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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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VanVorster wrote:
Devil
Another poster on here asked why are you so hostile in your posts. So it's not just me. You come off very defensive, angry, and bitter which is why I said "seething resentment;"


I don't pull my punches with condescending jerks on the internet. I simply have zero reason to do so.

Quote:
and yes, you come off racist to me or as if you don't like black people and that is certainly your right.


I promise, if I were racist I would simply admit it. I'm anonymous on this board, so there would be no reason for me not to state exactly how I feel. However, I'm not because that would require me to dismiss smart people who I like just because they're black or whatever. That would be senseless. You, however, have an entirely different (and inherently racist) worldview. We saw that earlier in this thread where you discussed that you would engage me in a discussion, but only if I were one race but not another. That isn't a minor point - that betrays a worldview where thoughts have value determined by the race of the speaker.

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Saying I'm racist is ridiculous as I have nothing against white people, Asians, etc.


I'm sure you would like to believe this. I don't though.

Quote:
but I do take umbrage if you're going to denigrate black and Latino people -- people who I know very well and call us lazy, crappy or whatever pejorative term you can devise.


I'm not a racist so I wouldn't for a second say that all X are Y. Yes, dominant urban black culture in America (what most call "black culture") is awful. But I know perfectly well that not all blacks embrace that culture.

Quote:
I assume because of the cloak of anonymity on here you feel uninhibited to come off like an asshole but if there was transparency, I think you'd be more judicious and diplomatic with your words.


Sure. We live in a liberal PC world where you would run and lobby my employer to fire me because you don't like my views and your feelings are hurt. That is one reason I'm so f'ing angry at people like you. You f'ing a##holes have succeeded in actually limiting acceptable conversation on important issues in our society.

Quote:
I am glad you think you're not a crappy person and ostensibly a winner because you have a "great, high paying job, have multiple grad degrees from elite schools and own a house in DTJC". We all have to derive our sense of self esteem from somewhere but the seething anger is baffling, is it deficient looks, physically unattractive or something?


So just to refresh your memory - this all started when you basically assumed I was white trailer trash from Arkansas or something, angry that I couldn't get a job at the plant. This annoyed me for very many reasons, including that you've consistently tried to fit me into a nice pigeonhole, one that typically paints me as beneath you. It is obnoxious and betrays that you're a lazy thinker (which comports with your racist views in general).

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Try to be a calmer person in 2016 or express yourself with less vitriol.


Sure, I'll do that if you learn to be less condescending and perhaps think a bit harder when writing replies on this message board. By the way, notice that I respond in kind on this board. Treat me well and be thoughtful and I'll respond similarly.

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PS. It doesn't anger me in the least when black people (Glenn Loury) make similar arguments but at least they don't come off like the Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh prototype like you do.


LMAO, if you think I'm a Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh clone then you're even dumber than I thought.

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Again, if other reasonable people have said you're hostile, perhaps ponder that.


Yeah, you're not the only aggressive moron on this board so you're also not the only one I write this way too. Congrats on being part of a club of morons!

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#6 as to your comparison of disparities between blacks versus Jews/Asians. http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm


From that article: "Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks"

And many came from lower classes not from these backgrounds at all. Saying that Jews/Asians were just rich and educated when they came here shows immense ignorance of the history of both of these groups.

Quote:
Also, to what extent does unconscious bias alienate black and Latino youth when they are on the receiving end of things like this and everyone is saying it's a figment of their imaginations. These are law firm partners doing this. http://www.vault.com/blog/vaults-law- ... -firm-partners-are-racist


Ugh, you've taken enough of my time already.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 5:31
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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JimmyMook wrote:
So McNair has an admission system based on race and it is not disputed that to fill these quotas certain criteria are different for these racial groupings ?


Yes

Posted on: 2015/12/31 5:05
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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VanVorster wrote:
Devil
Another poster on here asked why are you so hostile in your posts. So it's not just me.


Honestly, lighten up a bit. This discussion is SOOOO civil compared to some other political forums where the name calling is in the 1st post! We all have different experiences, I'm finding it fascinating and enlightening to hear what my neighbors think, even if it's radically different from me. devilsadvocate has a strong viewpoint, but it doesn't seem to be dittohead talking points, which get tiresome.

I think some of the defenses of AA are overly simplistic. The contention that AA students are every bit as accomplished is naive, to me the question is whether the end justifies the means. My conclusion is we need a better means than self-identifying as a member of an underclass minority. We need to make the schools work harder at this. Admitting Sasha Obama and calling it diversity IS absurd.

Some years ago wife did some interviews for her highly competitive Alma Mater, and she was startled that on the form McNair's area was identified as "suburban Essex County". They really had no idea these kids were coming from dense inner city. No one she interviewed was admitted.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 4:32
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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devilsadvocate wrote:

Here's the disconnect here: she is saying "statistically, it is likely to result in X", to which you are countering with a personal anecdote that you didn't fit X. You may be a counter-example, but you don't disprove the statement, which is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of what you wrote implies that you wouldn't have been better off if you didn't major in something inherently marketable, rather than needing to rely on being a "quick learner" (which, in this market is a massively tough sell - I'm not going to hire even an entry level developer that doesn't have a CS degree because why would I? Nor will I hire a project manager with a "fluffy" degree even from an ivy when I could have many with an MIS, CS or at worst, straight up business management degree also from good schools).


What I'm saying is the average Ivy grad leaves school with a much lower student debt load than those who went to a non-Ivy private school, like NYU or Northwestern, and often lower than those who attended a state university. In 2012, the average debt owed by a Princeton grad was just over $5,000. At Yale, it was around $9,000. You owe more buying your first car. And its even possible to pay that off waiting tables. I have no idea what the job market is nowadays for those graduating with liberal arts degrees. I agree it's much tougher than it was 25-30 years ago and if I had a kid, I probably wouldn't want him/her to pursue a liberal arts degree. Your argument is narrowly based on hiring a software developer. Of course, you should only hire someone with a CS degree (fwiw, my ex has a CS degree and lost three jobs over a relatively short period because someone in or from India did the work for a lot less money). What I'm talking about are fields that DON'T require specific STEM skills. They do exist. For example, media, marketing and even finance. I know lots of people in finance - currency and bond traders and asset managers - who majored in history, philosophy and foreign languages.

I don't dispute your contention that I would have been better off pursuing something, as you put it, "inherently marketable." I certainly would be making more money, if that's what you mean by better off. But I know myself well enough to know I would have been bored and miserable in a technical field. Life is full of trade-offs that way. I'm in a job I mostly love and perform well (when I'm not on JC List). I'll never be wealthy, but I do all right: I have no debt besides the mortgage and I have enough to pay my bills, save decently for retirement and still have a little leftover to splurge on shoes or a vacation once in awhile. Btw, why are you so hostile to everyone posting on this thread? I mean this as a sincere question.


You are cherry picking the student debt data. Princeton is considered a model school in terms of how to best serve its student body with its "no loan policy". The average undergrad student load debt exceeds 27K. That's AVERAGE. For every Princeton grad with a debt of 5K, there's (statistically) one or more students with much more in debt.

