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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Home away from home
 
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What the what? Gordon is talking about a contingency plan in the event of a major catastrophe -- one of the Amtrak tunnels failing before a replacement can be put into place. If that happens, all NJ commutes will be a total disaster. He is not making a proposal for normal commuting patterns. In terms of cars, guess that? PA is already expanding all lines to 10 cars, and is being very public about it. In terms of frequency, guess what? PA is already working on that. The new signaling system should allow trains to operate closer together. PA is public about this as well. In terms of PA playing hush hush... Aren't you pointing to an article reporting a state Senator discussing a big plan? In public? Where anyone can read it? Maybe you should actually read the article again. The only reason Gordon is discussing this is because he's concerned that the Gateway project won't be done in time.
Posted on: 2017/12/8 22:29
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Just adding this in, can we please not forget that every person that would be on the PATH to/from EWK would also be carrying/rolling luggage? Each one of these people = at least 2 people without luggage. Hasn't anyone here seen a person with a stroller - or a bike (which are NEVER prevented from boarding, for some reason, even though they're not supposed to be on rush-hour trains) jam themselves onto a rush-hour train, and see how much space it takes (not to mention completely blocking other people's ability to get on/off)??
Posted on: 2017/12/8 21:59
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Home away from home
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http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2 ... nsion_is_plan_b_if_g.html
The arithmetic is simple: 10 car trains run every 3 minutes, carry 90% more passengers than 7 car trains every 4 minutes. And the 25-30 minute trip time EWR to WTC is roughly equal to JSQ - 33rd St. Yes, almost double the capacity?. Expect NJ and PA Officials to be very circumspect in their public statements about this plan ? even to the extent of making outright mis-statements about the facts. Why? Because if NY thought for a second there was a way to completely get rid of the PABT, they?d be all over it instantly.
Posted on: 2017/12/6 17:36
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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Sometimes. As much as I can. Thank G-d.
Posted on: 2017/11/30 4:44
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Home away from home
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Very impressive analysis. Dolomiti, he's not saying all fares will rise, just they'll slam a fee on airport boarders. I agree they will try and get as many people as possible to use this new line, and DTJC will suffer.
Posted on: 2017/11/30 2:57
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Apparently so, since you claim the trains are packed at 7:30 AM, when that isn't the case. I've also seen plenty of instances where a train rolls in during rush hour and it's packed - and it's immediately followed by another train with room. Plus, I have to say, spending an extra 10 minutes on your commute is a disaster? Cry me a freaking river. Nearly every other public transportation system in the area faces much worse problems, and are far more expensive. I can't imagine any commuter system in the area that doesn't deal with longer delays on a regular basis. First world problems. They are just the worst, huh?
Posted on: 2017/11/30 2:14
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Home away from home
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No, they're not. That is complete and total nonsense. The economics get much worse if ridership falls, even if fares increase. The number of actual riders isn't what drives system costs, it's the frequency of the trains, and that won't change by whacking those two lines and running more trains on the remaining routes. Quote: With a PATH extension to EWR, the tunnels to WTC can carry thousands of higher-fare paying riders everyday. Sorry, but that is just more nonsense. If they started charging $10 per fare, ridership will plummet, which will reduce revenue overall and make the system significantly less efficient. And let's face it, there are lots of people who will ride the PATH, even at $10. They'll just be really, really pissed off about it, and bombard the governor's office non-stop. Quote: The PA isn?t spending $1.7 billion for us and a few lower Manhattanites to pay $2.75 for a quick ride to Newark airport. No, it?s about finding a lot more commuters who will pay higher fares to use PATH. ooooooh so close. It's definitely about driving more traffic to EWR. It's not about turning a profit on the PATH. That will never, ever happen. Public transportation systems are not profit centers. Even the most efficient public transportation systems lose money on every single rider and fare. Quote: Heck, the PABT will never be re-built if NY gets its way. They?d happily leave us stranded in NJ. Did you somehow not notice that PA's board answers to the governor of NJ? Do you really think that Christie and Phil Murphy and Cuomo have identical agendas here? Do you really think Cuomo will delight in hearing that more NJ commuters will pile into NYC subways during rush hour? Did you really not notice how quickly Port Authority drew back from the mere suggestion of closing the PATH system for a few hours every night? Quote: There?s some good news for JC in all this. With the crossing points gone, PATH can operate faster and more frequent service on the lines that remain, EWR ? WTC and HOB ? 33rd. No, it can't. PATH is already running as many trains as it can during rush hour. It won't be able to run more trains by eliminating lines. If it can only run X number of trains under the Hudson at a time, it doesn't matter at all if those trains were last in Hoboken, or Pavonia, or Exchange Place. Even if it did happen somehow, that change will slam other transit systems, primarily the HBLR and MTA. It will outrage commuters on both sides of the river. It will outrage Wall Street and other firms, whose employees will complain about the changes in commutes. Where did you come up with this boondoggle of an idea? Florida? ;)
Posted on: 2017/11/30 2:00
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Let's take all your assumptions for face value. You fail to address what happens during off peak periods. The bottleneck only exists for a couple hours in the morning and afternoon each day. It's not an issue any other time.
