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Re: Bike Share System
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Sure I think we all know what salmoning is. But the quote was : ?Before we have a bike share program, we should teach people not to ride bikes on the opposite side of the street,? said Councilman Richard Boggiano."
You are probably right, he probably meant "riding in the wrong direction of the traffic flow" or even "riding against traffic" He couldn't articulate this simple idea for some reason but his tone suggests he is against the bike share system. I have a problem with the way Boggoano came out against the red light cameras and now apparently is posturing against the bike program. He should remember that his constituents don't all own automobiles, yet we still have a right to cross streets at the light in safety and we have the right to ride bicycles. I'm really disappointed in him.

Posted on: 2015/1/8 23:39
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JerseyCityFrankie wrote:
Boy I hope this works, it would be great for my quality of life! Also, what did old man Bogiano mean when he said he didn't want cyclist on "the opposite side of the street"? Opposite from what?


Riding against the flow of traffic, also knowing as "salmoning." Teaching people not to do this is about as effective as teaching people to pick up after their dogs.

Posted on: 2015/1/8 17:38
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Boy I hope this works, it would be great for my quality of life! Also, what did old man Bogiano mean when he said he didn't want cyclist on "the opposite side of the street"? Opposite from what?

Posted on: 2015/1/8 0:38
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Jersey City one step closer to launching bike-share program with NYC; annual membership estimated at $150

By Patrick McGovern | The Jersey Journal
January 07, 2015 at 5:28 PM

Jersey City is now one step closer to launching a bike-share program that will allow members to use New York City?s Citi Bike system, after the program was approved by the City Council Monday.

Brooklyn-based Alta Bicycle Share, which operates the Citi Bike system, was the sole bidder and was awarded the contract to work with the city. The city council voted 8-0 to award the contract to Alta.

City officials said pricing for the Jersey City bike share program will be similar to New York's 6,000-bike Citi Bike system, where an annual membership is $149. Jersey City will start off with approximately 350 bikes and 35 docking stations, with the potential to expand, officials said. Under the agreement Jersey City bike share members can use Citi Bike bicycles.

The Jersey City program will be funded by corporate sponsorship and will come at no cost to taxpayers, officials said.

Read more:
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... f_bike_share_program.html

Posted on: 2015/1/7 22:45
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Posted on: 2015/1/7 21:46
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Jersey City council members award contract for bike share program

By Patrick McGovern | The Jersey Journal
on January 05, 2015 at 10:26 PM

At tonight?s brief Jersey City City Council meeting, members voted on three resolutions ? a 2015 temporary budget, a 2015 Cash Management Plan, and an authorization of the award of a contract to Jersey City Bikeshare, LLC to create a bike share program in Jersey City.

The first two resolutions passed unanimously without discussion, the bike share program, however, brought up some reservations among council members.

?Before we have a bike share program, we should teach people not to ride bikes on the opposite side of the street,? said Councilman Richard Boggiano.

Councilman Michael Yun spoke about wanting to make the bike share program not just between Jersey City and New York City, but one involving more Hudson County communities.

Read more:
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... r_bike_share_program.html

Posted on: 2015/1/6 6:50
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Monroe wrote:
OK, let's get this straight-I'm not opposed to bike sharing programs, I just don't want to pay for it with higher taxes.

...


I was talking about alternatives/competing approaches to bike sharing - mostly was about private sector sponsorship and tax reduction. Think the tea party gets it. Surprised you and fuckwits like Bohdipooh don't. Hmmm....maybe not.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 21:56
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OK, let's get this straight-I'm not opposed to bike sharing programs, I just don't want to pay for it with higher taxes.

Find a way to get it funded by private contributions, great.

Asking suburban taxpayers to subsidize bike programs that benefit a tiny number of NJ residents, it simply won't happen. If Fulop wants to raise JC taxes to fund it, enjoy! Don't expect Trenton to give you a dime.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 21:48
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One of the drivers for the push for more bikes is that they reduce pollution from cars.

Given that cars now are emitting far less pollutants than ever before, and as new technologies come out and older cars get recycled, we can expect that to far outweigh any incremental increase in bike versus car usage.

