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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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JCGuys wrote:
...
What we should have is mandatory rolling revals to prevent these imbalances from forming in the first place.


Totally agree. My biggest disappointment with Fulop and the current admin - is that they haven't appeared to tackle any of the concerns over the reval - whether that's loss of value or people being forced out of their homes. No plans, no proposals, nothing.

Posted on: 2015/12/1 0:14
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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City requires x amount of dollars before reval
City requires x amount of dollars after reval

It is zero sum from that standpoint, but I can see downtown losing some value, or at least stop appreciating in value, as it becomes more expensive after the reval.

That's not justification for not doing a reval. What we should have is mandatory rolling revals to prevent these imbalances from forming in the first place.

Posted on: 2015/12/1 0:06
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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dtjcview wrote:
@Brewster - zero sum might extend to property values if JC was the only place on the planet where people buy property. Money can quite easily go elsewhere. And while overtaxed properties will certainly become more affordable - it doesn't mean they'll significantly appreciate in value if demand doesn't increase. As far as billions goes - there are ~1600 properties for sale on Trulia in 07302 at an average of $600k. 10k+ homes losing $100k in value isn't outrageous.


Read what Bodhipooh said, same as what I've said in this thread before, it's all about the monthly budget for most buyers. Lower taxes means more money available to spend on a mortgage. So after taxes drop, people will think they can snap up places that are cheap AND have low taxes, but given a steady demand, that leads to higher prices as people bid properties up.
...


Thanks Brewster - I can read. You and Bodhipooh believe value is a function of affordability to the average mortgagee. Is Greenville suddenly more desirable now tax rate has moved from 3% to 2%? I don't think any of us know. There wasn't a huge collapse in sales prices, nor a sell-off when taxes went up 80% or so under Healy. (I'll admit that's also a reasonable argument for an immediate reval).

All I'm suggesting is "taper" the change - than risk a shock that could take significant time to rebalance.

PS: I'm a big fan of seeing the reval happening. But the current admin hasn't given it much thought - other than kick the can down the road.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 23:55
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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dtjcview wrote:
@Brewster - zero sum might extend to property values if JC was the only place on the planet where people buy property. Money can quite easily go elsewhere. And while overtaxed properties will certainly become more affordable - it doesn't mean they'll significantly appreciate in value if demand doesn't increase. As far as billions goes - there are ~1600 properties for sale on Trulia in 07302 at an average of $600k. 10k+ homes losing $100k in value isn't outrageous.


Read what Bodhipooh said, same as what I've said in this thread before, it's all about the monthly budget for most buyers. Lower taxes means more money available to spend on a mortgage. So after taxes drop, people will think they can snap up places that are cheap AND have low taxes, but given a steady demand, that leads to higher prices as people bid properties up.

And I'm sure 2/3 of those 1600 properties for sale are in abated developments.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 22:53
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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@Brewster - zero sum might extend to property values if JC was the only place on the planet where people buy property. Money can quite easily go elsewhere. And while overtaxed properties will certainly become more affordable - it doesn't mean they'll significantly appreciate in value if demand doesn't increase. As far as billions goes - there are ~1600 properties for sale on Trulia in 07302 at an average of $600k. 10k+ homes losing $100k in value isn't outrageous.

@Bodhipooh - a standard reval resets assessed value = current market value immediately in the next tax year. My question was could that be staggered - hit the big outliers first year, then the rest over time? Potential drops in value isn't simply a question of buyer affordability. It's the entire balance of supply and demand. It's easy to see there could be a flood of motivated sellers which could take years to rebalance - for example a lot of the REIT sellers mightn't ever reinvest in JC.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 22:23
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Exactly,
If properties are overvalued due to low taxes then the reval should not bring the appraised value up to the current market value. If it does and values drop there will be thousands appealing their tax bill. I would like to know what the process will be and if Jersey City intends to fight this.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 21:36
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dtjcview wrote:
There is some truth to the fear that a sudden reval could wipe millions if not billions off property values. Property tax is a zero-sum game, but valuations are not.