Pebbles contention that data is not being provided is turning a blind to established facts: as a country, we are facing a student load debt crisis. Too many grads are coming out of school with too much debt. Add to these totals and numbers the people who continue their studies in fields like law, medicine, etc. Tons more money. The average law school loads debt is around 100K. For many schools, it is much more.


I was refuting your original contention of Ivy grads leaving school with "a pile of debt" they will regret. I'm saying the Ivies have fat endowments and a significantly high percentage graduate without any debt. Those who do typically have a total debt load well below the national average. Princeton is at the low end of the scale, Harvard and Yale in the middle of the pack among Ivies. At the high end is Brown, I think, at around $23K. That's still below the national average and lower than many car loans even. I absolutely agree that the nation is at a tipping point with outsized student loan debt. But if you can get into an Ivy, that's often the best education deal around due to the generous aid packages, even for the upper middle class.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 4:16

Edited by JadedJC on 2015/12/31 4:39:45
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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devilsadvocate wrote:

Here's the disconnect here: she is saying "statistically, it is likely to result in X", to which you are countering with a personal anecdote that you didn't fit X. You may be a counter-example, but you don't disprove the statement, which is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of what you wrote implies that you wouldn't have been better off if you didn't major in something inherently marketable, rather than needing to rely on being a "quick learner" (which, in this market is a massively tough sell - I'm not going to hire even an entry level developer that doesn't have a CS degree because why would I? Nor will I hire a project manager with a "fluffy" degree even from an ivy when I could have many with an MIS, CS or at worst, straight up business management degree also from good schools).


What I'm saying is the average Ivy grad leaves school with a much lower student debt load than those who went to a non-Ivy private school, like NYU or Northwestern, and often lower than those who attended a state university. In 2012, the average debt owed by a Princeton grad was just over $5,000. At Yale, it was around $9,000. You owe more buying your first car. And its even possible to pay that off waiting tables. I have no idea what the job market is nowadays for those graduating with liberal arts degrees. I agree it's much tougher than it was 25-30 years ago and if I had a kid, I probably wouldn't want him/her to pursue a liberal arts degree. Your argument is narrowly based on hiring a software developer. Of course, you should only hire someone with a CS degree (fwiw, my ex has a CS degree and lost three jobs over a relatively short period because someone in or from India did the work for a lot less money). What I'm talking about are fields that DON'T require specific STEM skills. They do exist. For example, media, marketing and even finance. I know lots of people in finance - currency and bond traders and asset managers - who majored in history, philosophy and foreign languages.

I don't dispute your contention that I would have been better off pursuing something, as you put it, "inherently marketable." I certainly would be making more money, if that's what you mean by better off. But I know myself well enough to know I would have been bored and miserable in a technical field. Life is full of trade-offs that way. I'm in a job I mostly love and perform well (when I'm not on JC List). I'll never be wealthy, but I do all right: I have no debt besides the mortgage and I have enough to pay my bills, save decently for retirement and still have a little leftover to splurge on shoes or a vacation once in awhile. Btw, why are you so hostile to everyone posting on this thread? I mean this as a sincere question.


You are cherry picking the student debt data. Princeton is considered a model school in terms of how to best serve its student body with its "no loan policy". The average undergrad student load debt exceeds 27K. That's AVERAGE. For every Princeton grad with a debt of 5K, there's (statistically) one or more students with much more in debt.

Pebbles contention that data is not being provided is turning a blind to established facts: as a country, we are facing a student load debt crisis. Too many grads are coming out of school with too much debt. Add to these totals and numbers the people who continue their studies in fields like law, medicine, etc. Tons more money. The average law school loads debt is around 100K. For many schools, it is much more.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 3:25
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Now you're just equivocating. "Oh, as long as they're REASONABLY smart it is GOOD ENOUGH." No, there are admissions criteria and you're supposed to choose people that *best* fit them.


That's what you say, not what people looking to create the next class of scholars says. You treat it like it's some game where you get a reward for a high score. Anyone admitted to these schools has achieved and accomplished both with numbers and in other areas.

No one ever asked me what my SAT score was after I got into college. No one ever asked me what my LSAT score was after I got into law school. No one ever asked me what my GPA was after I got my first job. Because once you get admitted or hired, you can demonstrate your ability to contribute by actually contributing rather than patting yourself on the back because you consider yourself "worthy" because of test scores.

As others have pointed out, you appear to be bitter, defensive, and hateful, needing to distort arguments and just make stuff up. Calm down and realize that the classes at McNair, Harvard, Yale, etc are all still outstanding achievers even with affirmative action. And in fact affirmative action may very well improve such achievement for all involved.

Posted on: 2015/12/31 1:57
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Another poster on here asked why are you so hostile in your posts. So it's not just me. You come off very defensive, angry, and bitter which is why I said "seething resentment;" and yes, you come off racist to me or as if you don't like black people and that is certainly your right. Saying I'm racist is ridiculous as I have nothing against white people, Asians, etc. but I do take umbrage if you're going to denigrate black and Latino people -- people who I know very well and call us lazy, crappy or whatever pejorative term you can devise. I assume because of the cloak of anonymity on here you feel uninhibited to come off like an asshole but if there was transparency, I think you'd be more judicious and diplomatic with your words. I am glad you think you're not a crappy person and ostensibly a winner because you have a "great, high paying job, have multiple grad degrees from elite schools and own a house in DTJC". We all have to derive our sense of self esteem from somewhere but the seething anger is baffling, is it deficient looks, physically unattractive or something? Try to be a calmer person in 2016 or express yourself with less vitriol.

PS. It doesn't anger me in the least when black people (Glenn Loury) make similar arguments but at least they don't come off like the Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh prototype like you do. Again, if other reasonable people have said you're hostile, perhaps ponder that.

#6 as to your comparison of disparities between blacks versus Jews/Asians. http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm

Also, to what extent does unconscious bias alienate black and Latino youth when they are on the receiving end of things like this and everyone is saying it's a figment of their imaginations. These are law firm partners doing this. http://www.vault.com/blog/vaults-law- ... -firm-partners-are-racist

Posted on: 2015/12/30 22:53

Edited by VanVorster on 2015/12/30 23:13:29
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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JadedJC wrote:
A hiring manager once told me that most liberal arts majors end up in jobs/careers that have nothing to do with their field of study, but he found them to be quick learners on the job and they were far more adaptable and flexible


It's kinda sad, once upon a time college wasn't trade school. It was where you learned enough about the world and yourself to think critically and be able to adapt to whatever life brought you.

The current specialized state of things reminds me of an apocryphal story told to me by a sculptor years ago. A renowned sculptor goes see a prospective client who needs a statue of a cow. He shows a portfolio full of gorgeous figures of horses, but the client sends him on his way, saying he's looking for a cow sculptor.
maybe universities should do away with sat scores/gmat as the key determinant.....i believe harvard business does not require gmat scores any longer.

also, i would expect that someone who is going to study fine arts at a good school also would have lackluster scores on the math portion as someone who intends to be an astrophysicist or an engineer. maybe the liberal arts schools should simply get rid of their arts/theater/history and other such programs.