That's why cars will continue to be the preferred method of transportation.

And saying 'a high percentage of people don't own cars' is silly. In the context to bike sharing, people who work overwhelmingly do own cars. Not a lot of mass transit from suburb to suburb, or across the great breadth of this land. Every mpg increase of 1 mpg likely covers what benefit of bike riding does for the environment over years and years.

Now, as a daily recreational bike rider during fair months, I totally agree with the health benefits.


JC is becoming more like NYC and less like Millburn/Short Hills. You'd know that if you lived here and your name wasn't "Yvonne".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_in_New_York_City

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Mass transit use and car ownership[edit]

Crowds on an F subway train on a Sunday afternoon.
New York City is distinguished from other U.S. cities for its low personal automobile ownership and its significant use of public transportation. New York City has, by far, the highest rate of public transportation use of any American city, with 54.2% of workers commuting to work by this means in 2006.[4] About one in every three users of mass transit in the United States and two-thirds of the nation's rail riders live in New York City or its suburbs.[5] New York is the only city in the United States where over half of all households do not own a car (Manhattan's non-ownership is even higher - around 75%; nationally, the rate is 8%).[6]


Percentage of workers using public transportation for their commute and the mean travel time for major cities in the United States in 2006.
New York City also has the longest mean travel time for commuters (39 minutes) among major U.S. cities.[4]

Environmental and social issues[edit]
New York City's uniquely high rate of public transit use makes it one of the most energy-efficient cities in the United States. Gasoline consumption in the city today is at the rate of the national average in the 1920s.[7] New York City's high rate of transit use saved 1.8 billion US gallons (6,800,000 m3) of oil in 2006 and $4.6 billion in gasoline costs. New York saves half of all the oil saved by transit nationwide.

The reduction in oil consumption meant 11.8 million metric tons of carbon dioxide pollution was kept out of the air.[8] The New York City metro area was ranked by the Brookings Institution as the U.S. metro area with the lowest per-capita transportation-related carbon footprint and as the fourth lowest overall per-capita carbon footprint in 2005 among the 100 largest metro areas of the United States, outranked only by Honolulu, Los Angeles and Portland.[9]

The city's transportation system, and the population density it makes possible, also have other effects. Scientists at Columbia University examined data from 13,102 adults in the city's five boroughs and identified correlations between New York's built environment and public health. New Yorkers residing in densely populated, pedestrian-friendly areas have significantly lower body mass index (BMI) levels compared to other New Yorkers. Three characteristics of the city environment?living in areas with mixed residential and commercial uses, living near bus and subway stops and living in population-dense areas?were found to be inversely associated with BMI levels.[10]

See also: Environmental issues in New York City
Commuting/modal split[edit]

The Verrazano-Narrows Bridge links the boroughs of Brooklyn and Staten Island.
Of all people who commute to work in New York City, 41% use the subway, 24% drive alone, 12% take the bus, 10% walk to work, 2% travel by commuter rail, 5% carpool, 1% use a taxi, 0.6% ride their bicycle to work, and 0.2% travel by ferry.[11] 54% of households in New York City do not own a car, and rely on public transportation.[12] While the so-called car culture dominates in most American cities, mass transit has a defining influence on New York life.


and http://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars



Posted on: 2014/12/26 21:34
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95% of American households own a car, and 85% of people commute by car.

I'd like to know how many commute by bike, and how high that could go up if bike share programs advance.

Luckily, government driven mandates mean that cars not only are using much less gasoline than before, but advanced engineering and materials mean that cars are lighter-although the trend to luxobarge SUV's is slowing that somewhat. But when Ford shaves 700 pounds off the most popular vehicle in their fleet it's a sign of more to come.

So emissions are steadily dropping, mpg going up, cars weighing less all point to less damage to the planet and to the roads the cars use.

And since electric cars get a lot of electricity from coal plants, and who knows what damage their batteries will do to landfills, they aren't a perfect solution either.



