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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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JPhurst wrote:
There is a focus on race and police brutality because race plays a role in police brutality. Yes, there are whites that have been victims. One can acknowledge that and also acknowledge that there is a specific racial component that must be addressed.

There is a "fixation" on race in this country because of the role race has played in this country. Much of the country operated on the backs of slaves. We fought a war over the issue. Among other things, we have had segregation in schools, discrimination in employment, redlining in housing, and people who still can't accept that the President is an American citizen.

I think this country has admirably addressed these problems at times. At other times not so much. The great promise of America is that we can acknowledge such matters and do the right thing. But race is still an issue in this country. Yes, so is class. Those issues are not mutually exclusive.


Interestingly, I note that race as an issue in this country has increased dramatically since Obama showed up. I don't think that is a coincidence. Not at all.

Of course, so much for the promises that the first black president would usher in a new post-racial America.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 23:24
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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I don't mind athletes (who, I note are mostly black) getting preference. They get preference because they have a unique talent that has value to the school. Alumni (Legacy)/Donors are a touchy subject but really have little to do with public high school admission. All of that is significantly more justifiable than "we give preference just because someone is X race."


Only if you think that sports teams and fundraising from wealthy alumni is more important than a diverse student body. Even if they are, such preferences are antithetical to worshiping on the altar of "meritocracy" that affirmative action opponents often proclaim to do.


I admittedly place absolutely zero value on diversity for diversity's sake. So yes, I would say athletics and wealthy alumni is far more valuable.

The meritocracy argument is fair, but I note athletic achievement is inherently merit-based and the legacy preference absolutely needs to be kept in check (you can't be admitting unqualified people simply due to legacy status). What is truly irredeemable, however, is simply admitting crappier people based on their race.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 23:22
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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So McNair has an admission system based on race and it is not disputed that to fill these quotas certain criteria are different for these racial groupings ?

Posted on: 2015/12/29 22:54
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I largely agree with you but what you attribute to "certain parties" (which I assume is a reference to Republicans),


The GOP is only the current keeper of that flame, it used to belong to Southern Democrats. It's a conservative "why should THEY get a hand up?" mentality, whatever the party. As for hood culture, what is there to say? At least no one gets called an oreo for trying to get A's at McNair.


Both sides are out to get votes, both cater to their rich donors, and neither truly cares about the self interest of their constituents.

But this is a digression from the original point (which your post just ignored) that an affirmative action system which gives preferences to Obama's daughters over poor white kids from Apalachia must be fixed. We can only hope the Supreme Court does the right thing.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 22:50
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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There is a focus on race and police brutality because race plays a role in police brutality. Yes, there are whites that have been victims. One can acknowledge that and also acknowledge that there is a specific racial component that must be addressed.

There is a "fixation" on race in this country because of the role race has played in this country. Much of the country operated on the backs of slaves. We fought a war over the issue. Among other things, we have had segregation in schools, discrimination in employment, redlining in housing, and people who still can't accept that the President is an American citizen.

I think this country has admirably addressed these problems at times. At other times not so much. The great promise of America is that we can acknowledge such matters and do the right thing. But race is still an issue in this country. Yes, so is class. Those issues are not mutually exclusive.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 22:47
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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I largely agree with you but what you attribute to "certain parties" (which I assume is a reference to Republicans),


The GOP is only the current keeper of that flame, it used to belong to Southern Democrats. It's a conservative "why should THEY get a hand up?" mentality, whatever the party. As for hood culture, what is there to say? At least no one gets called an oreo for trying to get A's at McNair.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 22:36
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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JCMan8 wrote:
I think many, including me, share your general opinion. There should be affirmative action based on economic background and upbringing. But not race.

It's ridiculous to have a system that will give preferences to Obama's daughters but not a poor white family from Appalachia.

Hopefully the Supreme Court finally abolishes this antiquated system for colleges, and affirmative action based on economic upbringing takes its place.