You are incorrect. The zero sum extends to values. Undertaxed properties will fall in value, but the thousands of overtaxed properties will rise in value as their tax load drops.

And not billions. Think about it for a second, that would mean 10,000 properties losing $100k or more.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 21:01
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dtjcview wrote:
There is some truth to the fear that a sudden reval could wipe millions if not billions off property values. Property tax is a zero-sum game, but valuations are not. And if values plummet - the first thing people will do - is start appealing their taxes.

Is there a precedent for say a rolling reval - Top/bottom 10% first, next 10% and so on? That way we don't risk a sell-off.


I am not understanding this idea. There is no such thing as a "sudden reval" since inspecting each home will take some time. Probably close to a year, especially given that some residents are uncooperative. The people who are under assessed are (most likely) aware of that fact, and know (or, should know) that once the reval is completed they will get a tax hike, a huge one for those downtown sitting on properties paying under 1% in effective tax rate. If they don't want to, or can't, pay the updated taxes, they can sell. I suspect some people will sell, while others will swallow the new tax and choose to stay.

The talk of a drop in value, or sale price, stems from the math that most buyers have to do when considering a real estate purchase, not the actual valuations. In recent times, much of the DTJC real estate has sold for ever higher values because the comparatively low property taxes allow buyers to take on higher mortgages. In the end, each buyer has a "max" they can afford on a monthly basis. That max doesn't change based on what taxes are. If I can afford 5K on a monthly basis, that max will remain the same regardless of what happens with the reval. If am interested in a brownstone paying 10K per year ($833/month) that means I can afford a monthly mortgage of ~4.16K, which is about 900K. If the same brownstone was paying 20K, now I can only afford a monthly mortgage of ~3.33K, or about 720K. In the end, the market goes up or down based on the money available in it.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 20:28
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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There is some truth to the fear that a sudden reval could wipe millions if not billions off property values. Property tax is a zero-sum game, but valuations are not. And if values plummet - the first thing people will do - is start appealing their taxes.

Is there a precedent for say a rolling reval - Top/bottom 10% first, next 10% and so on? That way we don't risk a sell-off.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 19:32
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FYI, Jersey City's Coefficient of Deviation is the highest in New Jersey.

Towns are supposed to reassess when their coefficient of deviation exceeds 15%. There are only Of 560+ municipalities, there are only 27 that exceed 20% and only two that exceed 30%.

Jersey City's Coefficient of Deviation for 2015 is 39%.

http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/20 ... rty-taxes-are-states.html

Posted on: 2015/11/30 19:07
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SOS wrote:
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Why not give credit to the Jersey Journal since they gave you your information?

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... y.html#incart_2box_hudson


She actually gave it to me first. She was at court before I was this morning and emailed me that it was postponed.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 18:32
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Now there is no quote button, I knew there would be a reval down the road but the only way to soften the blow would be to stop the tax abatements give-away. That is the one thing I have been talking about. The other thing that made the reval worse in 1988, was the transfer of commercial taxes on homeowners. Commercial business including the Jersey Journal building received a major reduction in taxes.


It's a fallacy to look at the tax abated properties today and apply the standard property taxation rate then claim the different between the PILOT payment and the normal rate is loss revenue to the city. Much of the recent development would not exist and Jersey City would be a very different place. You've taken the position before that all the development would just happen anyway, which is illogical as well as a volition of basic laws of economics.

Each tax abatement is underwritten to figure out the PILOT amount. If there was no tax abatements made in Jersey City during last few decades, there would be no PILOT revenues. Additionally, much less would be collected in property taxes as many sites would remain vacant industrial wastelands.

Unfortunately, only when all of us pass away to the after life, when all truth is made know, will it be before you still see the error of your ways.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 18:16
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Yvonne wrote:
The reval court date has been post phoned, actually, it was slated to start early this year. The new date is now 2/16/16.