This ain't America, it's Jersey Flippin City!! Of course, rates of car ownership and car commuting are significantly lower here; as noted, 41 percent of households don't own motor vehicles. (Also, if you ask a survey question about how a JC resident "primarily" gets to work, as seems to be the common format, they will often say PATH train, but that leaves out their bike rides to and from the PATH station.)

All that is even more true in NYC, which has steadily improving bike infrastructure as well as Citi Bike, and there's no reason to think those factors won't help here. We can't know for sure until we try.

It's great that private cars and trucks are getting cleaner and lighter. They're still exponentially dirtier and heavier than biking and walking, even when they're electric. And they take up more road space. And carve up neighborhoods psychologically. And regularly crush people like grapes. And encourage sedentary living and its ills. And so on.

When cars weigh 25 pounds and run on sunshine and stop killing people and stuff, lemme know, and I'll stop trying to limit their use in our crowded urban streets. Till then, let's try the alternatives.

Again I plead with everyone on jclist: Let's be known for being sharp and critical and snarky about the existing serious problems we need to solve, rather than being pre-emptively sharp and critical about the potential solutions we haven't even tried yet.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 21:30

Edited by elsquid on 2014/12/26 21:51:16
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One of the drivers for the push for more bikes is that they reduce pollution from cars.

Given that cars now are emitting far less pollutants than ever before, and as new technologies come out and older cars get recycled, we can expect that to far outweigh any incremental increase in bike versus car usage.

That's why cars will continue to be the preferred method of transportation.

And saying 'a high percentage of people don't own cars' is silly. In the context to bike sharing, people who work overwhelmingly do own cars. Not a lot of mass transit from suburb to suburb, or across the great breadth of this land. Every mpg increase of 1 mpg likely covers what benefit of bike riding does for the environment over years and years.

Now, as a daily recreational bike rider during fair months, I totally agree with the health benefits.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 21:17
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Monroe wrote:
Didn't you just write this? Yes, infants don't own cars. But given that 85% of people commute by car, and that 95% of households own at least one car . . . well, you get the idea.

when a high percentage of people don't own cars.

Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
95% of American households own a car, and 85% of people commute by car.

I'd like to know how many commute by bike, and how high that could go up if bike share programs advance.

Luckily, government driven mandates mean that cars not only are using much less gasoline than before, but advanced engineering and materials mean that cars are lighter-although the trend to luxobarge SUV's is slowing that somewhat. But when Ford shaves 700 pounds off the most popular vehicle in their fleet it's a sign of more to come.

So emissions are steadily dropping, mpg going up, cars weighing less all point to less damage to the planet and to the roads the cars use.

And since electric cars get a lot of electricity from coal plants, and who knows what damage their batteries will do to landfills, they aren't a perfect solution either.



Near 100% of households own a TV. And nearly everyone has shoes. I don't get your point.


Nope. My telepathy is broken. Still missed your point.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 21:10
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Didn't you just write this? Yes, infants don't own cars. But given that 85% of people commute by car, and that 95% of households own at least one car . . . well, you get the idea.

when a high percentage of people don't own cars.

Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
95% of American households own a car, and 85% of people commute by car.

I'd like to know how many commute by bike, and how high that could go up if bike share programs advance.

Luckily, government driven mandates mean that cars not only are using much less gasoline than before, but advanced engineering and materials mean that cars are lighter-although the trend to luxobarge SUV's is slowing that somewhat. But when Ford shaves 700 pounds off the most popular vehicle in their fleet it's a sign of more to come.

So emissions are steadily dropping, mpg going up, cars weighing less all point to less damage to the planet and to the roads the cars use.

And since electric cars get a lot of electricity from coal plants, and who knows what damage their batteries will do to landfills, they aren't a perfect solution either.



Near 100% of households own a TV. And nearly everyone has shoes. I don't get your point.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 21:04
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Monroe wrote:
95% of American households own a car, and 85% of people commute by car.

I'd like to know how many commute by bike, and how high that could go up if bike share programs advance.

Luckily, government driven mandates mean that cars not only are using much less gasoline than before, but advanced engineering and materials mean that cars are lighter-although the trend to luxobarge SUV's is slowing that somewhat. But when Ford shaves 700 pounds off the most popular vehicle in their fleet it's a sign of more to come.