HBS merely allows you to submit the GRE instead. They haven't done away with standardized testing.

In general, doing away with a standardized, unbiased methodology for comparing students is an absolutely atrocious idea.

With respect to BS majors - they should definitely reduce the number of slots available and it should mirror demand in our economy for positions in those fields.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 22:45
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Pebble wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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JadedJC wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:

Statistically, anyone attending an Ivy for a humanities or liberal arts undergrad degree is likely going to end up with a pile of debt that they will come to regret.


Not quite true. I went to an Ivy, got a liberal arts degree and was able to pay off my very modest student loan in about five years. Granted, I lived a very spartan life those first five years out of school and didn't eat out or take any trips, not even for friends' weddings. The Ivies are so well endowed that no one pays full freight unless you're from a super wealthy family. They were able to cobble a very good aid package for me through a combination of scholarships, grants and work-study jobs. Most importantly, they didn't count my parents' home as an asset in determining my aid package. Most schools back then did, which almost always disqualified me from any meaningful financial aid. Nowadays, the state schools have seen so much of their funding cut that tuition, especially if you're going out of state, can run as much as a private university - and most of them can't offer the same level of grants and scholarships.

It's also correct that an Ivy League degree will help open some doors for job interviews you might not otherwise get. If you ever get laid off, the alumni network also comes in handy, but that's about it. How you perform and thrive on the job often depends on the stuff they don't teach you in school. A lot of it is the ability to survive and navigate office politics through people skills and diplomacy. I don't know what the job landscape is like today for people just graduating from schools, but a liberal arts degree wasn't necessarily a dead end. A hiring manager once told me that most liberal arts majors end up in jobs/careers that have nothing to do with their field of study, but he found them to be quick learners on the job and they were far more adaptable and flexible


Here's the disconnect here: she is saying "statistically, it is likely to result in X", to which you are countering with a personal anecdote that you didn't fit X. You may be a counter-example, but you don't disprove the statement, which is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of what you wrote implies that you wouldn't have been better off if you didn't major in something inherently marketable, rather than needing to rely on being a "quick learner" (which, in this market is a massively tough sell - I'm not going to hire even an entry level developer that doesn't have a CS degree because why would I? Nor will I hire a project manager with a "fluffy" degree even from an ivy when I could have many with an MIS, CS or at worst, straight up business management degree also from good schools).


Quote:
1. He only stated that it was statistically likely to end up with piles of debt and not a job. There was no actual evidence supporting this statement. While JadedJC did make anecdotal argument, it should carry more weight than one which is not supported by any facts.


This is so widely known that I thought that it should be obvious to anyone that has attended college/grad school. But here you go:

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/ ... oyment.Final_.update1.pdf

Unemployment rates:
Fluff - Art: 11.1%, Humanities/Liberal Arts: 9.4%;
Good degrees - Computer Science: 7.8%, Math: 6%, Business: 7.4%

The earnings delta is even greater. Your median humanities major makes $50k/year in their job, arts $46k, while business makes $64k, computers/math $76k and engineering a whopping $81k. This is from Georgetown, which I think is a respectable institution, even if not Ivy.

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2. I find your hiring requirements a bit funny.


Why is that?

Posted on: 2015/12/30 22:41
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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First, to the extent there's a vast discrepancy (that wasn't the case when I was in college and the black enrollment was roughly 5-6%) in test scores vis-a-vis whites and also Asians, I do think that would be largely attributable to the social and public policies that have been in place since time immemorial in this country that ensured blacks and Latinos would be consigned to lesser quality schools and their parents not have the same privileges or access as others (e.g. poor whites who made into the middle class afforded all the preferences and privileges simply for the mere fact of being white or perceived as white).


Great. I disagree entirely on that. As evidence, I will point out that lower scores persist even as the racial groups rise on the socioeconomic ladder. I recall observing this in person as black and Latino students in my upper middle class neighborhoods tended to get significantly worse grades and test scores, with several notable exceptions. Those notable exceptions absolutely should have made it into good schools, but they would have done so even without AA. The rest should have gone to community college or worked a McJob, which is where they belonged. The beauty of reliance on grades and test scores is that they are inherently fair. Anyone that learns the material can do well. Do you imagine that somehow whites have always loved Asians and Jews? Far from it. Yet these two groups consistently have outperformed whites with respect to grades and standardized test scores.

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Many of the Asians with whom I went to college were quite affluent also and had the resources to ensure optimal test scores on the SAT (tutors, etc.). For instance, my roommate in college was Asian and went to boarding school in the US and his dad was some big shot in Hong Kong and the same could be said for most of his friends.


Yet, poor Asians who cannot afford private tutoring still outperform for their expected socioeconomic status. And they do it without any affirmative action whatsoever. You know why? If you look around you'll know exactly why.

Quote:
Second, your insipid narrative below about poor white kids knowing they had to work twice or three times as hard to get into a good school and your veiled allusion to black kids being lazy rings hollow for me.


Perhaps I wasn't being clear. The poor whites were totally unaware of these things because they weren't aspiring to these schools from the time they were little kids - so they weren't bitter. I'm noting that the bitter people are those from good families that were working to get their kids into good schools from early childhood.

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What's next in your vignette, the white kids wore bread bags to school and walked 5 miles to the recreation center for extra homework tutoring? That black kids with whom I went to college and grad school were quite industrious and hard working. Also, if you know any history, America has been one big preferential platter and Affirmative Action bonanza for white people for CENTURIES from the plunder of land and people (eg. slaves) to ensure maximum resource allocation for white people (land, schools, jobs, property, GI bills, pensions, etc.)


Neither here nor there. There's no collective punishment and nor should there be. Further, there has been discrimination against Jews and Asians too, yet these groups have somehow beaten whites in every category that matters.

Quote:
If you are Asian, then I may indulge your ax to grind but I suspect you're white and using this as a wedge issue to foment dissension between the so-called model minority and blacks & Latinos. That is what conservatives like yourself do. I have seen a lot of white mediocrity in my lifetime (school and work) so really not indulging your BS.


I'm not going to give personal information on here besides to say that I belong to *a* minority, one sufficiently identifiable that combined with the other information I post here would limit me to a pretty small number of people. Which one? I'll let you guess. Truthfully, who I am is actually totally irrelevant. The veracity of arguments doesn't rest on who is making them. Answer or don't, I really don't care since I have yet to see you make a single, intelligent argument on this forum. However, it must infuriate you that there are black people making the exact same arguments that I make.

Quote:
Second, the schools which you revere and covet so much made much of their wealth through slavery and exploitation.


Doesn't matter for a variety of reasons. Next argument.

Quote:
Third, I don't know if it was brewster or someone else who mentioned the Southern Strategy but just a cursory inspection of your posts makes me feel like you're the very audience in the last article by Barbara Ehrenreich.


