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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Look at how long it took to rid JC of some of these teachers-and the overriding issue was absenteeism that would result in a pink slip quickly in the real world, not for being a poor teacher. A teacher missing 10% of her school days over a 37 year career and keeping her position? Great job, NJEA!

http://www.nj.com/jjournal-news/index ... y_has_fired_four_tea.html

In one school, only one teacher in an elementary school had gotten an 'unsatisfactory' rating-IN TWENTY YEARS!

http://njmonthly.com/articles/towns_a ... new-jerseys-teachers.html


Posted on: 2014/10/2 16:14
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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JPhurst wrote:
The salaries range from a little above $50,000 to somewhere around $110,000, for a teacher with 20+ years experience and the most advanced degrees.

The "progression" is very small at the front end. Basically over 10 years a teacher only gets raises of a few thousand dollars. In the 11th or 12th year there is a jump into the 60s. I gather that is something of a point of contention. I also was told by one teacher that while the contract is expired, teachers are stuck on whatever rung they were on (I don't understand why that is so, but that's what I was told), so that is another sore spot.

Funny... you need a masters degree in education in order to break that six digits yet people that demonstrate how much of a moron they are on this message board claim to make far more than that...

Posted on: 2014/10/2 16:07
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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The salaries range from a little above $50,000 to somewhere around $110,000, for a teacher with 20+ years experience and the most advanced degrees.

The "progression" is very small at the front end. Basically over 10 years a teacher only gets raises of a few thousand dollars. In the 11th or 12th year there is a jump into the 60s. I gather that is something of a point of contention. I also was told by one teacher that while the contract is expired, teachers are stuck on whatever rung they were on (I don't understand why that is so, but that's what I was told), so that is another sore spot.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 16:03
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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I've become convinced that the public union love LOW starting salaries because it give them a club to beat up on management with in the press, getting everyone to ignore the fact that those salaries increase far more rapidly than in private sector. A ten year veteran would be a far better comparison.

Cops start at $37k but top out over $100k. And that's not counting overtime. I can't find comparable teachers salaries, and averages are not representative, since there's such high turnover it's weighted towards the lower end.


JC doesn't post it's salaries online. But I'd guess Bayonne is comparable. Looks like they can break $90k around the 13-15 year mark, and break $100k after 20-30 years.

http://php.app.com/edstaff/results2.p ... r=DESC&tfm_orderby=school

Posted on: 2014/10/2 15:53
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Pebble wrote:
We've had this topic already and it was already proven out that a teacher's average salary is vastly lower than any other college graduate profession. Arguing otherwise is belying the facts that are in existence.



Not sure what you're talking about, but DTJCview literally just posted facts proving a teacher's average salary is comparable to the average college graduate salary here in JC. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own (mysterious) facts.

They are hardly mysterious. I?ve posted them previously and they are in reference to NJ Teachers and NJ college graduates. Specifying JC in comparison could be fair but isn?t exactly correct given certain dynamics.

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JCMan8 wrote:
Also, 401Ks are very user friendly. They are designed so that people who know nothing about finance may profit. Simply invest in a retirement plan designed around your estimated retirement date (such as "Retirement Fund 2050.").

Again, just because it is easy to you does not make it easy to everyone. It?s a simple concept called putting yourself in someone else?s shoes.

I?m also unsure of why you think explaining how you pick out a 401(k) to me on a message board is in any way comparable to what was mentioned.

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JCMan8 wrote:
As others have said, the real problem here is the NJEA, who makes it nearly impossible for terrible teachers to be fired. This only hurts the students. That's why California found that their teacher tenure laws were unconstitutional. New Jersey is in the crosshairs, terrible teachers and their union better watch out!

You are wrong in stating that it is impossible for terrible teachers to be fired. It may not be as easy, but it is not nearly close to being impossible.

There certainly are bad teachers that have remained employed, but I?d like you to point to an industry in which there are no bad employees.

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Monroe wrote:
So, JC teachers make about the same as the average other JC college grads, have Cadillac health plans that they contribute much less towards, get vastly more generous holiday and vacation time, and get a traditionally funded pension.

They should shut their pie holes and be happy with what they gotten from sweetheart union deals. Of course, they're miserable that Buono didn't get elected to keep the gravy train going.

401's are coming, at least for new hires, although a roll over would be correct for the NJ taxpayers who mostly have the 401K model. It should be done by the Legislature if it can't be done by collective bargaining. And it will, sooner or later.