So emissions are steadily dropping, mpg going up, cars weighing less all point to less damage to the planet and to the roads the cars use.

And since electric cars get a lot of electricity from coal plants, and who knows what damage their batteries will do to landfills, they aren't a perfect solution either.



Near 100% of households own a TV. And nearly everyone has shoes. I don't get your point.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 20:59
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95% of American households own a car, and 85% of people commute by car.

I'd like to know how many commute by bike, and how high that could go up if bike share programs advance.

Luckily, government driven mandates mean that cars not only are using much less gasoline than before, but advanced engineering and materials mean that cars are lighter-although the trend to luxobarge SUV's is slowing that somewhat. But when Ford shaves 700 pounds off the most popular vehicle in their fleet it's a sign of more to come.

So emissions are steadily dropping, mpg going up, cars weighing less all point to less damage to the planet and to the roads the cars use.

And since electric cars get a lot of electricity from coal plants, and who knows what damage their batteries will do to landfills, they aren't a perfect solution either.


Posted on: 2014/12/26 20:54
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elsquid wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
We should also be lobbying ways that put bikes into the hands of a many people as possible. The best way would be to make all bikes and bicycle gear tax-deductible at a state or federal level.

There must be similar things that can be done at a local level like getting corporate sponsorship to hand out bike gift cards to high school grads and low-income families...the City/County returning some budget surplus in the form of bike vouchers to property tax payers...


Wow... More leftist crap about giving things away without expecting people to earn them or do anything to carve a living for themselves. Have we forgotten the most basic of notions that a man (or, woman) can and will derive pleasure and satisfaction from the fruits of his or her labor? I can see making a case for some tax relief to encourage a behavior, as suggested at first, but the idea that cities should give away bicycles is just asinine. The problem with idealists is that they only delve in ideas, never bothering with reality. Give out bike vouchers for paying your property taxes? What happens after a year or two? You get to keep a bike collection? After 10 years? And, what happens after a bicycle handed out by the government breaks down? Who is going to pay to fix it? Because I guarantee you that people that get a free bike will expect free maintenance and repairs for life... Why, you ask? Because they never had to pay for it and don't understand that things cost money and through misguided governmental policies we have decoupled personal responsibility and self esteem from the person and their actions, instead fostering a culture of entitlement.


It's fair to be skeptical of government giveaways of anything; you pay taxes and want the money spent wisely. I agree that things received totally free are often undervalued by the recipients; often a partial subsidy is better. I also think it would be best if private organizations do more to put bikes under butts in Jersey City, as the excellent Newark Bike Exchange does in Newark, and I may have some further thoughts on that in the months to come.

BUT: You are, like so many people, holding bikes to one standard of free-market rigor while not holding motor vehicles to the same standard.

Why is it OK to pay looooooots of our tax dollars to bus public school kids to and from school, and to build and maintain roads and parking lots etc. around those schools so their parents can drive them, all causing more pollution, traffic, road carnage, childhood obesity, etc.--but terrible leftist crap to give kids (or maybe just kids from low-income families) a bicycle and tell them to ride to school like I did?

The city and the school district also already spend lots of your money to give kids (and adults) access to exercise and recreation, via public sports fields, parks, school sports teams, municipal sports and exercise programs, usually free or heavily subsidized, so why would it be crazy to give a low-income kid a bike to promote exercise and wholesome recreation? How is that so different?

If it's OK to give low-income people aid for food, housing, etc., why not cheap transportation (which tends to make it easier for them to get jobs, or better jobs)?

Why is it OK to give away acres and acres of valuable public real estate for people to park their cars in the street? Where is the free market for that? $15 a year for a parking sticker for land worth hundreds at market rates?

You are already being forced by your governments, in a hundred ways, to pay for people to drive and own passenger cars, a transport system that causes immeasurable social harm as well as being extremely expensive for the taxpayer. How about you fight to remove ALL that taxpayer subsidy and centralized planning in favor of the car, and I'll forget all about bike subsidies for all but the poorest people. We won't need them, because when car owners are forced to pay the true free-market value of car use, bikes will become the obvious choice for far more people.