As I said upthread, I mostly agree with you. The difficulty with that approach is that as a nation we have a real problem focusing on class issues as separate from race issues. For at least 150 years, from the time of Irish and Eastern European emigration, certain parties have spent a lot of effort deliberately muddying these waters, getting poor whites to vote against their own self interest in order to keep down "those people". You can see it today in that every time there's an effort to empower the underclass it gets painted in racial terms even though there's usually more whites in that category through sheer demographics. If not that then it's "class warfare", as if the 1% isn't doing that 100% of the time.

Somebody upthread said something about homogeneity in manner and dress even if not in color. That's about class too. You can't act like you're from the hood and get accepted in the educated class.


I largely agree with you but what you attribute to "certain parties" (which I assume is a reference to Republicans), I attribute to human nature.

Look at Black Lives Matter, a group largely exclusively consisting of Democratic voters and embraced by the DNC. They would have a far easier time if they couched their message as general opposition to police brutality. And that they represented victims of all colors.

But they don't. Instead they are fixated on race, to the point where there are many stories of them actively excluding non-black supporters. The more their actions are reported on in detail (as opposed to a very general and vague headline), the more people are turned against them.

My point is I think people naturally fixate on race because it's one of the most obvious differences between people. And you don't need some nefarious plot by "certain parties" in order to get people to gravitate to it.

None of this excuses a system which gives preferences to Obama's daughters over poor white people from Appalachia. The sooner affirmative action gets fixed the better for society.

As to your "acting hood" point, I somewhat agree with it, but I think it's about having the necessary attitude to thrive in many settings which demand achievement and results. Necessary traits such as being cooperative and eager to please are usually entirely absent from someone who "acts like they're from the hood." This is why they aren't accepted, because they would never make it even if the government forced their inclusion.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 21:43
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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I know it is disappointing your child didn't get into Academic but just accept it and move on. The system that has made this gem in one of the worst school systems in the state should not change because your kid didn't make the cut. Even by 25%/25%/25%/25% your child was beat by 50 other people in the same situation.

I went to academic when they accepted 100 students per class. You think it's hard now lol.

PS) I have heard people here say certain kids going to Academic are not bright. I have news for you, many people's intelligence and talents are not immediately visible and high school students act out in different ways. It's sad that parents are passing judgement on "nice" children they have absolutely no clue about. Anyone that is in Academic has earned the seat.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 21:36
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JCMan8 wrote:
I think many, including me, share your general opinion. There should be affirmative action based on economic background and upbringing. But not race.

It's ridiculous to have a system that will give preferences to Obama's daughters but not a poor white family from Appalachia.

Hopefully the Supreme Court finally abolishes this antiquated system for colleges, and affirmative action based on economic upbringing takes its place.


As I said upthread, I mostly agree with you. The difficulty with that approach is that as a nation we have a real problem focusing on class issues as separate from race issues. For at least 150 years, from the time of Irish and Eastern European emigration, certain parties have spent a lot of effort deliberately muddying these waters, getting poor whites to vote against their own self interest in order to keep down "those people". You can see it today in that every time there's an effort to empower the underclass it gets painted in racial terms even though there's usually more whites in that category through sheer demographics. If not that then it's "class warfare", as if the 1% isn't doing that 100% of the time.

Somebody upthread said something about homogeneity in manner and dress even if not in color. That's about class too. You can't act like you're from the hood and get accepted in the educated class.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 21:30
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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in my opinion, if college was just about the highest test scores, then colleges would only be able science and engineering. there would be no liberal arts. if colleges are only about scores, then why have sports teams or fine arts programs.

still, i think preferences should probably take income and social background more into consideration than just race. i don't see why a minority who comes from an affluent family background and decided to goof in high school should get any type of preference (other than perhaps alumni) but i am 200% for someone who comes from the pits of camden or appalachia getting some type of preference


I think many, including me, share your general opinion. There should be affirmative action based on economic background and upbringing. But not race.

It's ridiculous to have a system that will give preferences to Obama's daughters but not a poor white family from Appalachia.