I have a great, high paying job, have multiple grad degrees from elite schools and own a house in DTJC. Nor do I come from white or blue collar background. Sorry I don't fit into your cardboard cutout.

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You have a lot of seething resentment and I guess you feel sort of stoked or amped up because you and your ilk (JCMan8) get to be anonymous and blithely posts your racists posts.


Your posts are significantly more racist than mine are. Incomparably so. You are in fact certain that I cannot be a minority because my views are "inconsistent with what they should be." Ponder this for a second. As if I owe it to you to believe anything because of my family background.

Quote:
Sad. Fourth, the one shred we agree on is that I do think AA should be class based (class often inextricably linked to race and there's a reason white people have 21x the wealth of black people, perpetual systemic discrimination).


I think AA should exist in a limited capacity and I agree it should be entirely class based with zero racial bias. I also agree that given where we are, that this will nevertheless most benefit blacks and latinos (just like athletic scholarships do), which is all fine. I also think there has to be more effort in creating opportunities for people from poor neighborhoods to go to better schools earlier, get access to technology earlier, and for parents on welfare to get more/less welfare depending on how their kids do. There should be better public housing for families of kids who do extremely well academically. Kids who get bad grades, get arrested, etc. should result in family benefits being reduced. Within a generation or two, there will be less respect for rappers, drug dealers and others and more respect for the "oreo" kid that just studies hard. We have the ability to create real incentives, but with the two party system in America it is never going to happen. Democrats have no incentive to see this happen for a variety of reasons. Same with Republicans. Anyway, I know I'm wasting my breath with you so whatever, go ahead and tell me what a racist I am and please continue to tell me about how I'm some white blue collar guy whining about blacks who went to"that super expensive kollege" because I miss the times when I could own a slave (by the way - exactly zero of my family was in this country during that timeframe).

Posted on: 2015/12/30 22:27
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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A hiring manager once told me that most liberal arts majors end up in jobs/careers that have nothing to do with their field of study, but he found them to be quick learners on the job and they were far more adaptable and flexible


It's kinda sad, once upon a time college wasn't trade school. It was where you learned enough about the world and yourself to think critically and be able to adapt to whatever life brought you.

The current specialized state of things reminds me of an apocryphal story told to me by a sculptor years ago. A renowned sculptor goes see a prospective client who needs a statue of a cow. He shows a portfolio full of gorgeous figures of horses, but the client sends him on his way, saying he's looking for a cow sculptor.
maybe universities should do away with sat scores/gmat as the key determinant.....i believe harvard business does not require gmat scores any longer.

also, i would expect that someone who is going to study fine arts at a good school also would have lackluster scores on the math portion as someone who intends to be an astrophysicist or an engineer. maybe the liberal arts schools should simply get rid of their arts/theater/history and other such programs.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 21:49
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A hiring manager once told me that most liberal arts majors end up in jobs/careers that have nothing to do with their field of study, but he found them to be quick learners on the job and they were far more adaptable and flexible


It's kinda sad, once upon a time college wasn't trade school. It was where you learned enough about the world and yourself to think critically and be able to adapt to whatever life brought you.

The current specialized state of things reminds me of an apocryphal story told to me by a sculptor years ago. A renowned sculptor goes see a prospective client who needs a statue of a cow. He shows a portfolio full of gorgeous figures of horses, but the client sends him on his way, saying he's looking for a cow sculptor.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 21:07
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Here's the disconnect here: she is saying "statistically, it is likely to result in X", to which you are countering with a personal anecdote that you didn't fit X. You may be a counter-example, but you don't disprove the statement, which is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of what you wrote implies that you wouldn't have been better off if you didn't major in something inherently marketable, rather than needing to rely on being a "quick learner" (which, in this market is a massively tough sell - I'm not going to hire even an entry level developer that doesn't have a CS degree because why would I? Nor will I hire a project manager with a "fluffy" degree even from an ivy when I could have many with an MIS, CS or at worst, straight up business management degree also from good schools).


What I'm saying is the average Ivy grad leaves school with a much lower student debt load than those who went to a non-Ivy private school, like NYU or Northwestern, and often lower than those who attended a state university. In 2012, the average debt owed by a Princeton grad was just over $5,000. At Yale, it was around $9,000. You owe more buying your first car. And its even possible to pay that off waiting tables. I have no idea what the job market is nowadays for those graduating with liberal arts degrees. I agree it's much tougher than it was 25-30 years ago and if I had a kid, I probably wouldn't want him/her to pursue a liberal arts degree. Your argument is narrowly based on hiring a software developer. Of course, you should only hire someone with a CS degree (fwiw, my ex has a CS degree and lost three jobs over a relatively short period because someone in or from India did the work for a lot less money). What I'm talking about are fields that DON'T require specific STEM skills. They do exist. For example, media, marketing and even finance. I know lots of people in finance - currency and bond traders and asset managers - who majored in history, philosophy and foreign languages.

I don't dispute your contention that I would have been better off pursuing something, as you put it, "inherently marketable." I certainly would be making more money, if that's what you mean by better off. But I know myself well enough to know I would have been bored and miserable in a technical field. Life is full of trade-offs that way. I'm in a job I mostly love and perform well (when I'm not on JC List). I'll never be wealthy, but I do all right: I have no debt besides the mortgage and I have enough to pay my bills, save decently for retirement and still have a little leftover to splurge on shoes or a vacation once in awhile. Btw, why are you so hostile to everyone posting on this thread? I mean this as a sincere question.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 20:06
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Statistically, anyone attending an Ivy for a humanities or liberal arts undergrad degree is likely going to end up with a pile of debt that they will come to regret.


Not quite true. I went to an Ivy, got a liberal arts degree and was able to pay off my very modest student loan in about five years. Granted, I lived a very spartan life those first five years out of school and didn't eat out or take any trips, not even for friends' weddings. The Ivies are so well endowed that no one pays full freight unless you're from a super wealthy family. They were able to cobble a very good aid package for me through a combination of scholarships, grants and work-study jobs. Most importantly, they didn't count my parents' home as an asset in determining my aid package. Most schools back then did, which almost always disqualified me from any meaningful financial aid. Nowadays, the state schools have seen so much of their funding cut that tuition, especially if you're going out of state, can run as much as a private university - and most of them can't offer the same level of grants and scholarships.

It's also correct that an Ivy League degree will help open some doors for job interviews you might not otherwise get. If you ever get laid off, the alumni network also comes in handy, but that's about it. How you perform and thrive on the job often depends on the stuff they don't teach you in school. A lot of it is the ability to survive and navigate office politics through people skills and diplomacy. I don't know what the job landscape is like today for people just graduating from schools, but a liberal arts degree wasn't necessarily a dead end. A hiring manager once told me that most liberal arts majors end up in jobs/careers that have nothing to do with their field of study, but he found them to be quick learners on the job and they were far more adaptable and flexible


Here's the disconnect here: she is saying "statistically, it is likely to result in X", to which you are countering with a personal anecdote that you didn't fit X. You may be a counter-example, but you don't disprove the statement, which is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of what you wrote implies that you wouldn't have been better off if you didn't major in something inherently marketable, rather than needing to rely on being a "quick learner" (which, in this market is a massively tough sell - I'm not going to hire even an entry level developer that doesn't have a CS degree because why would I? Nor will I hire a project manager with a "fluffy" degree even from an ivy when I could have many with an MIS, CS or at worst, straight up business management degree also from good schools).