Well said Elsquid.

I'd also point to a $5000 tax break on purchase of electric cars.

And the state, county and city pump $billions of our hard-earned tax dollars into maintenance of roads every year - when a high percentage of people don't own cars. Why shouldn't roads be fully funded by gas taxes and tolls?

And the fact that private sector firms with a presence in JC - Citibank, Goldmans, Bank of America, etc - would be much happier donating cash and free bikes/maintenance - than trying to run a business outside their area of expertise like a bike share.

A few hundred dollars/year in bike-related tax deductions or rebates would go a long way not only to encourage bike ownership - but could actually fund local small business if tied to something like: http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... unching_shop_bayonne.html

Hyperbole like "leftist crap" doesn't add much to moving things forward - when I think most of us agree on the end goals and benefits. A bike share isn't a "killer app" - there's no reason we can't tackle the issue on multiple fronts with multiple solutions and see what works best.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 20:46
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@Pebble, here is the link-several cities in NJ offer inexpensive bikes, which are often donated then serviced by volunteers before resale. All at no cost to taxpayers.

http://www.bikeexchangenj.org/

@elsquid, when almost half of citizens pay ZERO Federal taxes it's obvious the big earners are paying the 'fair share' of the cost of roads, mass transit, etc that are funded by the Federal government. So yes, many 'users' pay nothing to benefit from, well, everything the Federal government provides.


Bike exchanges are awesome. Yes, we should do that here.

Your tax formula is not inaccurate, but it has started to fail as young professionals started abandoning the car and moving to microapartments in walkable, bikeable neighborhoods in cities like ours. Many of them earn more and pay more taxes than the owner of a junker car in some congested near suburb.

More importantly, no matter who is being taxed for it, government actions perpetuating over-reliance on the least efficient, most socially damaging form of ground transportation are a bad idea.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 19:46

Edited by elsquid on 2014/12/26 20:10:24
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@Pebble, here is the link-several cities in NJ offer inexpensive bikes, which are often donated then serviced by volunteers before resale. All at no cost to taxpayers.

http://www.bikeexchangenj.org/

@elsquid, when almost half of citizens pay ZERO Federal taxes it's obvious the big earners are paying the 'fair share' of the cost of roads, mass transit, etc that are funded by the Federal government. So yes, many 'users' pay nothing to benefit from, well, everything the Federal government provides.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 19:10
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I take the Path from Grove every day and there isn't enough space for people with their own bikes. I wish they could accomodate those people, who've been riding for years first. Plus the market they have several times a week makes that situation worse. Yes, there are other Path stations in JC, maybe the logistics at those stations are better.
I do think the bike share theory is good and no matter how many studies you do you really don't know until you try it. AND no matter what you say about the program in Manhattan tons of people are using it every day and only the bad points make news....so we shall see.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 17:32
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Is the idea that to have bikes up in the heights so people can ride to Grove St or Newport or wherever and dock them and get on the Path or is the idea they take them on the Path and continue riding them in or dock them in Lower Manhattan? Are they doing this during rush hour? Citibikes are big and take up alot of space. And what about the time constraint and the fees if you are forced to go over time because of train delays?
If the idea is just to ride to the station and dock them there, where are they going to put the tremendous number of docking spaces you would need to make this truly effective?
I think the theory is great but the logistics are extremely difficult even without considering the cost, which is exorbitant.
It's not clear what they are really trying to acheive.


I'm pretty sure they don't contemplate people bringing the bikes on the trains, but rather, as you say, docking the majority of them at transit stations.

