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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Another issue is the length of the cars. I think the IRT cars are about the same length as PATH cars, but IND/BMT cars are about 10 feet longer. So extending the E, you might not be able to use E cars on the PATH tracks, assuming the longer cars can't handle PATH curves/geometry (I'm not an engineer, but the cars are shorter for a reason, I'm sure).

Also, the platforms at all stations would have to be extended quite a bit. An 11-car 6 train wouldn't fit on the platforms at Exchange Place or Grove Street (probably not JSQ or Harrison either). I think PA plans to extend the platforms at Grove to accommodate 10-car trains, what's an extra 50 feet?

These aren't fatal flaws, but considerations that come with some price tags I'm sure.

Posted on: 2014/9/18 3:47
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Quote:

HCResident wrote:
Quote:

ahal wrote:
I think by 'connect,' people meant that there would be an underground connection between the two systems, that you could walk across. Not that the rail systems would be integrated with each other.

something akin to how there is a connection between the F train and the PATH at 23rd street

Quote:

HCResident wrote:
As somewhat of a former NYC Subway enthusiast, I can pretty much tell you that connecting the PATH to the Lexington line would have not likely worked no matter who was for it.

The Lexington line (4, 5 and 6) was the first subway built in NYC and was a private business (the IRT) when it first opened. It later grew to include the what are now the 1, 2 and 3 lines as well as the 7 and Time's Square Shuttle lines.

What is now the N and R lines was also a private company (the BMT) that competed with the IRT. Later, the city got into the game and built the IND lines (A, C and E and B, D, F and Q lines).

It was not until the 1940's that the city purchased the private lines to integrate the entire subways system. Why is all this important?

Because it was never constructed as a single system, each line was built to different specifications. Pay close attention to each of these lines the next time you are on them. The tunnels, the track bases and the cars are all different sizes.

For example, the IRT cars are 8.6 ft wide. The BMT and IND cars are 9.77 ft wide. As for the PATH, their cars are 9.275 ft wide. So the PATH cars would not fit in the IRT tunnels, which is what was being proposed.

You could argue that it might be possible to run smaller cars on the PATH line, but that is assuming the track base is the same. My guess is that it is not. That would require changing all of the tracks in the PATH system, and probably all of the signaling equipment as well. Who is paying for that; especially in this political climate?

This is a pipe dream. I will admit that it is one that I personally like, but it's not a realistic probability.

Now maybe if they had designed the new 2nd Avenue line to match the specs of the PATH system they could connect them when it finally reaches that far downtown. But who can even imagine what it might take to go through all of that other infrastructure that is already in place running north and south.

We can harp, complain and blame each other's political sides all we want, but this is merely griping for griping's sake. The best we can probably ever expect out of this situation is an eventual free transfer between the two systems. But don't hold your breath for that either. My understanding is that the PA must hold on to the PATH as part of their original charter.

Like I said earlier, I wish it could all come to pass, but logistically is probably just can't.


The article in the original post calls it a "one seat ride." That seems like an actual connection of the rail lines to me. Maybe I misinterpreted.

You have to read deep into Haikalis' and Papp's rebuttal of the Parsons-Brinkerhoff analysis to get to this - all of the issues about the dimensions of the tunnel and track gauge were raised - it was the advocates position that a hybrid car could be designed. It's not clear if the MTA embraced the idea of funding the special cars for the new PATH456 line (!).

I would beg to differ with HCResident that this is just griping, though. I followed the rebuilding of the WTC site with reasonable diligence, and was not aware of this bit of history until this article in YIMBY! I think the take-away needs to be paying much closer attention to what the regional authorities are up to. This or that administration may aim to kill various projects, such as the ARC tunnel, but if these initiatives are not promoted publically, they won't even have a chance.

Posted on: 2014/9/17 17:42
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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A free transfer between systems would be nice, and also the PATH accepting unlimited Metrocards would also be a big step.

Posted on: 2014/9/17 1:20
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Quote:

HCResident wrote:
As somewhat of a former NYC Subway enthusiast, I can pretty much tell you that connecting the PATH to the Lexington line would have not likely worked no matter who was for it.

The Lexington line (4, 5 and 6) was the first subway built in NYC and was a private business (the IRT) when it first opened. It later grew to include the what are now the 1, 2 and 3 lines as well as the 7 and Time's Square Shuttle lines.

What is now the N and R lines was also a private company (the BMT) that competed with the IRT. Later, the city got into the game and built the IND lines (A, C and E and B, D, F and Q lines).

It was not until the 1940's that the city purchased the private lines to integrate the entire subways system. Why is all this important?