Buzzwords like ?Cadillac health plans? are great, but they provide little of actual substance.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 15:46
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Cops start at $37k but top out over $100k. And that's not counting overtime.


The ruling class will never underpay the soldiers that protect them from the masses.


I would take about two good cops to corral all the stoner Occupy Wall Street losers.

Those 'masses' all seem to have retreated to mom and dad's basement (or the apartment they're renting them in Brooklyn). 'Where's the meatloaf, ma?'

Posted on: 2014/10/2 15:40
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Cops start at $37k but top out over $100k. And that's not counting overtime.


The ruling class will never underpay the soldiers that protect them from the masses.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 15:28
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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I've become convinced that the public union love LOW starting salaries because it give them a club to beat up on management with in the press, getting everyone to ignore the fact that those salaries increase far more rapidly than in private sector. A ten year veteran would be a far better comparison.

Cops start at $37k but top out over $100k. And that's not counting overtime. I can't find comparable teachers salaries, and averages are not representative, since there's such high turnover it's weighted towards the lower end.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 15:25
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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So, JC teachers make about the same as the average other JC college grads, have Cadillac health plans that they contribute much less towards, get vastly more generous holiday and vacation time, and get a traditionally funded pension.

They should shut their pie holes and be happy with what they gotten from sweetheart union deals. Of course, they're miserable that Buono didn't get elected to keep the gravy train going.

401's are coming, at least for new hires, although a roll over would be correct for the NJ taxpayers who mostly have the 401K model. It should be done by the Legislature if it can't be done by collective bargaining. And it will, sooner or later.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 14:55
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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JCMan8 wrote:

Not sure what you're talking about, but DTJCview literally just posted facts proving a teacher's average salary is comparable to the average college graduate salary here in JC. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own (mysterious) facts.


You and DTJCview must both be a product of Jersey City public schools, because your reading comprehension skills are not every good.

Yes, there are facts. But drawing conclusions when you totally misread the facts or don't understand the data is even worse than having an uninformed opinion.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 14:35
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Pebble wrote:
We've had this topic already and it was already proven out that a teacher's average salary is vastly lower than any other college graduate profession. Arguing otherwise is belying the facts that are in existence.



Not sure what you're talking about, but DTJCview literally just posted facts proving a teacher's average salary is comparable to the average college graduate salary here in JC. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own (mysterious) facts.

Also, 401Ks are very user friendly. They are designed so that people who know nothing about finance may profit. Simply invest in a retirement plan designed around your estimated retirement date (such as "Retirement Fund 2050.").

As others have said, the real problem here is the NJEA, who makes it nearly impossible for terrible teachers to be fired. This only hurts the students. That's why California found that their teacher tenure laws were unconstitutional. New Jersey is in the crosshairs, terrible teachers and their union better watch out!

Posted on: 2014/10/2 13:26
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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We've had this topic already and it was already proven out that a teacher's average salary is vastly lower than any other college graduate profession. Arguing otherwise is belying the facts that are in existence.

Having said that, it really doesn't matter what they ask for. The budgets are determined by what is available from the tax dollars. If the money isn't there, they won't be receiving it.

I understand the argument about 401(k) plans v. pension systems. However, 401(k) plans are not exactly the greatest on the planet. A lot of people took massive hits over the last decade. And, yeah, you could say "well, you can move your money over to money markets. Smart people did that!" My only contention is that someone smart in one category may not be smart in another. Being exceptional at teaching students how to read and write doesn't make the person great at finance.

I agree with those that say that paying the teachers more will not necessarily produce better graduation rates. Mostly this is due to the problem being the home life of many students versus the effectiveness of the teacher. Contrary, you damn sure won't get the same results or better if you cut salaries.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 13:14
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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How much does JCBOE's current health plan cost? Best guess $15-17k/employee - the $79m healthcare budget cost in 2014 divided by the 4684 employees - $17k - is probably at little on the high side.

For $5k/year, a new grad could get a silver-level Obamacare plan, and the BOE could afford to give them a $10k+ salary hike.

Sources:
https://data.openjerseycity.org/storag ... ssion-approved-032414.pdf - see page 226 "Health Benefits - $79m".

https://data.openjerseycity.org/storag ... .116Z/jcboebudget2014.pdf - see highlights and district-wide staffing sections. The INCREASE in medical costs in 2014 was $12.3m - $2.6k/employee. Enough to pay for a bronze-level plan for most grads.