But Jersey City has 4 PATH stations, plus a bunch of light-rail stations that people further out might choose if they don't want a long bike ride. And we're only talking about 350 bikes to start. At rush hour, some of those would be used to commute within JC and docked all over the place, and some would go to modest docks at HBLR stations. Even if you left 200 going straight to PATH stations, that's 50 docks per station. Not hard at all. Lots of Manhattan transit hubs, where there's even less street space, still manage to squeeze in that many docks in the streets adjacent to the stations.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 17:14
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Is the idea that to have bikes up in the heights so people can ride to Grove St or Newport or wherever and dock them and get on the Path or is the idea they take them on the Path and continue riding them in or dock them in Lower Manhattan? Are they doing this during rush hour? Citibikes are big and take up alot of space. And what about the time constraint and the fees if you are forced to go over time because of train delays?
If the idea is just to ride to the station and dock them there, where are they going to put the tremendous number of docking spaces you would need to make this truly effective?
I think the theory is great but the logistics are extremely difficult even without considering the cost, which is exorbitant.
It's not clear what they are really trying to acheive.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 17:02
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Much of the miles driven are user supported-gas tax (thankfully, one that isn't high), Parkway and Turnpike tolls, and NJ income taxes. Subsidies rightly go to mass transit operations for the most part.

Creating another NJ government department to give free bikes and bike repair is dumb. What's next? Free computers? Netflix?

Having a bike isn't a civil right, you know.


Across the U.S., user fees and other driver-specific revenue pays for about half the cost of roads (just road building and maintenance, not the myriad harmful byproduct costs); the rest comes from the general fund, i.e. every taxpayer's wallet. So we all pay for it. A LOT. You mention income tax. Obviously that's not a user fee. We pay it whether we drive or not.

As I said, it's fair to be skeptical about new government bureaucracy and spending. What's dismaying is how accepting we all seem to be of the fait accompli of government funding and centralized planning of the sacred passenger car, both in paying for its direct costs and in absorbing the huge costs it inflicts on taxpayers and society indirectly, from pollution and noise and various healthcare costs to the 30,000 + people killed and 100,000 + permanently maimed, dismembered, brain damaged, etc. in road violence every single year in America.

It might be worth pointing out here that the bike advocacy community, traditionally associated with liberals, is starting to receive more support from libertarians and even card-carrying Tea Partiers (we call it "bikepartisanship"). They recognize that our pleas for relatively minor spending and government action can be used to attack the hideously bloated and corrupt system of entitlement spending and overreach that sustains the car monoculture.

They understand that much smaller, lighter vehicles that require less road space and do exponentially less damage to roads, that produce a far healthier population in less need of expensive healthcare, etc., etc., can be far more compatible with the smaller, more efficient government they favor than our current "car welfare state."

So you hate government waste and overreach? You should really look into the automobile-industrial complex. Look at the cozy, backscratching relationships between certain traffic engineers and consultants, developers, road builders, car companies, and governments. Check out the way that confident (and lately, often incorrect) projections of increased driving and car ownership lead to massive spending on road widening and road building and bypass projects, destroying Main Street businesses all across the U.S. and greasing everybody's palms -- and fleecing the taxpayers, including the 41 percent of households in Jersey City who don't own a motor vehicle. (Oh, and most ludicrously, the road projects that desperately do need funding, namely the repair and replacement of hundreds of crumbling bridges and other critical pieces of infrastructure, don't get done because they don't promise a glorious ribboncutting and windfall profits for one small cadre.)

I get it, I get it. Gummit waste is bad, mkayyyy?

But please, could everybody recognize that we're feeling our way here? We're trying to reform a hideously wasteful and harmful system that ultimately depends upon government support for its continued existence.

Can we accept that proposals for change are always going to be imperfect, and won't be without their own (much smaller) costs, and try to focus on what we really need to solve rather than on the imperfections of the possible solutions? Please?

Posted on: 2014/12/26 16:22

Edited by elsquid on 2014/12/26 16:38:50
Edited by elsquid on 2014/12/26 16:39:41
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Monroe wrote:
Pebs, honey, I already gave you an existing alternative that is in place, works, and doesn't require my taxes increasing to support it.

As far as taxes and deductions, all those people that use that are the ones paying for the 47% of US citizens who pay zero Federal income tax.

An existing alternative to what...?

I do really hope you understand the level of dishonesty that goes into using arguments based around specifying one level of tax levied. Everyone pays taxes and everyone pays about the same percentage in totality.