Why not give credit to the Jersey Journal since they gave you your information?

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... y.html#incart_2box_hudson

Posted on: 2015/11/30 17:58
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The reval court date has been post phoned, actually, it was slated to start early this year. The new date is now 2/16/16.

Posted on: 2015/11/30 15:21
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Now there is no quote button, I knew there would be a reval down the road but the only way to soften the blow would be to stop the tax abatements give-away. That is the one thing I have been talking about. The other thing that made the reval worse in 1988, was the transfer of commercial taxes on homeowners. Commercial business including the Jersey Journal building received a major reduction in taxes.

Posted on: 2015/11/25 22:42
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Yvonne wrote:
First, I never said to stop the reval, I spoke about what happened in 1988. I personally believe Fulop put off the reval so he would not get flak from his supporters once their taxes go up while he is giving 30 tax abatements. Second, when your taxes go up you are in a bind unless you have cash available. The normal thing is to do a tax appeal but in order to do a tax appeal you must pay the taxes first. That is the catch. People in 1988 were paying $2,000 to $3,000 in taxes and saw the bill go up to as much as $16,000, which was the amount I received. Those without the funds did not appeal and lost their homes, this in turn lead to Schundler asking Trenton to change the laws on the reserve on uncollected taxes. It became a vicious cycle. On the plus side, a friend I know brought a beautiful renovated home on Varick Street for $150,000. There was an abundance of homes for sale.


OMFG, Yvonne used the quote button!!

The reason we haven't had a reval in 27 years is that you and your ilk haven't stopped yapping for decades about how tragic it was, making it political untouchable. Which makes it potentially worse with each passing year, which makes it even more untouchable...you get the idea. You'd get far more credit here had you spent the last 3 decades campaigning for regularly occurring and fair revals instead of demonizing a needed fiscal function.

Posted on: 2015/11/25 22:35
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Yvonne wrote:
I truly feel sorry for you Brewster, in your attempt to smear me, you are clueless about what I stated. If you go any any city's budget, there is a line item always on sheet 3 called "Reserve for uncollected taxes." The state requires all taxes to be paid including people who fail to pay theirs. Let me give you an example - if ten people went to dinner and only 9 paid, the restaurant still would require a payment for 10th. That means the 9 who paid must cough up the money for the 10th person. Taxes are treated the same way, we the taxpayers must pay for taxpayers who do not pay their bills. Before, the bulk lien sale became law, every mayor had to place a reserve in the budget for taxpayers who do not pay. After the 1988 reval, that figure grew to around $30 million. To be honest, I don't recall the exact figure but it was around that or higher. Every $1.00 is $5 million to be raised.
By selling the tax bulk lien as a unit, Schundler was able to place that money in the budget instead of raising the funds from taxpayers. This is the reason, Schundler needed state law. He was able to cut taxes just using this method.
Honestly, I did not favor this law, because it only required six months behind in taxes before the city sold your lien. But it had an effect of wiping out the reserve required by taxpayers.
Interesting, I just check the last budget, Fulop did not do a tax lien and we the public put in close to ten million in reserve. When I checked Healy's budgets he had around $1.6 million in reserve. So I am now guessing Fulop is holding onto those properties as a special bundle for developers. I am not wrong. If you want to go after me, first learn the subject.


How does any of that contradict what I said, or have any relevance to the reval? This digression started with your claim that somehow this securitization made things worse for people already in tax arrears due to the 88 reval, and made them "lose their homes".

I don't even understand what it is you want. To stop the reval? that's insane. There's gross injustice going on right now, a very regressive situation where the wealthy are paying a far lower tax than the working class. Whatever jihad you have against PILOTS has nothing to do with the city needing a reval desperately. Could the rate come down if you got your way with abatements? possibly, but we'd still need to equalize assessments.