Posted on: 2014/10/2 11:27
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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dtjcview wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:

We could argue this forever, but the idea of a 9 1/2 month work year, traditional pension that is almost history in the private sector, and lifetime Cadillac pensions for the teacher and spouse is part of a model that is now unsustainable. And workplace legal protections are now so strong that many of the original reasons for teacher unionization are gone.



Except that the market is saying the only people who want jobs as teachers are mediocre while competent people are going into the private sector. So the shortened work year, pension and healthcare apparently isn't as attractive as you are claiming.


New grads aren't really interested in pensions and healthcare. Give them a bronze-level healthcare plan, a 4% match into a 401k, and 30-50% increase in base salary and that will match anything the private sector will offer. And would end up costing little more than at present.

Oh. And a career that rewards them for performance, not tenure. The brightest and smartest are motivated by success and not simply service.


Median salary in Jersey City: $52,623

Average salary at Goldman Sachs -- a business in Jersey City -- is $135,000... per quarter.


Median salary at a big law firm is down from its high, but its still $145,000 a year.


You don't need to know how to do common core math to understand that law and finance pay more than being a teacher, which is why talented people end up not teaching.


http://www.nalp.org/2012_associate_salaries


http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... achers_median_salary.html

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/ ... y-for-3-months-is-135-594


A fairer comparison is teachers vs overall college grads.

Starting salary for JC teacher - ~$52k

Average starting salary in JC for a college grad - $57k

If you cut the platinum healthcare and pension benefits and gave new teachers say a 30-50% salary hike - that would catapult teachers to $68-78k - near the top of the college grad professions ($83k for IT specialists).

From an hours worked perspective - teachers would go from being comparable to other professions, to being compensated significantly more -
New Jersey Teacher Salaries Are Comparable to Professional Pay in Private Sector

Monroe is spot on - the NJEA is the one blocking JC schools attracting the best and the brightest. In fact every teacher should be given the choice of level of healthcare plan, and whether to opt-out of gov pensions in favor of a 401k - and given an appropriate adjustment to their base salary.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 10:08
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Monroe wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
You're comparing teachers who only need to be smarter than the average JC kid with the Ivy League MBA types who work at GS?

We don't need 'steps' for teachers to earn PhD's to get compensated extra for teaching 3rd graders how to spell.


Shit in, shit out.


Yes, I already addressed that when I noted that the 2/3 JC graduation rate should be mostly put at the feet of indifferent parents and lazy kids, or did I say lazy parents and indifferent kids? Either way it's the truth.


Good teachers will reach any child. Good teachers are recruited by better districts where they know they will be supported. In reality high school teachers need to be paid the least. K-4 is where the most shaping of a child is done. Those early childhood skills will shape them for years.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 3:57
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Posted on: 2014/10/1 19:32
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
You're comparing teachers who only need to be smarter than the average JC kid with the Ivy League MBA types who work at GS?

We don't need 'steps' for teachers to earn PhD's to get compensated extra for teaching 3rd graders how to spell.


Shit in, shit out.


Yes, I already addressed that when I noted that the 2/3 JC graduation rate should be mostly put at the feet of indifferent parents and lazy kids, or did I say lazy parents and indifferent kids? Either way it's the truth.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 19:21
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Monroe wrote:
You're comparing teachers who only need to be smarter than the average JC kid with the Ivy League MBA types who work at GS?

We don't need 'steps' for teachers to earn PhD's to get compensated extra for teaching 3rd graders how to spell.


Shit in, shit out.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 19:11
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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You're comparing teachers who only need to be smarter than the average JC kid with the Ivy League MBA types who work at GS?

We don't need 'steps' for teachers to earn PhD's to get compensated extra for teaching 3rd graders how to spell.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 18:56
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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dtjcview wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:

We could argue this forever, but the idea of a 9 1/2 month work year, traditional pension that is almost history in the private sector, and lifetime Cadillac pensions for the teacher and spouse is part of a model that is now unsustainable. And workplace legal protections are now so strong that many of the original reasons for teacher unionization are gone.



Except that the market is saying the only people who want jobs as teachers are mediocre while competent people are going into the private sector. So the shortened work year, pension and healthcare apparently isn't as attractive as you are claiming.


New grads aren't really interested in pensions and healthcare. Give them a bronze-level healthcare plan, a 4% match into a 401k, and 30-50% increase in base salary and that will match anything the private sector will offer. And would end up costing little more than at present.

Oh. And a career that rewards them for performance, not tenure. The brightest and smartest are motivated by success and not simply service.


Median salary in Jersey City: $52,623

Average salary at Goldman Sachs -- a business in Jersey City -- is $135,000... per quarter.