Hopefully the Supreme Court finally abolishes this antiquated system for colleges, and affirmative action based on economic upbringing takes its place.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 21:11
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in my opinion, if college was just about the highest test scores, then colleges would only be able science and engineering. there would be no liberal arts. if colleges are only about scores, then why have sports teams or fine arts programs.

still, i think preferences should probably take income and social background more into consideration than just race. i don't see why a minority who comes from an affluent family background and decided to goof in high school should get any type of preference (other than perhaps alumni) but i am 200% for someone who comes from the pits of camden or appalachia getting some type of preference

Posted on: 2015/12/29 20:18
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I think some of the trolls on here are trying to create a wedge issue and pit Asians against blacks and Latinos as the cause c?l?bre when a majority of Asians support affirmative action as many of the ones attending elite schools come from affluent families who can pay for things such as SAT prep (e.g. Kaplan, Kumon, etc.). Also, I have worked in corporate America for years. In many instances, there is a hidden bamboo ceiling for Asians, a pink ceiling for women (especially if they get on the mommy track), lavender ceiling for LGBT and a ceiling for blacks and Latinos. If anyone is getting undue preferential treatment from my observations, it's straight white men who help other straight white men to maintain the status quo. The last article documents at such so please kick rocks and spare us the diatribe of blacks and Latinos getting all this special treatment and advantages throughout life.

http://thinkprogress.org/education/20 ... ction-arguments-research/

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-ame ... ffirmative-action-n213976

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christo ... -action-ma_b_8829830.html

The interviewees in my study who were most angry about affirmative action were those who had relatively fewer marketable skills ? and were therefore most dependent on getting an inside edge for the best jobs. Whites who felt entitled to these positions believed that affirmative action was unfair because it blocked their own privileged access.

But interviewees? feelings about such policies betrayed the reality of their experience of them. I found these attitudes evident among my interviewees ? even though, among the 1,463 jobs they discussed with me, there were only two cases in which someone might have been passed over for a job because of affirmative action policies benefiting African-Americans.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... -black-unemployment/?_r=0

Posted on: 2015/12/29 19:39
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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I don't mind athletes (who, I note are mostly black) getting preference. They get preference because they have a unique talent that has value to the school. Alumni (Legacy)/Donors are a touchy subject but really have little to do with public high school admission. All of that is significantly more justifiable than "we give preference just because someone is X race."


Only if you think that sports teams and fundraising from wealthy alumni is more important than a diverse student body. Even if they are, such preferences are antithetical to worshiping on the altar of "meritocracy" that affirmative action opponents often proclaim to do.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 17:36
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The point is being lost here, the black and Hispanic students in Catholic Schools received the scholarships to schools that are difficult to enter. Getting into Regis, Notre Dame or Friends (Quaker School) is difficult but when you add scholarships that is a different story. These were bright students who competed with other bright students. I do not know why this does not happen in the public schools.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 17:33
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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A group of Asians sued Harvard for their affirmative action policy, claiming it was race based discrimination against Asians in favor of inferior groups.

I think they are right.

We will see what happens in court.

Racists say the darndest things!


You know what is racist? Telling well qualified Asians that if they were black (or even white at some schools) that they would accepted but because they're Asian they need to go to a crappier school.
i have no problem using racial quotas to achieve a diverse student body which is reflective of the wider community. people complain about racial preferences, but no complaints about preferences for children of wealthy donors or alumni or athletes. however, i think that admitted students need to be held to same rigorous standards. i remember that i was shocked when i went to college and found it out that some athletes from pretty well to do families were not only not that bright, but they were also getting generous financial support from the college.


I don't mind athletes (who, I note are mostly black) getting preference. They get preference because they have a unique talent that has value to the school. Alumni (Legacy)/Donors are a touchy subject but really have little to do with public high school admission. All of that is significantly more justifiable than "we give preference just because someone is X race."