Why wouldn't the PA resume those other services for the 22 other hours of the day when there is physical capacity to do so? JSQ to 33rd is not going away. I can see Hoboken to WTC going one day, but never JSQ to 33rd. A $10 fare from Newark Airport isn't attractive if the train is only going to the WTC. It's much more valuable to the Port Authority if the train also goes to 33rd.
Posted on: 2017/11/29 21:27
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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I?ve been in Florida enjoying some warm weather, accumulating a few days out of NJ before year end. Now I?m back and want to follow up on this for anyone who might be interested in more details.
It is 100% certain PATH will get rid of the HOB ? WTC and JSQ ? 33rd lines. Eventually those lines will be forced shut because of compelling economics and unrelenting increases in commuters. Given the sensitivities, and likely push back, the PA will be very quiet until it?s a done deal, so of course they are being very coy, but it?s inevitable. And the naysayers, City operatives and developer shills who often post here aren?t interested in telling you the truth. You need to think for yourselves?. It is patently obvious to anyone who rides PATH today there are serious capacity problems. The deniers have hidden agendas to push. Here?s what going down, and if it?s done well, it could be a big plus. To cope with future trans-Hudson commuter demand and plug PATH?s $450 million annual deficit, the PA needs to extract more efficiency and better monetize the value of the downtown H&M tubes. It seems they?ve found a way. The EWR extension is key to unlocking that value. With a PATH extension to EWR, the tunnels to WTC can carry thousands of higher-fare paying riders everyday. Listers, the PA isn?t spending $1.7 billion for us and a few lower Manhattanites to pay $2.75 for a quick ride to Newark airport. No, it?s about finding a lot more commuters who will pay higher fares to use PATH. It?s a big plus for JC and NJ, but it raises significant issues, including re-configuring PATH. The plan turns EWR ? WTC into the major NJ/NYC commuter rail line. The scoping document doesn?t say it that way, but it?s clear. The new EWR station, next to I-78, Rte 22, 1&9, Amtrak, NJT, and close to the Turnpike and Parkway, will have intermodal facilities. The PA wants every commuter it can get on PATH from all the buses and cars that go by there daily. They?ll charge for EWR station ?access?, and run as many trains as possible. All for a paltry $1.7 billion. Even at double ($3.4 billion), it?s a bargain. And NY can?t delay or stop it because, unlike the PABT, it?s all here in NJ. It?s a great idea for everyone who goes past the airport on their way to NYC. It takes buses and cars off highways, and generates money for the PA. It takes pressure off the Gateway tunnel ($30+ billion) and PABT projects ($10+ billion), both still unfunded and over a decade away. Heck, the PABT will never be re-built if NY gets its way. They?d happily leave us stranded in NJ. Expect a huge fight, and long delays before you see a new PABT. Our friends in NY see the PA bridges, tunnels and bus terminal as giant pipes that send ?their? jobs, money, and taxes to NJ by the bus and train load every day. The passenger ?access? fee for the EWR station will be about $10 ? 3.5 times today?s $2.75 fare. This means revenue from one, full EWR train (10 cars, $12.75 fare) will be about five times that of a full HOB ? WTC or JSQ ? 33rd train (7 cars, $2.75 fare). If you?re running PATH, with an annual $450 million deficit, which line has priority? A line that generates one fifth the revenue?? I don?t think so. How does it impact the HOB ? WTC and JSQ ? 33rd lines? Just run more trains, you say. Well, at present there?s a ?bottleneck? that limits system capacity so it can?t run more trains. The federally mandated ?headway? gap (the time between trains) for crossing point safety limits the number of trains that can run. Get rid of the crossing points for trains from HOB and JSQ and you can run more EWR ? WTC trains. Recall, the EWR trains have the 5 fold revenue increase, and 40% greater passenger load. At the margin, HOB ? WTC, and JSQ ? 33rd trains cost PATH revenue and capacity, so it?s a matter of when, not if, those lines go for more EWR trains. Of course, even without crossing points PATH eventually reaches the limits of the then much higher capacity constraints. But that?s a long way off. There?s some good news for JC in all this. With the crossing points gone, PATH can operate faster and more frequent service on the lines that remain, EWR ? WTC and HOB ? 