Median salary at a big law firm is down from its high, but its still $145,000 a year.


You don't need to know how to do common core math to understand that law and finance pay more than being a teacher, which is why talented people end up not teaching.


http://www.nalp.org/2012_associate_salaries


http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... achers_median_salary.html

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/ ... y-for-3-months-is-135-594

Posted on: 2014/10/1 18:52
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:

We could argue this forever, but the idea of a 9 1/2 month work year, traditional pension that is almost history in the private sector, and lifetime Cadillac pensions for the teacher and spouse is part of a model that is now unsustainable. And workplace legal protections are now so strong that many of the original reasons for teacher unionization are gone.



Except that the market is saying the only people who want jobs as teachers are mediocre while competent people are going into the private sector. So the shortened work year, pension and healthcare apparently isn't as attractive as you are claiming.


New grads aren't really interested in pensions and healthcare. Give them a bronze-level healthcare plan, a 4% match into a 401k, and 30-50% increase in base salary and that will match anything the private sector will offer. And would end up costing little more than at present.

Oh. And a career that rewards them for performance, not tenure. The brightest and smartest are motivated by success and not simply service.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 17:24
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Monroe wrote:

We could argue this forever, but the idea of a 9 1/2 month work year, traditional pension that is almost history in the private sector, and lifetime Cadillac pensions for the teacher and spouse is part of a model that is now unsustainable. And workplace legal protections are now so strong that many of the original reasons for teacher unionization are gone.



Except that the market is saying the only people who want jobs as teachers are mediocre while competent people are going into the private sector. So the shortened work year, pension and healthcare apparently isn't as attractive as you are claiming.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 17:08
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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ianmac47 wrote:
If you aren't happy with teacher performance, paying less is not going to help. That's like going to McDonald's and being disappointed that the food isn't as good as a high end steak house. Its like saying, "I don't want to pay more than $5,000 for a car, but I want it to last for 100,000 miles, get great fuel efficiency, and need little repair work." Its like going skydiving and choosing your parachute based on which one costs the least amount of money. Its like ordering a PBR and then getting angry it tastes like water.

If you want better teachers, you need to pay them more. You want smarter teachers, you need to pay them more. You want better educated teachers, you ned to pay them more. Why would anyone with half a brain and masters degree come to work in a shitty government building, deal with the administrative bullshit, nasty parents, nasty students, work from 7 in the morning until 5 at night, and earn a fraction of what they could make in a professional career?


Most want to well compensate great teachers. And have the flexibility to fire lousy teachers. The NJEA is the roadblock to those ends. Once a teacher gets tenure it's almost impossible to fire them for being bad teachers. As I recall the number of teachers fired for poor performance (and by that I mean as teachers, not counting ones that come in stoned or drunk, or are having sex with students, or have other criminal issues) is so tiny that it would be laughable if it wasn't so bad for the kids.


Schools were historically one of the greatest employee abusers. Corruption dictating hiring and firing, particularly political corruption. Older teachers who tended to be paid more were often fired simply because they were paid more. Long story short, teachers unionized for same reason many other workers unionized: abusive employers. Or out another way: tough shit, the workers are unionized, deal with it.

Unions protecting bad teachers doesn't negate the fact that the people most qualified to be teachers can earn many times more money working in professional careers.


We could argue this forever, but the idea of a 9 1/2 month work year, traditional pension that is almost history in the private sector, and lifetime Cadillac pensions for the teacher and spouse is part of a model that is now unsustainable. And workplace legal protections are now so strong that many of the original reasons for teacher unionization are gone.


Posted on: 2014/10/1 16:08
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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ianmac47 wrote:
If you aren't happy with teacher performance, paying less is not going to help. That's like going to McDonald's and being disappointed that the food isn't as good as a high end steak house. Its like saying, "I don't want to pay more than $5,000 for a car, but I want it to last for 100,000 miles, get great fuel efficiency, and need little repair work." Its like going skydiving and choosing your parachute based on which one costs the least amount of money. Its like ordering a PBR and then getting angry it tastes like water.

If you want better teachers, you need to pay them more. You want smarter teachers, you need to pay them more. You want better educated teachers, you ned to pay them more. Why would anyone with half a brain and masters degree come to work in a shitty government building, deal with the administrative bullshit, nasty parents, nasty students, work from 7 in the morning until 5 at night, and earn a fraction of what they could make in a professional career?