Posted on: 2015/12/29 17:11
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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brewster wrote:


As for GPAs, I'm sure that Stuy like McNair actually has a multiplier on the transcript GPA to reflect the difficulty of the curriculum, something like 1.2 if I recall. So a 3.0 is transmitted as a 3.6.


When I went to HS in NYC we did not have multipliers for Honors or AP classes. It was reflected on the transcript that it was an Honors or AP class but there was no change in the overall GPA. But I did know students in suburban districts who did have a multiplier. Maybe it has since changed.


When I went to HS AP classes got an extra point added (this was exclusive to AP classes). So an A in an AP class is factored as a 5 and not a 4. Theoretically, one could end up with above a 4.0 GPA with this.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 17:08
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
A group of Asians sued Harvard for their affirmative action policy, claiming it was race based discrimination against Asians in favor of inferior groups.

I think they are right.

We will see what happens in court.

Racists say the darndest things!


You know what is racist? Telling well qualified Asians that if they were black (or even white at some schools) that they would accepted but because they're Asian they need to go to a crappier school.
i have no problem using racial quotas to achieve a diverse student body which is reflective of the wider community. people complain about racial preferences, but no complaints about preferences for children of wealthy donors or alumni or athletes. however, i think that admitted students need to be held to same rigorous standards. i remember that i was shocked when i went to college and found it out that some athletes from pretty well to do families were not only not that bright, but they were also getting generous financial support from the college.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 16:01
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Any educational institution that accepts any federal funds is subject to the anti-discrimination provisions in Title VI and Title IX of the Civil Rights Act. That constitutes almost every college and university in the country. How it applies to single sex institutions, institutions with a religious mission, or historically black colleges is a bit more complicated and nuanced.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 15:05
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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I wanted to log in last night to reply to some of the comments, but I can't access JC List at home or work now for some reason. Nothing has changed on either PC, and the only way I can see this site at all now is to turn off the wifi on my mobile devices and use the data plan. And all other websites seem to load just fine on my PCs and via wifi.

As a "model" Asian, I'm totally fine with efforts to diversify schools. I was totally fine with not getting into Harvard or Stanford, and I never viewed a disadvantaged student who got in with perhaps a lower GPA and SAT scores as someone who took my "rightful spot" at the school. If EVERY Asian kid who merely churned out the numbers could get into Harvard, there would no longer be anything special or elite about the school. I look at it this way: if admission to a top school has the transformative power to truly change someone's life, offer them the chance to break into the middle class and perhaps become a role model or leader in their community, I'm all for it. For the upper middle class Asian students who didn't get in, I don't think their lives will change that much. They will still go on to do well professionally and lead largely comfortable lives. Perhaps schools should aim for a mix of students from different economic backgrounds rather than explicit racial targets.

I suspect many Asian students who don't get into Harvard were like me - totally cool with it and perhaps a tad relieved because it meant some of the pressure might be off and you might get to be a more normal student. In many cases, getting into Harvard means more to the parents than the kids themselves. For these parents, it's not about what's best for their child, or what's good enough for them - it's all about "saving face" to relatives and friends. Also, I don't see much point in suing Harvard. As a private institution, aren't admissions standards pretty much at the school's discretion? It would be like suing Notre Dame because it "discriminates" against non-Catholics or Wellesley for gender discrimination.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 14:26
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Yvonne wrote:
I am always puzzled by this, I have taught for many years in the Catholic Schools and my best students were "minority students" by today's standards. They were the ones who won scholarships to Regis High or other private Catholic or other Christian Schools (Friends), I am talking full scholarships. Others were accepted to Stuyvesant Pubic High Schools which is difficult to enter. It was based on their scores not racial groups. I am saddened to see so many Catholic grammar schools close due to charter schools now opening. My students were able to compete. One thing I always tell parents do not push to have the child skip a grade, they would need that advantage taking high school entrance exams.