I'm definitely surprised that you can't see a benefit in the encouragement of this type of behavior. Besides the health factor, which has the double benefit of reducing the medical expenses of those that can't afford medical treatment, it reduces the use of gasoline. A reduction in gasoline means lower costs, extremely basic economics. Another aspect is the reduction of cars, which alleviates congestion for those that would like to pay the premium of this luxury.

There is exceptionally little downside towards exploring this option.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 16:12
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Pebs, honey, I already gave you an existing alternative that is in place, works, and doesn't require my taxes increasing to support it.

As far as taxes and deductions, all those people that use that are the ones paying for the 47% of US citizens who pay zero Federal income tax.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 15:50
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Monroe wrote:
Much of the miles driven are user supported-gas tax (thankfully, one that isn't high), Parkway and Turnpike tolls, and NJ income taxes. Subsidies rightly go to mass transit operations for the most part.

Creating another NJ government department to give free bikes and bike repair is dumb. What's next? Free computers? Netflix?

Having a bike isn't a civil right, you know.

I see that you've gone with doubling down on thinking the ideas are absolutist...

A lot of cases could be made for providing free computers (the library provides them) given that the vast majority of job postings come from websites. A case could even be made for free Netflix, if you were truly insistent on some psychological gymnastics.

Having a bike is certainly not a right. Having your stock losses deducted isn't a right either. The question that some should be asking is about the benefit that owning bikes could have on society as a whole. More bikes could potentially mean less buses. I'm fairly certain that the expense a state agency would make in a bike is lower than that of a bus.

As a nation, we should be looking at directions which make us greater as a whole. Directing people towards a mode of transportation that's been around longer than the automobile is definitely one of them.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 15:44
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Much of the miles driven are user supported-gas tax (thankfully, one that isn't high), Parkway and Turnpike tolls, and NJ income taxes. Subsidies rightly go to mass transit operations for the most part.

Creating another NJ government department to give free bikes and bike repair is dumb. What's next? Free computers? Netflix?

Having a bike isn't a civil right, you know.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 15:31
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dtjcview wrote:
We should also be lobbying ways that put bikes into the hands of a many people as possible. The best way would be to make all bikes and bicycle gear tax-deductible at a state or federal level.

There must be similar things that can be done at a local level like getting corporate sponsorship to hand out bike gift cards to high school grads and low-income families...the City/County returning some budget surplus in the form of bike vouchers to property tax payers...


Wow... More leftist crap about giving things away without expecting people to earn them or do anything to carve a living for themselves. Have we forgotten the most basic of notions that a man (or, woman) can and will derive pleasure and satisfaction from the fruits of his or her labor? I can see making a case for some tax relief to encourage a behavior, as suggested at first, but the idea that cities should give away bicycles is just asinine. The problem with idealists is that they only delve in ideas, never bothering with reality. Give out bike vouchers for paying your property taxes? What happens after a year or two? You get to keep a bike collection? After 10 years? And, what happens after a bicycle handed out by the government breaks down? Who is going to pay to fix it? Because I guarantee you that people that get a free bike will expect free maintenance and repairs for life... Why, you ask? Because they never had to pay for it and don't understand that things cost money and through misguided governmental policies we have decoupled personal responsibility and self esteem from the person and their actions, instead fostering a culture of entitlement.


It's fair to be skeptical of government giveaways of anything; you pay taxes and want the money spent wisely. I agree that things received totally free are often undervalued by the recipients; often a partial subsidy is better. I also think it would be best if private organizations do more to put bikes under butts in Jersey City, as the excellent Newark Bike Exchange does in Newark, and I may have some further thoughts on that in the months to come.

BUT: You are, like so many people, holding bikes to one standard of free-market rigor while not holding motor vehicles to the same standard.

Why is it OK to pay looooooots of our tax dollars to bus public school kids to and from school, and to build and maintain roads and parking lots etc. around those schools so their parents can drive them, all causing more pollution, traffic, road carnage, childhood obesity, etc.--but terrible leftist crap to give kids (or maybe just kids from low-income families) a bicycle and tell them to ride to school like I did?