33rd. Adjust your commute and take your pick which one you?ll ride. You?ll have less wait time and faster rides. Getting to the airport from JC will be fast, easy, and cost less ? no taxi, Uber, etc., and no traffic tie ups to worry about. You won?t need to leave an hour earlier, in case there?s a jam on the Skyway or Turnpike. IMHO the benefits far outweigh any down-sides, but I get that some people won?t like it. And it?s not perfect, so I do have some questions for the PA. Will the access charge apply only to the airport station? What about a discount fare for airport staff? Will we be left standing in the dust at JSQ or Grove St, by trains full of higher-fare paying commuters from EWR? Will PATH run WTC trains that start empty from JSQ, and Grove St? Have your say now Listers, make sure they?ve thought about the details and the plans are robust, work for JC, and are implemented accordingly. But know this: the service will change, it?s inevitable. There?s way too much money at stake. There?s over 400 pages of report about trans Hudson commuting from the PA, here and here: https://www.panynj.gov/about/pdf/Trans ... ummary_Report_9-21-16.pdf https://www.panynj.gov/about/pdf/Trans ... ll_Appendices_9-21-16.pdf
Posted on: 2017/11/29 21:13
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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I was on a WTC train around that time, but got on at JSQ. The train was packed there, and a few people couldn't get on. Rare that I've seen the WTC line that crowded at JSQ.
Posted on: 2017/11/29 18:02
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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Of course not. You work from home.
Posted on: 2017/11/29 16:27
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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Apparently we are living in parallel universes.
Today: 8:29- WTC train pulls in, I am at the at the front end of the train where there is generally more space, and there was except there were alot of people in front of me so I couldn't get in. OK. 8:31 33rd St train pulls in 8:33 a second 33rd St train pulls in 8:37 WTC train pulls in but it's packed because there hasn't been a train in several minutes, one or two people manage to get in at Grove. Pushers would have been useful. 8:39 another WTC train comes and I am in the front of the platform and I get in, and it is packed. Train pulls into Exchange Place where generally several people get out but not today. Sucks for you Exchange Place riders. Total wait time only 10 minutes. Total experience: Sucked but typical. I would love to be able to get to the airport via the Path but additional riders in the morning commute, and on the WTC line would be a disaster.
Posted on: 2017/11/29 16:17
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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Oh, really? Last week I caught a 7:30 AM train at Grove Street, and was able to get a seat. Yes, it does get busy and crowded around 8:15 - 9:15, and I've had some unpleasant commutes, but it's rare that I can't get onto a train. I have never even considered riding out to JSQ first. The new signal system should be in operation soon, and that will allow more trains to run. They're expanding platforms to allow 10-car trains on all lines. Although I don't expect it to happen any time soon, they could switch to accordion-style cars that increase capacity by 10%. And let's get a little perspective. We aren't in Tokyo, we don't have subway pushers. Rush hour on the PATH is definitely not fantabulous, the system definitely has problems, but it also isn't the nightmare some people claim, and isn't going to explode because one more person tries to commute during rush hour. 
Posted on: 2017/11/29 15:32
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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wait, aren't trains supposed to be jammed pack during rush hour. i've been in many other cities where i've missed trains because they were so full. i've also been on trains where people had to push me/my luggage out of the train during rush hour- what a memorable occassion. lol
Posted on: 2017/11/29 14:23
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Home away from home
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It's a lot easier to justify something you don't have to live with.
Posted on: 2017/11/28 18:44
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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I took that commute almost every day for about 14 years. I was on the 33rd St line so it was a bit more manageable, but yes, I've been there. I still am to a lesser degree. My commute is more flexible now so it's not as bad. But yes, I understand. I have been taking subways since I was a kid.