Most want to well compensate great teachers. And have the flexibility to fire lousy teachers. The NJEA is the roadblock to those ends. Once a teacher gets tenure it's almost impossible to fire them for being bad teachers. As I recall the number of teachers fired for poor performance (and by that I mean as teachers, not counting ones that come in stoned or drunk, or are having sex with students, or have other criminal issues) is so tiny that it would be laughable if it wasn't so bad for the kids.


Schools were historically one of the greatest employee abusers. Corruption dictating hiring and firing, particularly political corruption. Older teachers who tended to be paid more were often fired simply because they were paid more. Long story short, teachers unionized for same reason many other workers unionized: abusive employers. Or out another way: tough shit, the workers are unionized, deal with it.

Unions protecting bad teachers doesn't negate the fact that the people most qualified to be teachers can earn many times more money working in professional careers.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 16:02
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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by La_Verdad on 2014/10/1 10:11:56

Is it true that Greco - the head of the Teacher's union makes six figures and he has no other job other than running the JCEA? No classroom responsibilities?


Yes. As part of the previous contract (and likely part of the next,) Mr. Greco is paid with tax dollars by the Jersey City Board of Education to head the union with no classroom responsibilities.

The teachers are the ones getting the worst from this funny business but it affects all other stakeholders negatively, as well.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 15:58
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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ianmac47 wrote:
If you aren't happy with teacher performance, paying less is not going to help. That's like going to McDonald's and being disappointed that the food isn't as good as a high end steak house. Its like saying, "I don't want to pay more than $5,000 for a car, but I want it to last for 100,000 miles, get great fuel efficiency, and need little repair work." Its like going skydiving and choosing your parachute based on which one costs the least amount of money. Its like ordering a PBR and then getting angry it tastes like water.

If you want better teachers, you need to pay them more. You want smarter teachers, you need to pay them more. You want better educated teachers, you ned to pay them more. Why would anyone with half a brain and masters degree come to work in a shitty government building, deal with the administrative bullshit, nasty parents, nasty students, work from 7 in the morning until 5 at night, and earn a fraction of what they could make in a professional career?


Most want to well compensate great teachers. And have the flexibility to fire lousy teachers. The NJEA is the roadblock to those ends. Once a teacher gets tenure it's almost impossible to fire them for being bad teachers. As I recall the number of teachers fired for poor performance (and by that I mean as teachers, not counting ones that come in stoned or drunk, or are having sex with students, or have other criminal issues) is so tiny that it would be laughable if it wasn't so bad for the kids.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 15:40
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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If you aren't happy with teacher performance, paying less is not going to help. That's like going to McDonald's and being disappointed that the food isn't as good as a high end steak house. Its like saying, "I don't want to pay more than $5,000 for a car, but I want it to last for 100,000 miles, get great fuel efficiency, and need little repair work." Its like going skydiving and choosing your parachute based on which one costs the least amount of money. Its like ordering a PBR and then getting angry it tastes like water.

If you want better teachers, you need to pay them more. You want smarter teachers, you need to pay them more. You want better educated teachers, you ned to pay them more. Why would anyone with half a brain and masters degree come to work in a shitty government building, deal with the administrative bullshit, nasty parents, nasty students, work from 7 in the morning until 5 at night, and earn a fraction of what they could make in a professional career?

Posted on: 2014/10/1 15:26
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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Is it true that Greco - the head of the Teacher's union makes six figures and he has no other job other than running the JCEA? No classroom responsibilities?

Posted on: 2014/10/1 14:11
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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It's a shame that the teachers of this city have had their contract held up by the unreasonable demands of their own leadership. With the rubber-stamp Board of the past gone, how could the JCEA leadership possibly expect the current Board to go for it?

18 months, 18 meetings and the JCEA position is 3x the state average? Start high, sure, but after a year and a half it's time to get real.

The teachers should hold their leadership accountable for the mess they've made and circus they've created out of their contract negotiations.

Posted on: 2014/10/1 14:07
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Re: Jersey City teachers union seeks 19% pay hike over 3 years, sources say
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dtjcview wrote:
19% wouldn't be unreasonable if they scaled back the platinum healthcare plans, and converted teachers pensions to 401k plans.


These are the individuals who help sculpt the next generation of Americans. Why do they deserve less?


Because what they are asking for is about three times the prevailing increase in the rest of the county - also home of the next generation of Americans. I agree that there is negotiating gamesmanship going on, but you have zero credibility when you start so incredibly high (and try to turn it into an election issue.)

Posted on: 2014/10/1 12:34
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