1. He only stated that it was statistically likely to end up with piles of debt and not a job. There was no actual evidence supporting this statement. While JadedJC did make anecdotal argument, it should carry more weight than one which is not supported by any facts.

2. I find your hiring requirements a bit funny.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 19:35
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First, to the extent there's a vast discrepancy (that wasn't the case when I was in college and the black enrollment was roughly 5-6%) in test scores vis-a-vis whites and also Asians, I do think that would be largely attributable to the social and public policies that have been in place since time immemorial in this country that ensured blacks and Latinos would be consigned to lesser quality schools and their parents not have the same privileges or access as others (e.g. poor whites who made into the middle class afforded all the preferences and privileges simply for the mere fact of being white or perceived as white). Many of the Asians with whom I went to college were quite affluent also and had the resources to ensure optimal test scores on the SAT (tutors, etc.). For instance, my roommate in college was Asian and went to boarding school in the US and his dad was some big shot in Hong Kong and the same could be said for most of his friends. Second, your insipid narrative below about poor white kids knowing they had to work twice or three times as hard to get into a good school and your veiled allusion to black kids being lazy rings hollow for me. What's next in your vignette, the white kids wore bread bags to school and walked 5 miles to the recreation center for extra homework tutoring? That black kids with whom I went to college and grad school were quite industrious and hard working. Also, if you know any history, America has been one big preferential platter and Affirmative Action bonanza for white people for CENTURIES from the plunder of land and people (eg. slaves) to ensure maximum resource allocation for white people (land, schools, jobs, property, GI bills, pensions, etc.) If you are Asian, then I may indulge your ax to grind but I suspect you're white and using this as a wedge issue to foment dissension between the so-called model minority and blacks & Latinos. That is what conservatives like yourself do. I have seen a lot of white mediocrity in my lifetime (school and work) so really not indulging your BS. Second, the schools which you revere and covet so much made much of their wealth through slavery and exploitation. Third, I don't know if it was brewster or someone else who mentioned the Southern Strategy but just a cursory inspection of your posts makes me feel like you're the very audience in the last article by Barbara Ehrenreich. You have a lot of seething resentment and I guess you feel sort of stoked or amped up because you and your ilk (JCMan8) get to be anonymous and blithely posts your racists posts. Sad. Fourth, the one shred we agree on is that I do think AA should be class based (class often inextricably linked to race and there's a reason white people have 21x the wealth of black people, perpetual systemic discrimination).


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/boo ... white-uncivil-rights.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/19/boo ... ed-universities-grow.html

http://qz.com/457284/white-people-ple ... for-your-mediocre-grades/

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/02/dead_ ... he_working_class_partner/

Posted on: 2015/12/30 19:19
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bodhipooh wrote:

Statistically, anyone attending an Ivy for a humanities or liberal arts undergrad degree is likely going to end up with a pile of debt that they will come to regret.


Not quite true. I went to an Ivy, got a liberal arts degree and was able to pay off my very modest student loan in about five years. Granted, I lived a very spartan life those first five years out of school and didn't eat out or take any trips, not even for friends' weddings. The Ivies are so well endowed that no one pays full freight unless you're from a super wealthy family. They were able to cobble a very good aid package for me through a combination of scholarships, grants and work-study jobs. Most importantly, they didn't count my parents' home as an asset in determining my aid package. Most schools back then did, which almost always disqualified me from any meaningful financial aid. Nowadays, the state schools have seen so much of their funding cut that tuition, especially if you're going out of state, can run as much as a private university - and most of them can't offer the same level of grants and scholarships.

It's also correct that an Ivy League degree will help open some doors for job interviews you might not otherwise get. If you ever get laid off, the alumni network also comes in handy, but that's about it. How you perform and thrive on the job often depends on the stuff they don't teach you in school. A lot of it is the ability to survive and navigate office politics through people skills and diplomacy. I don't know what the job landscape is like today for people just graduating from schools, but a liberal arts degree wasn't necessarily a dead end. A hiring manager once told me that most liberal arts majors end up in jobs/careers that have nothing to do with their field of study, but he found them to be quick learners on the job and they were far more adaptable and flexible


Here's the disconnect here: she is saying "statistically, it is likely to result in X", to which you are countering with a personal anecdote that you didn't fit X. You may be a counter-example, but you don't disprove the statement, which is correct.

The other thing to keep in mind is that none of what you wrote implies that you wouldn't have been better off if you didn't major in something inherently marketable, rather than needing to rely on being a "quick learner" (which, in this market is a massively tough sell - I'm not going to hire even an entry level developer that doesn't have a CS degree because why would I? Nor will I hire a project manager with a "fluffy" degree even from an ivy when I could have many with an MIS, CS or at worst, straight up business management degree also from good schools).

Posted on: 2015/12/30 19:18
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
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Mao wrote:
Yea, it's a different issue. I should concede, however, that it is true, nonetheless, that the connections and prestige of these places seems to open more doors than ever. The "meritocracy" appears to be more of a closed system than at the height of the old days of the Wasp ascendancy. Think of the Clintons and the Obamas. Interestingly, in the GOP field, I think Cruz is the only one who is a product of the elite system! Even Jeb bush went to UTex!


On this, I think Brewster said it best. Regardless of your undergrad or grad program, ultimately you will succeed or fail based on skills, smarts and drive. The school connections may get you access, interviews and maybe even in through the door, but mediocrity will not get you far, even when connected. I have seen lots of people from Ivy backgrounds do well for short periods of time, only to end up doing poorly overall. In some corporate environments, the ability to survive cutthroat competition is the one skill that sets otherwise similarly skilled people aside. That is true of Big Law and Wall Street firms. I have seen more broken people in those environments than I care to remember.


I don't disagree if your goal is to move up at large law firms or ibanks/PE/VC/HF/etc. But consider that it is significantly better to median from a top school which can get you a job at a large law firm or financial group, at which point you only have to be good enough to survive a few years before reaching for an exit opportunity. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm in one of those nice exit opportunities myself and I don't miss the all nighters or general hours, while the pay is still quite good. Meanwhile, those from less prestigious institutions (even those with above average grades) are doing things I've fortunately never had to consider doing.

Quote:
Statistically, anyone attending an Ivy for a humanities or liberal arts undergrad degree is likely going to end up with a pile of debt that they will come to regret. Prospects for high income are slim, and that debt load will limit your possibilities in life. Even some STEM careers can be fraught with relatively low pay given the amount of money and time one must invest to reach employability. Still, the smart money and career move is to go into STEM and/or business school. Even freshly minted lawyers are now facing a dearth of jobs and huge debt loads.