Posted on: 2017/11/28 18:34
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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Do you really understand the Rush Hour crunch? The morning rush "hour" is 6:30 am to 9:30am. From 7:30am to 8:30 am the WTC train is so packed you frequently have to let one or two trains pass to get in one at Grove St. I frequently take the train back one stop to Journal Square if it's really bad. The second Journal Square tower isn't up yet. Combine that with all the other buildings going up and the PATH is basically obsolete. The 33rd St train is slightly better but that won't last given the increase in population. Our neighbors at Exchange Place are in a much worse position with almost zero capacity from 7:30 to 8:30am. It would be awesome if they could increase service at off times and on weekends as well but frankly, I'm more worried about getting to work than being late for brunch. The ferries are pretty much worthless given the cost and the fact they are only accessible to a small portion of the city. Extending the PATH will just make a miserable rush hour even more miserable. But since you understand it so well.....
Posted on: 2017/11/28 18:17
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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I'm not an engineer and wont pretend that I know the intricacies of the PATH switching system! I just think that, even if it is NYC subway level f&$&@d, the scope makes the problem different. As in, expensive but doable rather than, decades and tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars of gut renovation.
Posted on: 2017/11/28 18:09
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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I was under the impression that there was more that could be done with the switching and signals if they were truly 21st century. Otherwise we are truly fucked, because every pol and planner wants to add population and even park n rides along these PATH lines with limited capacity.
I say no to this expansion that will not serve Hudson County. If Essex needs expanded transit let them connect to the future new Penn tunnel.
Posted on: 2017/11/28 17:51
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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Quote:
True. But it's not quite the same problem just because of scope. Yes, the PATH needs maintenance. But it's only a few stations. Realistically, there is not much you can do to increase PATH capacity. Upgrading switching and train control can reduce the headways slightly. The WTC to NWK line can add a couple of more cars on with station renovations. But unless you are going to do something really immense, like build an entire new set of tunnels to double tracks, the PATH system will be what it is. That being the case, the question is whether we want to say "this is it, we can't expand" and just maintain and upgrade the infrastructure we have. I don't think that is prudent here. A South Newark/Airport extension would increase use and help development in Newark. I understand concerns about the Rush Hour crunch, but airport traffic would be spread out more. The hope would be that it would justify increasing service in the off hours. For me, at least, the biggest drawback of the PATH is not that it is crowded during Rush Hour, but that service at other times, particularly on weekends, is not frequent enough. PATH needs upgrades, and extensions will increase operating costs even after they are built. But it is not the 665 miles of 19th century infrastructure cluster$&#^ that is the MTA Subway. If the expansion can serve rider demand and help develop Newark, it should go forward.
Posted on: 2017/11/28 17:15
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Why is it the PA can't fucking read the papers about where the MTA went off the rails and ended up with a poorly operating system? All analysis points to prioritizing sexy new projects over maintenance, updating, and expanding capacity of current infrastructure.
Quote: NEWARK -- The public can weigh in on a plan to extend PATH service to Newark Liberty International Airport at two informational meetings this week in Newark. http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/201 ... h.html#incart_river_index
Posted on: 2017/11/28 17:03
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What a load of shit.
Posted on: 2017/11/23 15:58
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Re: PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Home away from home
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So much conjecture without any basis in fact, or logic. The JSQ/33rd line will NEVER go away. You are making all kinds of wild assumptions, based on a faulty understanding of the related concepts and regulatory requirements. The headway between trains is determined by a number of factors, in addition to regulatory requirements, but that's what the signal upgrade project is supposed to address. Once the signal upgrade is completed, the PA will be able to run with shortened intervals between trains while satisfying federal guidelines. We currently run at about 4 minute intervals, and the 3-minute interval is the goal of the signal upgrade. Also, the pipe dream of a combined fare system for the NYC subway and PATH is just that, a pipe dream. The MTA and PA will never be able to reach an agreement to have a combined system. The vested interests and political realities will prevent that from happening.