First, I never said to stop the reval, I spoke about what happened in 1988. I personally believe Fulop put off the reval so he would not get flak from his supporters once their taxes go up while he is giving 30 tax abatements. Second, when your taxes go up you are in a bind unless you have cash available. The normal thing is to do a tax appeal but in order to do a tax appeal you must pay the taxes first. That is the catch. People in 1988 were paying $2,000 to $3,000 in taxes and saw the bill go up to as much as $16,000, which was the amount I received. Those without the funds did not appeal and lost their homes, this in turn lead to Schundler asking Trenton to change the laws on the reserve on uncollected taxes. It became a vicious cycle. On the plus side, a friend I know brought a beautiful renovated home on Varick Street for $150,000. There was an abundance of homes for sale.

Posted on: 2015/11/25 21:53
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I truly feel sorry for you Brewster, in your attempt to smear me, you are clueless about what I stated. If you go any any city's budget, there is a line item always on sheet 3 called "Reserve for uncollected taxes." The state requires all taxes to be paid including people who fail to pay theirs. Let me give you an example - if ten people went to dinner and only 9 paid, the restaurant still would require a payment for 10th. That means the 9 who paid must cough up the money for the 10th person. Taxes are treated the same way, we the taxpayers must pay for taxpayers who do not pay their bills. Before, the bulk lien sale became law, every mayor had to place a reserve in the budget for taxpayers who do not pay. After the 1988 reval, that figure grew to around $30 million. To be honest, I don't recall the exact figure but it was around that or higher. Every $1.00 is $5 million to be raised.
By selling the tax bulk lien as a unit, Schundler was able to place that money in the budget instead of raising the funds from taxpayers. This is the reason, Schundler needed state law. He was able to cut taxes just using this method.
Honestly, I did not favor this law, because it only required six months behind in taxes before the city sold your lien. But it had an effect of wiping out the reserve required by taxpayers.
Interesting, I just check the last budget, Fulop did not do a tax lien and we the public put in close to ten million in reserve. When I checked Healy's budgets he had around $1.6 million in reserve. So I am now guessing Fulop is holding onto those properties as a special bundle for developers. I am not wrong. If you want to go after me, first learn the subject.


How does any of that contradict what I said, or have any relevance to the reval? This digression started with your claim that somehow this securitization made things worse for people already in tax arrears due to the 88 reval, and made them "lose their homes".

I don't even understand what it is you want. To stop the reval? that's insane. There's gross injustice going on right now, a very regressive situation where the wealthy are paying a far lower tax than the working class. Whatever jihad you have against PILOTS has nothing to do with the city needing a reval desperately. Could the rate come down if you got your way with abatements? possibly, but we'd still need to equalize assessments.

Posted on: 2015/11/25 20:23
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Interesting trying to tie together the recent threads of this discussion - why the reval is bad (for some); why the bulk sale of tax liens was bad (again, for some, allegedly); and why abatements are bad (ostensibly for all of us).

One recurring theme is the political hegemony of those for whom the system, while broken, seems to work well - long term residents who don't want to pay their fair share [sic] of taxes for now really valuable properties, and a city revitalized by the new blood the development has brought in; poor renters have low rents that result in property owners being unable to maintain or improve their properties or pay taxes on them. I can understand their resistance to having their situations disrupted, but the status quo is bad policy.

I struggle with how the abatements play into this scenario - yes, the tax levy is based on an artificially reduced rat-able base, but if the real tax rate is too low, why is it worse to recoup the money for the city's basic needs from another source?