Agreed, except that I would remove the "even." The oversupply of lawyers is astounding. If they closed all of the law schools except for the Tier 1 in USNEWS + ensuring that every state keeps at least 1 school (assuming they have one) and you still won't have a shortage. Right now those at the bottom of the tier 1 are already looking at unemployment unless they are the top of their class. And remember, only 10% can be in the top 10%.

Anyway, this is what you get with easy government money backing student loans, greedy admins, a bar association that won't do their job, and a culture that tells everyone that they can be anyone they want to when they grow up.


I particularly agree with your last paragraph in terms of the often parroted "go to college and you will succeed" mantra. For the past several decades, going to college was considered to be a "safe" investment that will ensure you obtained a well paying job, a good lifestyle, and family bliss. Because of that, the market reacted and adjusted to the barrage of students pursuing a degree. You have a TON of colleges and universities now, many of questionable caliber/quality. It is somewhat of a fraud perpetuated by the government and society. Some people should NOT go to college. Not because they are not deserving, but rather because they are not apt for it, and could instead benefit more from a vocational school. Trades and skills are not as well regarded by society, so people eschew those options, and so we now have an overeducated portion of society without true smarts or skills, resulting in many degree holding people that are "under employed" or doing something entirely different from what they studied. I would feel betrayed and short changed if I had studied (and paid top dollar) for a worthless piece of paper that gets me no further than if I had done nothing, or something else, entirely.

It may sound tremendously harsh, but the truth is that we are NOT all equal. Some people are smarter or more skilled than others, and you can't just tell every student that they can grow up to be anything they want. It is not true, and it is a disservice to some.


I completely agree. But the additional outcome of all of this, which continues to perpetuate this system that continues to get more expensive every single year despite stagnating wages, is credential inflation. Take the legal profession - in the past the notion that you needed a college degree to be a legal secretary or even a paralegal would be laughable. It was a plus, but not a requirement. These days it is a firm requirement (pardon the pun). So now you have people going to college that shouldn't, majoring in nonsense because they couldn't handle a real course of study, resulting in this sort of thing being required to get even the lowest white collar job out there. Oh and those top jobs? They now require one or more (!!) grad degrees. All of which results in exploding student loan debt, demographics collapsing (particularly for the middle/upper middle class) with family formation collapsing or happening much later in life, and an increasingly polarized society. And those who have kids are left battling it out for ANY advantage (such as what we see here with McNair) because they either get and stay on the right course and make great money that will allow them to repay the student loans AND allow them to buy a house (at inflated prices) AND allow them to have a family of their own.




Posted on: 2015/12/30 19:12
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Statistically, anyone attending an Ivy for a humanities or liberal arts undergrad degree is likely going to end up with a pile of debt that they will come to regret.


Not quite true. I went to an Ivy, got a liberal arts degree and was able to pay off my very modest student loan in about five years. Granted, I lived a very spartan life those first five years out of school and didn't eat out or take any trips, not even for friends' weddings. The Ivies are so well endowed that no one pays full freight unless you're from a super wealthy family. They were able to cobble a very good aid package for me through a combination of scholarships, grants and work-study jobs. Most importantly, they didn't count my parents' home as an asset in determining my aid package. Most schools back then did, which almost always disqualified me from any meaningful financial aid. Nowadays, the state schools have seen so much of their funding cut that tuition, especially if you're going out of state, can run as much as a private university - and most of them can't offer the same level of grants and scholarships.

It's also correct that an Ivy League degree will help open some doors for job interviews you might not otherwise get. If you ever get laid off, the alumni network also comes in handy, but that's about it. How you perform and thrive on the job often depends on the stuff they don't teach you in school. A lot of it is the ability to survive and navigate office politics through people skills and diplomacy. I don't know what the job landscape is like today for people just graduating from schools, but a liberal arts degree wasn't necessarily a dead end. A hiring manager once told me that most liberal arts majors end up in jobs/careers that have nothing to do with their field of study, but he found them to be quick learners on the job and they were far more adaptable and flexible

Posted on: 2015/12/30 19:11
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bodhipooh wrote:
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Mao wrote:
Yea, it's a different issue. I should concede, however, that it is true, nonetheless, that the connections and prestige of these places seems to open more doors than ever. The "meritocracy" appears to be more of a closed system than at the height of the old days of the Wasp ascendancy. Think of the Clintons and the Obamas. Interestingly, in the GOP field, I think Cruz is the only one who is a product of the elite system! Even Jeb bush went to UTex!


On this, I think Brewster said it best. Regardless of your undergrad or grad program, ultimately you will succeed or fail based on skills, smarts and drive. The school connections may get you access, interviews and maybe even in through the door, but mediocrity will not get you far, even when connected. I have seen lots of people from Ivy backgrounds do well for short periods of time, only to end up doing poorly overall. In some corporate environments, the ability to survive cutthroat competition is the one skill that sets otherwise similarly skilled people aside. That is true of Big Law and Wall Street firms. I have seen more broken people in those environments than I care to remember.


I don't disagree if your goal is to move up at large law firms or ibanks/PE/VC/HF/etc. But consider that it is significantly better to median from a top school which can get you a job at a large law firm or financial group, at which point you only have to be good enough to survive a few years before reaching for an exit opportunity. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm in one of those nice exit opportunities myself and I don't miss the all nighters or general hours, while the pay is still quite good. Meanwhile, those from less prestigious institutions (even those with above average grades) are doing things I've fortunately never had to consider doing.

Quote:
Statistically, anyone attending an Ivy for a humanities or liberal arts undergrad degree is likely going to end up with a pile of debt that they will come to regret. Prospects for high income are slim, and that debt load will limit your possibilities in life. Even some STEM careers can be fraught with relatively low pay given the amount of money and time one must invest to reach employability. Still, the smart money and career move is to go into STEM and/or business school. Even freshly minted lawyers are now facing a dearth of jobs and huge debt loads.


Agreed, except that I would remove the "even." The oversupply of lawyers is astounding. If they closed all of the law schools except for the Tier 1 in USNEWS + ensuring that every state keeps at least 1 school (assuming they have one) and you still won't have a shortage. Right now those at the bottom of the tier 1 are already looking at unemployment unless they are the top of their class. And remember, only 10% can be in the top 10%.

Anyway, this is what you get with easy government money backing student loans, greedy admins, a bar association that won't do their job, and a culture that tells everyone that they can be anyone they want to when they grow up.


I particularly agree with your last paragraph in terms of the often parroted "go to college and you will succeed" mantra. For the past several decades, going to college was considered to be a "safe" investment that will ensure you obtained a well paying job, a good lifestyle, and family bliss. Because of that, the market reacted and adjusted to the barrage of students pursuing a degree. You have a TON of colleges and universities now, many of questionable caliber/quality. It is somewhat of a fraud perpetuated by the government and society. Some people should NOT go to college. Not because they are not deserving, but rather because they are not apt for it, and could instead benefit more from a vocational school. Trades and skills are not as well regarded by society, so people eschew those options, and so we now have an overeducated portion of society without true smarts or skills, resulting in many degree holding people that are "under employed" or doing something entirely different from what they studied. I would feel betrayed and short changed if I had studied (and paid top dollar) for a worthless piece of paper that gets me no further than if I had done nothing, or something else, entirely.