Good lord, the charters didn't close Catholic schools, changing demographics did. Additionally, the good ones like OLC are fine, crappy ones like Resurrection were closed. It's too bad the the poor public schools can't be closed as easily. But even decent ones like Prep are not an easy sell to top Catholic students, they offered a full scholarship to my son, presumably to bring up their academic record in order to balance their meatheads from the burbs.

I'll leave the low hanging (so to speak) typo fruit to more juvenile Listers......


Charter schools did not cause the closure of Catholic schools single handed but they have had some effect along the way. When the various ethnic Catholic groups left cities many Catholic schools reached out to black and Hispanic communities. Although they have to charge some tuition they have to charge an amount that a working class family can afford. It has always been hard to make the numbers work for those schools and with charters offering a free alternative it becomes even harder to find parents who are willing to come up with even the reduced tuition.

In Lafayette, Father Schiller oversaw the conversion of the Assumption/All Saints Catholic school to the Lena Edwards Charter School. The school can get more funding from the state than it could charge in tuition to the families that they served.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 14:19
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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As for GPAs, I'm sure that Stuy like McNair actually has a multiplier on the transcript GPA to reflect the difficulty of the curriculum, something like 1.2 if I recall. So a 3.0 is transmitted as a 3.6.


When I went to HS in NYC we did not have multipliers for Honors or AP classes. It was reflected on the transcript that it was an Honors or AP class but there was no change in the overall GPA. But I did know students in suburban districts who did have a multiplier. Maybe it has since changed.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 14:11
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Oh please. Spend time at elite colleges/grad schools/employers and you'll find a few things - 1) that there is remarkably little real diversity (everyone is expected to look the same, act the same, etc.), and 2) that to the extent there is any diversity there's massive self-segregation. Yet somehow, these elite places and their alumni do just fine.
...


Educational success is about individual performance and ability to afford a place at a top college/university.

Success in a corporation - or as an entrepreneur - is about harnessing diversity. Collective team intelligence and capability can always outstrip the individual. Corporations value diversity more than education institutions. Diversity has helped made America great.

Taking the rhetoric from you and Yvonne to the extreme - China and India would dominate global business. One reason they don't - is they don't have the US's expertise in diversity.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/art ... versity-makes-us-smarter/

Posted on: 2015/12/29 8:32
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Yvonne wrote:
Others were accepted to Stuyvesant Pubic High Schools which is difficult to enter. It was based on their scores not racial groups.


Majority of stuy's admission is based off test scores unlike this 25/25/25/25 nonsense. But they do also have some sort of exception system to let some kids in who otherwise didn't make the cut.

It's pretty obvious who they are, everyone knew - when you have 80-90 percent of the class scoring 90s on the tests in various classes, and always the same few kids who got 60s and 70s and have no clue what's going on in class. Look back now it's actually a disservice to those kids as their gpa is much lower than if in a normal hs, which in turn hurts their chances of getting into a good college.

I graduated from stuy in early 2000s not sure if they changed it after that.


There's some of that at McNair, according to my son, the kids who are clearly out of their depth. If they can avoid the AP's it's not so bad for them, but I think at least 1 is required. Actually, the only kid I know personally that had to leave surprised me when he got in, and he is white. Nice kid but just not one of the top students.

As for GPAs, I'm sure that Stuy like McNair actually has a multiplier on the transcript GPA to reflect the difficulty of the curriculum, something like 1.2 if I recall. So a 3.0 is transmitted as a 3.6.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 7:40
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Yvonne wrote:
Others were accepted to Stuyvesant Pubic High Schools which is difficult to enter. It was based on their scores not racial groups.


Majority of stuy's admission is based off test scores unlike this 25/25/25/25 nonsense. But they do also have some sort of exception system to let some kids in who otherwise didn't make the cut.

It's pretty obvious who they are, everyone knew - when you have 80-90 percent of the class scoring 90s on the tests in various classes, and always the same few kids who got 60s and 70s and have no clue what's going on in class. Look back now it's actually a disservice to those kids as their gpa is much lower than if in a normal hs, which in turn hurts their chances of getting into a good college.