Posted on: 2015/11/25 19:22
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I truly feel sorry for you Brewster, in your attempt to smear me, you are clueless about what I stated. If you go any any city's budget, there is a line item always on sheet 3 called "Reserve for uncollected taxes." The state requires all taxes to be paid including people who fail to pay theirs. Let me give you an example - if ten people went to dinner and only 9 paid, the restaurant still would require a payment for 10th. That means the 9 who paid must cough up the money for the 10th person. Taxes are treated the same way, we the taxpayers must pay for taxpayers who do not pay their bills. Before, the bulk lien sale became law, every mayor had to place a reserve in the budget for taxpayers who do not pay. After the 1988 reval, that figure grew to around $30 million. To be honest, I don't recall the exact figure but it was around that or higher. Every $1.00 is $5 million to be raised.
By selling the tax bulk lien as a unit, Schundler was able to place that money in the budget instead of raising the funds from taxpayers. This is the reason, Schundler needed state law. He was able to cut taxes just using this method.
Honestly, I did not favor this law, because it only required six months behind in taxes before the city sold your lien. But it had an effect of wiping out the reserve required by taxpayers.
Interesting, I just check the last budget, Fulop did not do a tax lien and we the public put in close to ten million in reserve. When I checked Healy's budgets he had around $1.6 million in reserve. So I am now guessing Fulop is holding onto those properties as a special bundle for developers. I am not wrong. If you want to go after me, first learn the subject.

Posted on: 2015/11/25 19:02
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Posted on: 2015/11/25 2:06
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So, not surprisingly at all, Yvonne has misrepresented the history of the lien issue. The only thing controversial at all, and that required state approval, was the securitization of the liens, rather than just selling them piecemeal as cities have done forever. Otherwise, it was just people who didn't pay their taxes had their property seized for a lien, if they still didn't pay, it gets sold and they get what's left over after creditors are done.

In fact, I've suggested a related plan as a way of helping out "house rich-cash poor" residents. The city would sell a bond based on their tax liens, those liens plus interest being collectable when the resident sells or dies, similar to a reverse mortgage.

NYTimes May 9, 1993

But the issue that has become the focus of much of the campaign is Mr. Schundler's novel plan to raise about $20 million in each of the next two years by bundling the city's tax liens and selling them to investors.

A bill authorizing Jersey City to use the technique passed both houses of the Legislature Thursday. Gov. Jim Florio had sent a previous bill back to the Legislature for amendments aimed at protecting tenants from eviction if the ownership of their apartment houses changed through the lien sales. He has promised to sign the amended bill. A Focus on Renters

Mr. Schundler said that besides the lien sale, the city was trying to reduce tax rates by improving tax collections. At present, the city collects only about 80 percent of the taxes owed by property owners.

Mr. Manzo calls the Mayor's plan a "pie in the sky" and has tried to capitalize on fears about evictions among the city's high percentage of renters. Campaign flyers tell voters the Mayor has an "eviction hit list" of 26,000 renters on his desk and say they had better pack their bags if Mr. Schundler is re-elected.

Mr. Schundler said the Manzo campaign "has taken a bonehead assumption as fact, and is promoting fantastic flights of fancy."

Raymond Lesniak, the New Jersey Democratic Chairman, said he had been lending "moral support" to the Manzo campaign and echoed criticism of the proposed lien sale. Accusations on Assets

"The Mayor wants to sell off city assets at a bargain, and this represents a danger to future revenues," he said. "Ever since trading in junk bonds ended with the collapse of the savings and loans, traders have been looking for some new product and they're tripping over themselves to make a killing at the expense of the people of Jersey City."

Mr. Schundler said he worried about a tactic that surfaced at the end of the 1985 mayoral election, when tenants' fears about eviction also were plumbed for political advantage. A few days before that election, phony eviction notices were shoved under the doors of nervous tenants by one of the campaigns, which helped lead to the incumbent mayor's defeat.

So one of the last Schundler campaign mailers will tell voters to ignore such notices if they see them right before the election.

Posted on: 2015/11/24 23:53
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Jersey City mayor halted reval to shield Downtown from tax hikes, firm alleges

By Terrence T. McDonald | The Jersey Journal
November 24, 2015 at 4:08 PM

JERSEY CITY — "Downtown property owners have the most to fear from a revaluation."