Because it was never constructed as a single system, each line was built to different specifications. Pay close attention to each of these lines the next time you are on them. The tunnels, the track bases and the cars are all different sizes.

For example, the IRT cars are 8.6 ft wide. The BMT and IND cars are 9.77 ft wide. As for the PATH, their cars are 9.275 ft wide. So the PATH cars would not fit in the IRT tunnels, which is what was being proposed.

You could argue that it might be possible to run smaller cars on the PATH line, but that is assuming the track base is the same. My guess is that it is not. That would require changing all of the tracks in the PATH system, and probably all of the signaling equipment as well. Who is paying for that; especially in this political climate?

This is a pipe dream. I will admit that it is one that I personally like, but it's not a realistic probability.

Now maybe if they had designed the new 2nd Avenue line to match the specs of the PATH system they could connect them when it finally reaches that far downtown. But who can even imagine what it might take to go through all of that other infrastructure that is already in place running north and south.

We can harp, complain and blame each other's political sides all we want, but this is merely griping for griping's sake. The best we can probably ever expect out of this situation is an eventual free transfer between the two systems. But don't hold your breath for that either. My understanding is that the PA must hold on to the PATH as part of their original charter.

Like I said earlier, I wish it could all come to pass, but logistically is probably just can't.


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Posted on: 2014/9/17 0:09
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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HCResident wrote:
You could argue that it might be possible to run smaller cars on the PATH line, but that is assuming the track base is the same. My guess is that it is not.


I'm betting it is the same, or they would not have proposed it. If they were going to change track, they could have proposed extending the E instead.

Posted on: 2014/9/16 23:43
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Quote:

ahal wrote:
I think by 'connect,' people meant that there would be an underground connection between the two systems, that you could walk across. Not that the rail systems would be integrated with each other.

something akin to how there is a connection between the F train and the PATH at 23rd street

Quote:

HCResident wrote:
As somewhat of a former NYC Subway enthusiast, I can pretty much tell you that connecting the PATH to the Lexington line would have not likely worked no matter who was for it.

The Lexington line (4, 5 and 6) was the first subway built in NYC and was a private business (the IRT) when it first opened. It later grew to include the what are now the 1, 2 and 3 lines as well as the 7 and Time's Square Shuttle lines.

What is now the N and R lines was also a private company (the BMT) that competed with the IRT. Later, the city got into the game and built the IND lines (A, C and E and B, D, F and Q lines).

It was not until the 1940's that the city purchased the private lines to integrate the entire subways system. Why is all this important?

Because it was never constructed as a single system, each line was built to different specifications. Pay close attention to each of these lines the next time you are on them. The tunnels, the track bases and the cars are all different sizes.

For example, the IRT cars are 8.6 ft wide. The BMT and IND cars are 9.77 ft wide. As for the PATH, their cars are 9.275 ft wide. So the PATH cars would not fit in the IRT tunnels, which is what was being proposed.

You could argue that it might be possible to run smaller cars on the PATH line, but that is assuming the track base is the same. My guess is that it is not. That would require changing all of the tracks in the PATH system, and probably all of the signaling equipment as well. Who is paying for that; especially in this political climate?

This is a pipe dream. I will admit that it is one that I personally like, but it's not a realistic probability.

Now maybe if they had designed the new 2nd Avenue line to match the specs of the PATH system they could connect them when it finally reaches that far downtown. But who can even imagine what it might take to go through all of that other infrastructure that is already in place running north and south.

We can harp, complain and blame each other's political sides all we want, but this is merely griping for griping's sake. The best we can probably ever expect out of this situation is an eventual free transfer between the two systems. But don't hold your breath for that either. My understanding is that the PA must hold on to the PATH as part of their original charter.

Like I said earlier, I wish it could all come to pass, but logistically is probably just can't.


The article in the original post calls it a "one seat ride." That seems like an actual connection of the rail lines to me. Maybe I misinterpreted.

Posted on: 2014/9/16 23:11
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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I think by 'connect,' people meant that there would be an underground connection between the two systems, that you could walk across. Not that the rail systems would be integrated with each other.

something akin to how there is a connection between the F train and the PATH at 23rd street

Quote:

HCResident wrote:
As somewhat of a former NYC Subway enthusiast, I can pretty much tell you that connecting the PATH to the Lexington line would have not likely worked no matter who was for it.

The Lexington line (4, 5 and 6) was the first subway built in NYC and was a private business (the IRT) when it first opened. It later grew to include the what are now the 1, 2 and 3 lines as well as the 7 and Time's Square Shuttle lines.

What is now the N and R lines was also a private company (the BMT) that competed with the IRT. Later, the city got into the game and built the IND lines (A, C and E and B, D, F and Q lines).