It may sound tremendously harsh, but the truth is that we are NOT all equal. Some people are smarter or more skilled than others, and you can't just tell every student that they can grow up to be anything they want. It is not true, and it is a disservice to some.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 18:07
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Yea, it's a different issue. I should concede, however, that it is true, nonetheless, that the connections and prestige of these places seems to open more doors than ever. The "meritocracy" appears to be more of a closed system than at the height of the old days of the Wasp ascendancy. Think of the Clintons and the Obamas. Interestingly, in the GOP field, I think Cruz is the only one who is a product of the elite system! Even Jeb bush went to UTex!


The world was different back then. There was generally more opportunity for more people. When I talk to my parents about career stuff it is immediately clear that expectations were dramatically lower. To get to the top you needed to be "generally good" but not necessarily astoundingly good. These days "generally good" is usually just enough to keep your job and sometimes not even that. Astoundingly good may or may not see you move up. Everyone does more work with less people and more of the profits go to the top or to the shareholders. That's just how it is. Then add globalization to the mix... And it is all continuing to move in the same direction and regardless of what politicians promise, that isn't changing.

With respect to politicians, while Jeb only went to UTexas Austin (which, to be fair is still respectable), his brother (GW) went to Yale and Harvard Business School. His father also attended Yale. Nevertheless, I agree that the Democrats have a more consistently pedigreed crowd. Reagan attended freakin' Eureka college (and I had to look that up, plus look up what a "Eureka" actually was).


Posted on: 2015/12/30 17:51
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Mao wrote:
Yea, it's a different issue. I should concede, however, that it is true, nonetheless, that the connections and prestige of these places seems to open more doors than ever. The "meritocracy" appears to be more of a closed system than at the height of the old days of the Wasp ascendancy. Think of the Clintons and the Obamas. Interestingly, in the GOP field, I think Cruz is the only one who is a product of the elite system! Even Jeb bush went to UTex!


On this, I think Brewster said it best. Regardless of your undergrad or grad program, ultimately you will succeed or fail based on skills, smarts and drive. The school connections may get you access, interviews and maybe even in through the door, but mediocrity will not get you far, even when connected. I have seen lots of people from Ivy backgrounds do well for short periods of time, only to end up doing poorly overall. In some corporate environments, the ability to survive cutthroat competition is the one skill that sets otherwise similarly skilled people aside. That is true of Big Law and Wall Street firms. I have seen more broken people in those environments than I care to remember.


I don't disagree if your goal is to move up at large law firms or ibanks/PE/VC/HF/etc. But consider that it is significantly better to median from a top school which can get you a job at a large law firm or financial group, at which point you only have to be good enough to survive a few years before reaching for an exit opportunity. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm in one of those nice exit opportunities myself and I don't miss the all nighters or general hours, while the pay is still quite good. Meanwhile, those from less prestigious institutions (even those with above average grades) are doing things I've fortunately never had to consider doing.

Quote:
Statistically, anyone attending an Ivy for a humanities or liberal arts undergrad degree is likely going to end up with a pile of debt that they will come to regret. Prospects for high income are slim, and that debt load will limit your possibilities in life. Even some STEM careers can be fraught with relatively low pay given the amount of money and time one must invest to reach employability. Still, the smart money and career move is to go into STEM and/or business school. Even freshly minted lawyers are now facing a dearth of jobs and huge debt loads.


Agreed, except that I would remove the "even." The oversupply of lawyers is astounding. If they closed all of the law schools except for the Tier 1 in USNEWS + ensuring that every state keeps at least 1 school (assuming they have one) and you still won't have a shortage. Right now those at the bottom of the tier 1 are already looking at unemployment unless they are the top of their class. And remember, only 10% can be in the top 10%.

Anyway, this is what you get with easy government money backing student loans, greedy admins, a bar association that won't do their job, and a culture that tells everyone that they can be anyone they want to when they grow up.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 17:41
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Yea, it's a different issue. I should concede, however, that it is true, nonetheless, that the connections and prestige of these places seems to open more doors than ever. The "meritocracy" appears to be more of a closed system than at the height of the old days of the Wasp ascendancy. Think of the Clintons and the Obamas. Interestingly, in the GOP field, I think Cruz is the only one who is a product of the elite system! Even Jeb bush went to UTex!


On this, I think Brewster said it best. Regardless of your undergrad or grad program, ultimately you will succeed or fail based on skills, smarts and drive. The school connections may get you access, interviews and maybe even in through the door, but mediocrity will not get you far, even when connected. I have seen lots of people from Ivy backgrounds do well for short periods of time, only to end up doing poorly overall. In some corporate environments, the ability to survive cutthroat competition is the one skill that sets otherwise similarly skilled people aside. That is true of Big Law and Wall Street firms. I have seen more broken people in those environments than I care to remember.

Statistically, anyone attending an Ivy for a humanities or liberal arts undergrad degree is likely going to end up with a pile of debt that they will come to regret. Prospects for high income are slim, and that debt load will limit your possibilities in life. Even some STEM careers can be fraught with relatively low pay given the amount of money and time one must invest to reach employability. Still, the smart money and career move is to go into STEM and/or business school. Even freshly minted lawyers are now facing a dearth of jobs and huge debt loads.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 17:13
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Yea, it's a different issue. I should concede, however, that it is true, nonetheless, that the connections and prestige of these places seems to open more doors than ever. The "meritocracy" appears to be more of a closed system than at the height of the old days of the Wasp ascendancy. Think of the Clintons and the Obamas. Interestingly, in the GOP field, I think Cruz is the only one who is a product of the elite system! Even Jeb bush went to UTex!

Posted on: 2015/12/30 16:35
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Anyway, the elite colleges are a terrible threat to being educated and literate in our culture. The sciences are still excellent- but forget about any social science or humanity. I barely survived my experience at these places in the 1980s. Allen Bloom's Closing of the American Mind is really the definitive description of the collapse of American education and was written in 1987. There were some signs that things were correcting themselves- and then it got so much worse. The original campus revolts in the 1960s by Mark Rudd and SDS and their professorial coconspirators was tragedy, if one gives it the benefit of the doubt. Today, the SJW (Social Justice Warriors, etc) and their professorial and administration conspirators are farce (to paraphrase Marx) Still, I thought, all things being equal, they do provide kids with options so I encouraged my oldest son to go. The admissions process was even more of a smoke and mirrors game than I remembered. He got in and then proceeded to drink the campus cool aid and has not had an independent thought since. Maybe I should encourage my youngest son to just go to Rutgers- or better yet to get a job on the JCFD.