I graduated from stuy in early 2000s not sure if they changed it after that.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 5:47
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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Yvonne wrote:
I am always puzzled by this, I have taught for many years in the Catholic Schools and my best students were "minority students" by today's standards. They were the ones who won scholarships to Regis High or other private Catholic or other Christian Schools (Friends), I am talking full scholarships. Others were accepted to Stuyvesant Pubic High Schools which is difficult to enter. It was based on their scores not racial groups. I am saddened to see so many Catholic grammar schools close due to charter schools now opening. My students were able to compete. One thing I always tell parents do not push to have the child skip a grade, they would need that advantage taking high school entrance exams.


Good lord, the charters didn't close Catholic schools, changing demographics did. Additionally, the good ones like OLC are fine, crappy ones like Resurrection were closed. It's too bad the the poor public schools can't be closed as easily. But even decent ones like Prep are not an easy sell to top Catholic students, they offered a full scholarship to my son, presumably to bring up their academic record in order to balance their meatheads from the burbs.

I'll leave the low hanging (so to speak) typo fruit to more juvenile Listers......

Posted on: 2015/12/29 5:25
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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I am always puzzled by this, I have taught for many years in the Catholic Schools and my best students were "minority students" by today's standards. They were the ones who won scholarships to Regis High or other private Catholic or other Christian Schools (Friends), I am talking full scholarships. Others were accepted to Stuyvesant Pubic High Schools which is difficult to enter. It was based on their scores not racial groups. I am saddened to see so many Catholic grammar schools close due to charter schools now opening. My students were able to compete. One thing I always tell parents do not push to have the child skip a grade, they would need that advantage taking high school entrance exams.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 4:24
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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AlexC wrote:
According to the numbers I found above and if they are close to accurate it looks like Asians are over-represented and Hispanics and Blacks under-represented.

To me this means they are actually accepting based on merit, no? I look at my daughter's sophomore class and it really looks like 50% are Asians.

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Adonis wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
I'm sorry that you don't want to see the top 25% of black students go to the best school we have.


I'm sorry you don't want the top 25% of white students go to the best school we have. I'm sorry you don't want the top 25% of all the students go to the best school we have period.

That's the problem with these liberals. They're all against racism unless it's detrimental to their favored race. Equality indeed.



At least to some degree. Doesn't seem to be as strict of a quota as some have suggested, which is a good thing.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 3:50
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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dtjcview wrote:
The comparison with sports team or corporation for that matter is wrong - teams and corporations set a minimum standard then pick the best fit for the team/company. They don't pick based purely on stats.


Fair, but they also don't pick based on race. If these kids were being picked because their scores were worse but they brought something else to the table then great - I have no issue with that. When what they bring to the table is merely their skin color/ethnicity then I have a problem.

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I don't see McNair being any different. The school itself has values and objectives for itself and for the kids of Jersey City. They value diversity over simple elitism. That education in diversity isn't found in textbooks nor exams - but is immensely valuable in our global multi-cultural society.


Oh please. Spend time at elite colleges/grad schools/employers and you'll find a few things - 1) that there is remarkably little real diversity (everyone is expected to look the same, act the same, etc.), and 2) that to the extent there is any diversity there's massive self-segregation. Yet somehow, these elite places and their alumni do just fine.

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As others have pointed out - there are good alternatives to McNair in JC, and a high-achiever doesn't suddenly become a failure because they don't get accepted at a single school.


No, but it is nevertheless problematic when the best school in the city is using race as a primary criteria of selection.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 3:48
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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As I understand it, they take the top 50 kids by score in each group for a freshman class of 200. I have heard that the PSAT is 60% of the score.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 2:03
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Re: McNair Academic High School - racial quota
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I would like to see how they do the math on how they divvy up the "classes". Of the four basic food groups I guess the first step would be to look at the applicant total then look at the group with the smallest amount based on the total amount accepted. Then accept the other three groups equal in population to the first. Merit could come thereafter.

Posted on: 2015/12/29 1:49
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