The city and the school district also already spend lots of your money to give kids (and adults) access to exercise and recreation, via public sports fields, parks, school sports teams, municipal sports and exercise programs, usually free or heavily subsidized, so why would it be crazy to give a low-income kid a bike to promote exercise and wholesome recreation? How is that so different?

If it's OK to give low-income people aid for food, housing, etc., why not cheap transportation (which tends to make it easier for them to get jobs, or better jobs)?

Why is it OK to give away acres and acres of valuable public real estate for people to park their cars in the street? Where is the free market for that? $15 a year for a parking sticker for land worth hundreds at market rates?

You are already being forced by your governments, in a hundred ways, to pay for people to drive and own passenger cars, a transport system that causes immeasurable social harm as well as being extremely expensive for the taxpayer. How about you fight to remove ALL that taxpayer subsidy and centralized planning in favor of the car, and I'll forget all about bike subsidies for all but the poorest people. We won't need them, because when car owners are forced to pay the true free-market value of car use, bikes will become the obvious choice for far more people.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 15:04

Edited by elsquid on 2014/12/26 15:31:33
Edited by elsquid on 2014/12/26 15:33:26
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So, are you saying that two wrongs make a right?

The fleecing of our country by opportunists (whether those at the bottom that exploit the social safety net programs, or those at the top that find ever-creative ways to shirk their taxes) is a shame. I denounce them both equally. I'm no party-line simpleton (in fact, most would call me a RINO) but I do believe that we have lost all sense of "work hard and pull yourself up" in our society. And, when I see "free bikes for all!" I can't help but see more government handouts with little thought behind it.

What I'm saying is that there is a reason that everyone is in the status they are in. The vast majority are there based on where they started; the proverbial started on third base yet thinks s/he hit a triple.

On the surface, I can easily grasp your argument about hand-outs. However, the problems come when it is applied to reality. The simple concept that walking a mile in someone's shoes could give a perspective is rather true.

Lastly, this is a message board. Those posting here are predominantly idealists of some kind or another or they are amateur politicians, ie Yvonne. Everyone has a certain passion and they'll hammer on about it. Vague ideas about "bikes for all" really aren't going to be hashed out in any truly thought provoking manner without a truly rational exchange and legitimate devil's advocate (not the poster) arguments.

You're certainly correct that handing out free bikes could pose an issue with maintenance. Monroe is correct in pointing out that free bike repair could harm the businesses that exist. I can't speak for others, but I only put a vague thought into the concept under a circumstance that I could see existing.

With the concept of bike share, I see a tremendous amount of benefits. I also recognize that there aren't a ton of bikes on the road when the weather turns crappy.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 15:03
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Monroe wrote:
State run bike store in JC? First, nice way to screw the privately owned bike stores. Yeah, let's ask for more suburban tax support while putting people out of work and damaging the tax base!

And, nearby in Newark, you can see a great example of how to provide inexpensive bikes to the poor-people donate bikes, other people donate their time to fix them up and to sell them cheaply.

Putting the state in charge would only screw things up-just imagine the salaries and benefits to the people who would manage it.

http://bike.bgcn.org/


Something similar in concept is already happening right in Lafayette. There's a very generous guy who gives his time and knowledge to fix used, old bikes for others. In fact, this reminded that I need to reach out to him to give him an old bike to be fixed and donated to someone else.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 14:50
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Monroe wrote:
State run bike store in JC? First, nice way to screw the privately owned bike stores. Yeah, let's ask for more suburban tax support while putting people out of work and damaging the tax base!

And, nearby in Newark, you can see a great example of how to provide inexpensive bikes to the poor-people donate bikes, other people donate their time to fix them up and to sell them cheaply.

Putting the state in charge would only screw things up-just imagine the salaries and benefits to the people who would manage it.

http://bike.bgcn.org/

I'm uncertain if you recognize the difference between a concept and fully hashed out idea...

None of what I wrote in this thread is a fully flushed out policy proposal. I simply argued that I can grasp the idea and conceptualize where a bike program geared towards the poor could be assisted with certain government programs. You need not make it out to be so literal.

Posted on: 2014/12/26 14:41
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