Posted on: 2017/11/23 14:17
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PATH - proposed Newark Airport extension
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Take a good look at this fellow Listers.
http://www.panynj.gov/path/pdf/PATH_E ... Document_November2017.pdf There are a couple of public meetings planned for comments. http://www.panynj.gov/path/pdf/PATH_E ... Meeting_Flyer_English.pdf From the document: ?The new PATH station will be designed to allow for the construction of commuter parking, thereby providing the potential for expanded trans-Hudson transit access for commuters. The size of the parking facility analyzed in the EA will be identified based on potential demand and cost effectiveness criteria, and its design will be developed during a station area planning effort, which will solicit input from key stakeholders. Different parking facility options may be analyzed in the EA to capture the effects of plausible scenarios. The parking facilities analyzed will likely include a surface lot and/or a parking garage for daily commuters.? On balance, this could be a great idea but ONLY IF service frequency is greatly increased. Significant additional commuter loads are likely from the planned ?park and ride? facilities located just off I-78 and Rte 22. More trains will be needed. The scoping document states 3 minute frequency during rush hour. Increasing service frequency on PATH is not simple. The federally mandated ?headway? gap that must be maintained between trains complicates things. It becomes critical at crossing points where the lines intersect, as the number of train that can ?fit? while maintaining the required ?headway? is limited. So, to run more trains on a given line, PATH must reduce train crossings on that line. Although they?re not saying it just yet, this means eventually it?s goodbye HOB to WTC, and possibly even to JSQ to 33rd. Sooner or later, eliminating crossing points where those lines intersect with the EWR to WTC line becomes the only way to ?fit? more trains on the EWR-WTC line. Otherwise, how do they carry all those additional commuters from EWR and beyond ? short of building new PATH tunnels? For some (many?) JC commuters this could mean problems. However, IF WTC service becomes much more frequent, as the document states (do we believe the PA??) the negative impact for those folks is mitigated (somewhat) by better WTC service. For many, including other JC commuters, increased WTC service frequency will be a huge plus. To sweeten the whole deal for everyone, why not have a single set fare that includes BOTH PATH and the NYC Subway? Or allow people to buy reduce fare ?transfers? across the systems. And while they are at it, please fully integrate the PATH and subway fare systems. I saw no mention of those ideas in the document.
Posted on: 2017/11/23 13:45
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$1.5 Billion PATH Extension to Newark Airport Approved, Construction Set for 2018
NJDOT lauds Port Authority's move to approve funding for the project, an affordable option that would serve about 6,000 passengers a day. Hoboken Patch By Emily Everson (Patch Staff) ?December 10, 2014 at 5:13pm Port Authority?s move to provide $1.5 billion in funding for the one stop PATH extension to Newark Liberty National Airport is being lauded today by New Jersey officials. The construction, set to begin in 2018, will provide an affordable commute for many, and convenient travel options for thousands. The Port Authority of NYNJ also approved $6.4 million for planning for the project in the 2015 Capital Budget approved today. The $1.5 billion PATH extension will run from PATH?s western terminus at Newark Penn Station to the airport using existing Northeast Corridor rail lines. About 3,000 passengers travelling out of Newark Airport each day would use the new extension to take a PATH train to the airport, according to a study investigated by NJ.com. The project, which would serve about 6,000 passengers a day, will take five years to complete, according to NJ Advanced Media. Read more: http://patch.com/new-jersey/hoboken/1 ... d-construction-set-2018-0
Posted on: 2014/12/11 1:53
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if i have plenty of time; i take the 62 bus...but when i need to be there in short order i either take train to ewr station
Posted on: 2014/10/4 22:15
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Home away from home
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For PATH riders, I find its easier to go to Newark Penn, and then take the 62 bus. This avoids the transfer at the Liberty station and shlepping your crap up and down the stairs. Also the bus stops closer to the terminals and only costs $1.50
Now if you really wanted to do a cost effective solution you could have a non-stop express bus from Newark Penn to EWR, as the number of stops is irritating for sure and many folks will not want a tour through downtown Newark. I do agree with Brewster, we need to see some improvement in the PATH to benefit NJ riders and increase the capacity. Whats the point of extending routes when there is no room on the train? And oh yeah, that monorail seems to break down fairly often, whats up with that?
Posted on: 2014/10/4 19:17
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Re: Port Authority plans to extend PATH to Newark airport
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Home away from home
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This article is interesting because it notes that Port Authority officials have suggested the PATH could one day continue directly to the airport (bypassing the Monorail). The current extension would go that far, but it could continue on from that point in the future.
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/p ... t-extension-advances.html
Posted on: 2014/10/3 14:40
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It wouldn't make sense for the full PATH system, since it's not zoned like DC's. But the Airtrain has always been $5, so there's another fare gate there anyway.
Posted on: 2014/10/2 16:13
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Home away from home
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This is the system that the DC Metro uses. It is quite cumbersome for travelers not from the area.
Posted on: 2014/10/2 16:05
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Dos A Cero
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