It was not until the 1940's that the city purchased the private lines to integrate the entire subways system. Why is all this important?

Because it was never constructed as a single system, each line was built to different specifications. Pay close attention to each of these lines the next time you are on them. The tunnels, the track bases and the cars are all different sizes.

For example, the IRT cars are 8.6 ft wide. The BMT and IND cars are 9.77 ft wide. As for the PATH, their cars are 9.275 ft wide. So the PATH cars would not fit in the IRT tunnels, which is what was being proposed.

You could argue that it might be possible to run smaller cars on the PATH line, but that is assuming the track base is the same. My guess is that it is not. That would require changing all of the tracks in the PATH system, and probably all of the signaling equipment as well. Who is paying for that; especially in this political climate?

This is a pipe dream. I will admit that it is one that I personally like, but it's not a realistic probability.

Now maybe if they had designed the new 2nd Avenue line to match the specs of the PATH system they could connect them when it finally reaches that far downtown. But who can even imagine what it might take to go through all of that other infrastructure that is already in place running north and south.

We can harp, complain and blame each other's political sides all we want, but this is merely griping for griping's sake. The best we can probably ever expect out of this situation is an eventual free transfer between the two systems. But don't hold your breath for that either. My understanding is that the PA must hold on to the PATH as part of their original charter.

Like I said earlier, I wish it could all come to pass, but logistically is probably just can't.

Posted on: 2014/9/16 22:08
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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As somewhat of a former NYC Subway enthusiast, I can pretty much tell you that connecting the PATH to the Lexington line would have not likely worked no matter who was for it.

The Lexington line (4, 5 and 6) was the first subway built in NYC and was a private business (the IRT) when it first opened. It later grew to include the what are now the 1, 2 and 3 lines as well as the 7 and Time's Square Shuttle lines.

What is now the N and R lines was also a private company (the BMT) that competed with the IRT. Later, the city got into the game and built the IND lines (A, C and E and B, D, F and Q lines).

It was not until the 1940's that the city purchased the private lines to integrate the entire subways system. Why is all this important?

Because it was never constructed as a single system, each line was built to different specifications. Pay close attention to each of these lines the next time you are on them. The tunnels, the track bases and the cars are all different sizes.

For example, the IRT cars are 8.6 ft wide. The BMT and IND cars are 9.77 ft wide. As for the PATH, their cars are 9.275 ft wide. So the PATH cars would not fit in the IRT tunnels, which is what was being proposed.

You could argue that it might be possible to run smaller cars on the PATH line, but that is assuming the track base is the same. My guess is that it is not. That would require changing all of the tracks in the PATH system, and probably all of the signaling equipment as well. Who is paying for that; especially in this political climate?

This is a pipe dream. I will admit that it is one that I personally like, but it's not a realistic probability.

Now maybe if they had designed the new 2nd Avenue line to match the specs of the PATH system they could connect them when it finally reaches that far downtown. But who can even imagine what it might take to go through all of that other infrastructure that is already in place running north and south.

We can harp, complain and blame each other's political sides all we want, but this is merely griping for griping's sake. The best we can probably ever expect out of this situation is an eventual free transfer between the two systems. But don't hold your breath for that either. My understanding is that the PA must hold on to the PATH as part of their original charter.

Like I said earlier, I wish it could all come to pass, but logistically is probably just can't.

Posted on: 2014/9/16 21:59
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Quote:

Monroe wrote:

The ARC tunnel wasn't signed off, they had only started a pilot hole. Is a project really underway when the financing isn't agreed upon? Nope.

No one knew about it, why not? It sounds like a great idea that would've served a great purpose. Why didn't McGreevey push it? Murky? Even under McGreevey the PA wasn't transparent it seems.


Probably because the ARC tunnel, while not in the process of being dug, was at that point about ten years in the making. It began with Christie Todd Whitman (R) as governor. Donald DiFrancesco (R) also supported the tunnel. So McGreevey comes along and, this is assuming he even knew about the proposal to extend the PATH, has two choices. He can move along a project that has bipartisan support and and estimated completion date of about the time his new daughter graduates high school, or he can try his luck with some unsupported, seemingly insane proposal by a democrat from Brooklyn who can't deliver federal funding, will still require years of study, and isn't necessarily going to have the support of an antagonistic Republican party. McGreevey chose to continue a project that had the support of two sitting NJ senators, a retired NJ senator, two former Republican governors, two former Democratic governor's, and a cabinet member of the sitting Republican President, not the out of nowhere proposal from minor Congressman from Brooklyn.