That's a different issue entirely but I agree - these days it is STEM or business school. Anything related to liberal arts, social sciences, humanities, etc. is more about indoctrination than education.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 15:56
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Anyway, the elite colleges are a terrible threat to being educated and literate in our culture. The sciences are still excellent- but forget about any social science or humanity. I barely survived my experience at these places in the 1980s. Allen Bloom's Closing of the American Mind is really the definitive description of the collapse of American education and was written in 1987. There were some signs that things were correcting themselves- and then it got so much worse. The original campus revolts in the 1960s by Mark Rudd and SDS and their professorial coconspirators was tragedy, if one gives it the benefit of the doubt. Today, the SJW (Social Justice Warriors, etc) and their professorial and administration conspirators are farce (to paraphrase Marx) Still, I thought, all things being equal, they do provide kids with options so I encouraged my oldest son to go. The admissions process was even more of a smoke and mirrors game than I remembered. He got in and then proceeded to drink the campus cool aid and has not had an independent thought since. Maybe I should encourage my youngest son to just go to Rutgers- or better yet to get a job on the JCFD.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 15:30
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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For what it's worth I attended notable undergraduate and graduate schools and in my undergrad, I met a group of white people who actually came from underprivileged backgrounds (not Appalachia but single working class moms in Ohio, Washington and Alaska). What's interesting is that they didn't have or exhibit the stewing resentment that is apparent here. Also I never met so many black kids in one setting who came from money (both parents doctors or dad a notable executive mentioned in magazines...think Olivia Pope's upbringing if it were real life) and I would hasten to add that their credentials were impeccable and not " crappy" as contended here. There were a smattering of students who I felt shouldn't have gotten in (white and black alike) and I attributed that to the ability to pay full freight. The difference is that the mediocre white student is given the benefit of the doubt in belonging or being competent and worthy and sort of flies under the radar and no palpable resentment detected


I think you're trying to pretend that there's minimal difference and that ultimately the black kids and the white kids and the Asian kids were all about equivalent except a few that were not and this was distributed across all races. Statistically, that would be extremely unlikely, unless you were at a school without affirmative action.

You can see the statistics here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmat ... against_Asians_and_whites

In particular, note the following: "After controlling for grades, test scores, family background (legacy status), and athletic status (whether or not the student was a recruited athlete), Espenshade and Radford found that whites were three times, Hispanics six times, and blacks more than 15 times as likely to be accepted at a US university as Asian Americans."

At any rate, I am not surprised that people from the working class poor that find themselves at good institutions have little understanding of affirmative action. Their expectations growing up were entirely different and they were likely taught that they should work to get a job at the factory, just like dad and granddad. Getting into a top college or grad school was likely a surprised to most. However, those who were raised from childhood to strive for success and who have spent considerable time, energy and financial resources to obtain their elite college/grad school admissions have likely come across during their research the effects of AA. And if you are Asian and learn that the white kid next to you was 3x more likely to get in, that the hispanic kid was 6x more likely and the black kid was all of 15x more likely and that you just had to work THAT much harder - you're not going to be happy and you're not going to think that this is remotely fair.

But I do ultimately agree with you, VV, that AA does result in black students not being given the benefit of the doubt and people basically assuming that they got in on an easier track. Thing is, statistically, there's a reasonable chance that the assumption is correct. If it isn't, then why have AA? And what happened in states where AA was banned?

Posted on: 2015/12/30 5:03
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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I don't mind athletes (who, I note are mostly black) getting preference. They get preference because they have a unique talent that has value to the school. Alumni (Legacy)/Donors are a touchy subject but really have little to do with public high school admission. All of that is significantly more justifiable than "we give preference just because someone is X race."


Only if you think that sports teams and fundraising from wealthy alumni is more important than a diverse student body. Even if they are, such preferences are antithetical to worshiping on the altar of "meritocracy" that affirmative action opponents often proclaim to do.


I admittedly place absolutely zero value on diversity for diversity's sake. So yes, I would say athletics and wealthy alumni is far more valuable.

The meritocracy argument is fair, but I note athletic achievement is inherently merit-based and the legacy preference absolutely needs to be kept in check (you can't be admitting unqualified people simply due to legacy status). What is truly irredeemable, however, is simply admitting crappier people based on their race.


As with the legacies, we do not have to admit "crappier" people. We can admit people who are qualified and will contribute to the goals of the university even if they filled out a few bubbles incorrectly.

My first day of law school, we had a welcome speech by the dean. He said that our class was the strongest, most accomplished class ever admitted.

He then said that he could have turned each one of us down, admitted the next group of applicants just behind us, and told them the exact same thing.


Now you're just equivocating. "Oh, as long as they're REASONABLY smart it is GOOD ENOUGH." No, there are admissions criteria and you're supposed to choose people that *best* fit them. That also results in the most fairness - if you can consistently deliver "the right bubbles" then you end up with say, a higher SAT/GMAT/LSAT score or a higher GPA. That's how life works, except when demand for social engineering comes in and it becomes political, so rules need to be bent. Suddenly, your skin color means more than the criteria. That is what I object to.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 4:51
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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For what it's worth I attended notable undergraduate and graduate schools and in my undergrad, I met a group of white people who actually came from underprivileged backgrounds (not Appalachia but single working class moms in Ohio, Washington and Alaska). What's interesting is that they didn't have or exhibit the stewing resentment that is apparent here. Also I never met so many black kids in one setting who came from money (both parents doctors or dad a notable executive mentioned in magazines...think Olivia Pope's upbringing if it were real life) and I would hasten to add that their credentials were impeccable and not " crappy" as contended here. There were a smattering of students who I felt shouldn't have gotten in (white and black alike) and I attributed that to the ability to pay full freight. The difference is that the mediocre white student is given the benefit of the doubt in belonging or being competent and worthy and sort of flies under the radar and no palpable resentment detected

Posted on: 2015/12/30 3:00
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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JPhurst wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:


I don't mind athletes (who, I note are mostly black) getting preference. They get preference because they have a unique talent that has value to the school. Alumni (Legacy)/Donors are a touchy subject but really have little to do with public high school admission. All of that is significantly more justifiable than "we give preference just because someone is X race."


Only if you think that sports teams and fundraising from wealthy alumni is more important than a diverse student body. Even if they are, such preferences are antithetical to worshiping on the altar of "meritocracy" that affirmative action opponents often proclaim to do.


I admittedly place absolutely zero value on diversity for diversity's sake. So yes, I would say athletics and wealthy alumni is far more valuable.

The meritocracy argument is fair, but I note athletic achievement is inherently merit-based and the legacy preference absolutely needs to be kept in check (you can't be admitting unqualified people simply due to legacy status). What is truly irredeemable, however, is simply admitting crappier people based on their race.


As with the legacies, we do not have to admit "crappier" people. We can admit people who are qualified and will contribute to the goals of the university even if they filled out a few bubbles incorrectly.

My first day of law school, we had a welcome speech by the dean. He said that our class was the strongest, most accomplished class ever admitted.

He then said that he could have turned each one of us down, admitted the next group of applicants just behind us, and told them the exact same thing.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 0:44
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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More people have complained about race being an issue who don't want to address the issue. It has always been an issue.

Posted on: 2015/12/30 0:42
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