my mother a PhD."

Posted on: 2016/1/1 19:14
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VanVorster wrote:
yeah Brewster, I wholeheartedly hear you. I get quite annoyed too when people leave out salient facts when they say inane things like "my grandfather came here with a dime and a pair of shoes and became middle class in a generation" leaving out crucial things like the GI Bill and no money down mortgages to land working class people in the suburbs and good schools etc. It's simply ignorant and misleading on the facts; and similarly undermines the credibility of the writer or proponent that it was all by dint of hard work and determination and if all those lazy blacks could just have done the same back then and now. Happy New Year.

http://newsreel.org/guides/race/whiteadv.htm


Now who's showing bias and stereotyping? Your above narrative is as ignorant and rationalizing as any discussed so far.

Posted on: 2016/1/1 0:29
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yeah Brewster, I wholeheartedly hear you. I get quite annoyed too when people leave out salient facts when they say inane things like "my grandfather came here with a dime and a pair of shoes and became middle class in a generation" leaving out crucial things like the GI Bill and no money down mortgages to land working class people in the suburbs and good schools etc. It's simply ignorant and misleading on the facts; and similarly undermines the credibility of the writer or proponent that it was all by dint of hard work and determination and if all those lazy blacks could just have done the same back then and now. Happy New Year.

http://newsreel.org/guides/race/whiteadv.htm

Posted on: 2015/12/31 22:44
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Pebble wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
This is so widely known that I thought that it should be obvious to anyone that has attended college/grad school. But here you go:

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/ ... oyment.Final_.update1.pdf

Unemployment rates:
Fluff - Art: 11.1%, Humanities/Liberal Arts: 9.4%;
Good degrees - Computer Science: 7.8%, Math: 6%, Business: 7.4%

The earnings delta is even greater. Your median humanities major makes $50k/year in their job, arts $46k, while business makes $64k, computers/math $76k and engineering a whopping $81k. This is from Georgetown, which I think is a respectable institution, even if not Ivy.

What you are presenting here is statistics about income and unemployment. You are not presenting the amount of debt that these students are carrying while leaving Ivy league schools. I am unsure if that statistic exists anywhere and I really don?t care enough to hunt it down.


Why would you assume debt load to be different based on course of study? Assume they're the same but one has drastically higher employment stats. Happy?

Quote:
My entire point was to state where one individual was providing some form of evidence, even if flimsy, while another just made a claim with a lack of evidence.


If I make a claim about something that is well known, I assume I don't have to provide links to back it up since everyone knows it. This is one of those things.

Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:
2. I find your hiring requirements a bit funny.


Why is that?

Short answer: the most famous and accomplished developers on the planet do not have college degrees. However, you find them unworthy of even considering because of this.

I also find it interesting that you don?t see any value in diversity. I can?t imagine any business, regardless of industry, having a monolithic thought process and being successful. The same goes for students studying and going to school. Our interactions help shape who we are and how we grow.
[/quote]

I don't see value in racial diversity, but I see value in viewpoint diversity. But I don't think people with technical degrees are a monolithic group.

With respect to Bill Gates/Steve Jobs types - they are the exception and not the rule. You hire based on probability, not based on hope that you'll get a complete outlier. Sure, some people who dropped out of high school are actually brilliant. Am I going to take that risk? No, I'm not.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 21:58
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Regarding Malia and Sasha, given their parents, going to Sidwell, access to tutors, etc. it's highly likely that their scores/grades will be very high given their backgrounds. Obama has gone on record and said they should not be considered as candidates for affirmative action and MOST reasonable logical people agree on that. What I find interesting is that white people rarely or never seem to get upset or bothered by the George Bushes of the world (of which there are many) who get gentlemen Cs, no discernible talent, middling SAT scores and even get to become president but the moment there's a black or latino person who gets into U Penn all hell breaks lose and it's "wait, what were his/her SAT scores!" That is how white entitlement and access goes unaddressed and ignored and others scapegoated.


The point about the Obama girls isn't that they would get a leg up, they obviously don't need it, it's that they would be considered "diversity", since that is weighted towards the racial not economic spectrum. As for GWB, I despised his mediocrity and crony capitalist successes, as did most everyone I knew.

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devilsadvocate wrote:
From that article: "Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks"

And many came from lower classes not from these backgrounds at all. Saying that Jews/Asians were just rich and educated when they came here shows immense ignorance of the history of both of these groups.


Yes, this is the sort of argument that annoys me too, ignorant or misleading on the facts. It undermines the credibility of the writer. That description applied to a small minority of Jews, mostly of the German contingent immigrating in the mid 19th century. The emigrants around the turn of the century were generally working class. Both my grandfathers were metalworkers, perhaps one finished high school before being shipped off to the trenches in France, I don't know. No one in my family of that generation were wealthy or educated. But my father got a BA and my mother a PhD.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 20:55
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the George Bushes of the world


Legacies...the biggest AA group around....but not at McNair, by the way. No family preference.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 18:19
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Anyone else notice what a 'bitchfest' this thread has become ?

Posted on: 2015/12/31 17:04
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Brewster
I actually don't need to lighten up. It's YOUR subjective opinion that Devil is just merely strident or stands by his convictions. We agree to disagree as I've seen his OTHER posts on other threads; and yes I think he's racist and a provocateur along with quite a few others on here. I actually think it's pathological at this point where something happened to him or her regarding blacks (a rival, etc.). In any event, I am not telling you how to feel on the matter so please don't tell me how I should feel and that he's a civil person and that I should take that as fact. He's the one calling people lazy, crappy, coming from a horrible culture and painting a narrative that is actually quite ugly and based on dog whistle politics which is sinister and often lost on oblivious people because it's so subtle and couched.

Regarding Malia and Sasha, given their parents, going to Sidwell, access to tutors, etc. it's highly likely that their scores/grades will be very high given their backgrounds. Obama has gone on record and said they should not be considered as candidates for affirmative action and MOST reasonable logical people agree on that. What I find interesting is that white people rarely or never seem to get upset or bothered by the George Bushes of the world (of which there are many) who get gentlemen Cs, no discernible talent, middling SAT scores and even get to become president but the moment there's a black or latino person who gets into U Penn all hell breaks lose and it's "wait, what were his/her SAT scores!" That is how white entitlement and access goes unaddressed and ignored and others scapegoated.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 16:53
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devilsadvocate wrote:
This is so widely known that I thought that it should be obvious to anyone that has attended college/grad school. But here you go:

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/ ... oyment.Final_.update1.pdf

Unemployment rates:
Fluff - Art: 11.1%, Humanities/Liberal Arts: 9.4%;
Good degrees - Computer Science: 7.8%, Math: 6%, Business: 7.4%

The earnings delta is even greater. Your median humanities major makes $50k/year in their job, arts $46k, while business makes $64k, computers/math $76k and engineering a whopping $81k. This is from Georgetown, which I think is a respectable institution, even if not Ivy.

What you are presenting here is statistics about income and unemployment. You are not presenting the amount of debt that these students are carrying while leaving Ivy league schools. I am unsure if that statistic exists anywhere and I really don?t care enough to hunt it down.

My entire point was to state where one individual was providing some form of evidence, even if flimsy, while another just made a claim with a lack of evidence.

Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
Quote:
2. I find your hiring requirements a bit funny.


Why is that?

Short answer: the most famous and accomplished developers on the planet do not have college degrees. However, you find them unworthy of even considering because of this.

I also find it interesting that you don?t see any value in diversity. I can?t imagine any business, regardless of industry, having a monolithic thought process and being successful. The same goes for students studying and going to school. Our interactions help shape who we are and how we grow.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 16:30
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