The ARC tunnel also matched McGreevey's broader strategy for New Jersey which included reigning in sprawl, encouraging transit oriented smart growth, and expanding transit facilities. A new tunnel would have connected Bergen County directly to Manhattan (and generated $18 billion in increased property value). Extending the PATH along the east side would be great for Jersey City, Hoboken and Newark. But McGreevey was the governor for the whole state, looking at priorities for the whole state, and, coming from central New Jersey, certainly focused on the middle portions of New Jersey rather than the gold coast. For Woodbridge, where he was mayor for two terms, ARC would mean more train service. For Middlesex County, it would mean a new train line connecting Monmouth and acted as a development catalyst for then closing Fort Monmouth. ARC also meant connecting western New Jersey along the Pennsylvania border with rail service. None of those new lines are possible without the ARC tunnel, and linking the PATH with the Lexington Ave line would not have helped any of these other places have better access to jobs in New York City.

Posted on: 2014/9/16 19:39
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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moobycow wrote:
Munro,

The point being that asking why or why not people are pointing fingers is way down on the list of what is import, yet it is always your first comment. Knowing your primary concern is partisan politics makes every single thing you post suspect.


Riiight, don't answer the question but point at the one asking the question-good diversion attempt!


Posted on: 2014/9/16 18:41
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Munro,

The point being that asking why or why not people are pointing fingers is way down on the list of what is import, yet it is always your first comment. Knowing your primary concern is partisan politics makes every single thing you post suspect.

Posted on: 2014/9/15 23:41
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Inasmuch as i would've liked it, I'm kind of surprised the mta was for it. Adding to the crowding of the most jam packed subway line seems like something they wouldn't have been thrilled about.

Posted on: 2014/9/15 22:51
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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leadership in nj is a joke..democrat or republican

Posted on: 2014/9/15 22:38
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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moobycow wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Wasn't McGreevey the NJ Governor when this project was killed?

Where is the fauxrage over his PA influence to kill this project when he was governor?


Could have something to do with the project not already being underway before it was killed, that no one knew about it at the time and the details are completely murky.

When your first comment is always a partisan snipe of some kind it is really very easy to tune out anything substantive you might have to say.


The ARC tunnel wasn't signed off, they had only started a pilot hole. Is a project really underway when the financing isn't agreed upon? Nope.

No one knew about it, why not? It sounds like a great idea that would've served a great purpose. Why didn't McGreevey push it? Murky? Even under McGreevey the PA wasn't transparent it seems.

Posted on: 2014/9/15 21:12
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Monroe wrote:
Wasn't McGreevey the NJ Governor when this project was killed?

Where is the fauxrage over his PA influence to kill this project when he was governor?


Could have something to do with the project not already being underway before it was killed, that no one knew about it at the time and the details are completely murky.

When your first comment is always a partisan snipe of some kind it is really very easy to tune out anything substantive you might have to say.

Posted on: 2014/9/15 20:44
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Wasn't McGreevey the NJ Governor when this project was killed?

Where is the fauxrage over his PA influence to kill this project when he was governor?

Posted on: 2014/9/15 20:41
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Conformist wrote:
Amusing that the Port Authority at once hates the PATH for being a money-loser but refuses to surrender authority over PATH as it would have had to do for PATH-Lex to work.


The PA is run by the Ferengi "Rules of Acquisition": once you have control of something you never let go, no matter what. The connection would have been amazing, and not least because it probably would have meant free transfers from PATH to MTA throughout the system. What I don't understand is why is this the 1st time we've head this story, 11 years after the fact?

Posted on: 2014/9/15 20:00
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Amusing that the Port Authority at once hates the PATH for being a money-loser but refuses to surrender authority over PATH as it would have had to do for PATH-Lex to work.

I do question whether there would have been adequate capacity on the Lex Ave Local to support an extension to Newark, however--it's already the busiest transit line in the country (the world?), and extending the line would decrease capacity due to more delays, etc. I'm sure it could have been done, but that would have been a bigger concern than the costs of connecting the lines.

Posted on: 2014/9/15 14:25
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Re: Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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Yes, no surprise at all. The Port Authority is the worst culprit, but transit agencies in general in the NYC area lack any sort of regional vision. If anything, the Port Authority should take the LEAD in establishing a regional vision, since it's a bi-state agency, but instead the Port Authority has placed its customers/passengers literally last on the list of priorities.

So, so, so disappointing. I hate the Port Authority so much. I hope it's forced to dissolve at some point in my life. I will throw a large party.

Posted on: 2014/9/15 14:10
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Connect PATH to 6 train, or $4 billion MALL?
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No surprise as to which we are getting!

http://newyorkyimby.com/2014/09/the-p ... 012ddf3f53-105542349&ct=t(YIMBY_News_Sep_13th_2014)

Posted on: 2014/9/15 14:03
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