Those are the words of Neil Rubenstein, the man who co-owns the company hired to perform Jersey City's tax reval in 2011 before Mayor Steve Fulop halted all work in 2013 and refused to pay the company any more money.

Rubenstein's thoughts about how the reval would affect Downtown property owners are included in dozens of documents submitted to Hudson County Superior Court by attorneys for the reval firm, Realty Appraisal Co., and for lawyers representing Jersey City in Realty Appraisal's civil action against the city. The trial is expected to begin Monday.

Read more:  http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... owntown_firm_alleges.html


Posted on: 2015/11/24 22:39
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Yvonne wrote:
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This story was so big, the selling of liens, that I conclude you are a newbie who did not live here during that period of time. Fulop's supporters are such phonies.


No one doubts liens were sold, that happens all the time as a normal matter of city business. We're disputing the story about "people losing their homes" as a result of the reval. If they did they were underwater and they had no equity in their property, and therefore didn't own squat, the bank did. That doesn't describe typical longtime residents.

FYI, when a property is seized and sold to satisfy a lien, the city and lienholder don't get the whole value, they get what they're owed and the owner (or bank) gets the rest. But that doesn't sound as apocalyptic as "people lost their homes!!"


Again, you are wrong because you probably was not around then. This took state legislation to do this because it was not done before. Governor Florio gave the OK to have this done. The city had thousands of property on its hands with unpaid taxes, most the result of the 1988 reval. I remember when this was done. I was there when this was discussed at council meetings and the Jersey Jersey wrote articles on this. Unfortunately, the paper was not online then. But I am sure if you go the the newspaper's morgue, you could find the old articles.

Posted on: 2015/11/24 21:30
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Yvonne wrote:
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This story was so big, the selling of liens, that I conclude you are a newbie who did not live here during that period of time. Fulop's supporters are such phonies.


No one doubts liens were sold, that happens all the time as a normal matter of city business. We're disputing the story about "people losing their homes" as a result of the reval. If they did they were underwater and they had no equity in their property, and therefore didn't own squat, the bank did. That doesn't describe typical longtime residents.

FYI, when a property is seized and sold to satisfy a lien, the city and lienholder don't get the whole value, they get what they're owed and the owner (or bank) gets the rest. But that doesn't sound as apocalyptic as "people lost their homes!!"

Posted on: 2015/11/24 21:21
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Posted on: 2015/11/24 21:07
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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It's a long string of unsubstantiated BS. The other point indicates you do it all the time and expect us to believe you are credible.

And I was already 20 in 1988, and living in Jersey City all my life. I had not even gone away to grad school yet.

Condescending loudmouth. Prove your BS when called on it.

Posted on: 2015/11/24 20:56
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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papadage wrote:
Just pointing out that you are a lazy loudmouth. You also claimed there were real news stories of Muslims celebrating 9/11. Your track record is suspect.

And for your information, you old bag, I lived here all my life. I was born in Christ Hospital, went to PS11 and Prep, and was in the pilot classes for both the G&T program and then the first AEP class. I do not need to prove my bona fides to a crank.

You made the affirmative statement. Prove it.



You are too lazy to prove your point so now you are bring up other issues. No, I don't back away from what my neighbor said concerning 9/11, others said the same thing, too. Returning to the subject, you were not around in 1988 when the reval happened yet you insist you know everything. Stop being lazy and do some research, it is now easy with OPRA. Personally, I think you are afraid to do research because then it would prove I am right.

Posted on: 2015/11/24 20:42
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just pointing out that you are a lazy loudmouth. You also claimed there were real news stories of Muslims celebrating 9/11. Your track record is suspect.

And for your information, you old bag, I lived here all my life. I was born in Christ Hospital, went to PS11 and Prep, and was in the pilot classes for both the G&T program and then the first AEP class. I do not need to prove my bona fides to a crank.

You made the affirmative statement. Prove it.


Posted on: 2015/11/24 20:11
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