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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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I'm still trying to figure out if there is case law that defines Spontaneous Memorials as protected speech. And if so, under what terms? Are they never to be removed? Can I post whatever I want all over town? Memorials to Osama Bin Laden, etc? Actually interested. Let me know.

Posted on: 2014/7/17 23:37
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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To who benefits the crime? At this point I only see the drug and gang dealers. They are the ones who manipulate perception and benefits from community in-fighting including on this tread. They are the ones to target. We rise or fall together.

Posted on: 2014/7/17 1:41
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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JadedJC wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
There is no one who would fault Fulop over this except people who would not vote for him anyway and are looking for political points.


I voted for him.


I should have phrased it looking towards the future. Anyway that isn't the point. Fulop reacted to the national media attention and most sensible people are happy he ordered the removal of this trash. Which was on private property.

And all of this is moot because it's back.

Posted on: 2014/7/17 1:32
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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JCMan8 wrote:
There is no one who would fault Fulop over this except people who would not vote for him anyway and are looking for political points.


I voted for him.

Posted on: 2014/7/17 1:26
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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JadedJC wrote:
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user1111 wrote:
Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop says he ordered police to take down the sidewalk memorial to cop-killer Lawrence Campbell because it was a threat to public safety.

?I made the decision,? he said. ?This is in the best interest of safety until things can calm down. That?s where we are.?

It is a perfectly understandable reaction from this heartbroken rookie mayor. But it is also exactly the wrong reaction.

For one, this could just as easily inflame tensions. Who knows how the deranged souls who put up this memorial will react? This patch of sidewalk could become a new flash point.

But the bigger problem is that Fulop is using the machinery of government to favor one type of speech over another.

More


Fulop fumbled this one. If he had just left the stupid memorial alone, the story would have died out after just one news cycle. By ordering the police to take it down (and bragging about it in a press release), he not only overreached, but he likely antagonized a neighborhood where suspicion and mistrust of the police already ran deep. Worst of all, his actions have shifted the story away from Officer Santiago and his sacrifice - and made it all about Campbell and his crazy family/supporters, extending that shelf life beyond one news cycle. Fulop should have realized that you don't fight crazy, you ignore crazy. The mayor shouldn't have dignified the Campbell memorial with any sort of reaction. Instead, he should have doubled down on Officer Santiago's story, talking up his life and deeds.


There is no one who would fault Fulop over this except people who would not vote for him anyway and are looking for political points.

It was the media that publicized this garbage to begin with, and Fulop was reacting to the national scorn we were receiving. Certain segments of society are truly sick.

Anyway, all of this is moot because the "people" put it back up.

Posted on: 2014/7/17 1:23
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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user1111 wrote:
Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop says he ordered police to take down the sidewalk memorial to cop-killer Lawrence Campbell because it was a threat to public safety.

?I made the decision,? he said. ?This is in the best interest of safety until things can calm down. That?s where we are.?

It is a perfectly understandable reaction from this heartbroken rookie mayor. But it is also exactly the wrong reaction.

For one, this could just as easily inflame tensions. Who knows how the deranged souls who put up this memorial will react? This patch of sidewalk could become a new flash point.

But the bigger problem is that Fulop is using the machinery of government to favor one type of speech over another.

More


Fulop fumbled this one. If he had just left the stupid memorial alone, the story would have died out after just one news cycle. By ordering the police to take it down (and bragging about it in a press release), he not only overreached, but he likely antagonized a neighborhood where suspicion and mistrust of the police already ran deep. Worst of all, his actions have shifted the story away from Officer Santiago and his sacrifice - and made it all about Campbell and his crazy family/supporters, extending that shelf life beyond one news cycle. Fulop should have realized that you don't fight crazy, you ignore crazy. The mayor shouldn't have dignified the Campbell memorial with any sort of reaction. Instead, he should have doubled down on Officer Santiago's story, talking up his life and deeds.

Posted on: 2014/7/17 1:13
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop says he ordered police to take down the sidewalk memorial to cop-killer Lawrence Campbell because it was a threat to public safety.

?I made the decision,? he said. ?This is in the best interest of safety until things can calm down. That?s where we are.?

It is a perfectly understandable reaction from this heartbroken rookie mayor. But it is also exactly the wrong reaction.

For one, this could just as easily inflame tensions. Who knows how the deranged souls who put up this memorial will react? This patch of sidewalk could become a new flash point.

But the bigger problem is that Fulop is using the machinery of government to favor one type of speech over another.

More

Posted on: 2014/7/16 21:37
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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JCMan8 wrote:

All of this is to reiterate that I think the approximately 75% black fatherless rate is one of the single biggest preventable social problems currently facing this country. I don't know what the solution is, or how to alleviate it, but it is very disheartening to me that we cannot even begin to address the problem (just look at the NJ News reporter). I think an open dialogue on this issue would go a long way towards finding a solution.


The problem with numbers like this is people simply latch on to the numbers then draw their own conclusions about root causes and quick-fix solutions. Poverty/low social support, lack of jobs - leads to petty crime, gang membership, excessive jail time, family break-up, difficultly of ex-cons finding a job, poor schools, latch-key kids...and the cycle keeps repeating. The solution is likely a little more complex than handing out the condoms - better family welfare support, overhaul of the criminal system, prisoner re-entry programs, better community policing, anti-gang initiatives, jobs, better education spend...not a simple list to tackle.

Posted on: 2014/7/16 15:40
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Well, it is no longer accessible as of 11 AM.

Posted on: 2014/7/16 15:19
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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mwa7368 wrote:
Nope it's up now. I reported it as harassing me or someone I know. We'll see if they take it down. I would be surprised if they do.

Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

MikeyTBC wrote:
Quote:

caj11 wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.


The saddest thing is that the page already has 312 likes, as of a few minutes ago. Keep it classy, JC!



It will be close to 5k in a day or so...


Are you one of those "likes?"


I highly doubt that User is but it seems that Facebook itself is by refusing to remove it, claiming it doesn't violate their community standards. As far as this situation goes, I feel that if FB isn't against that page, it's supporting it.


Thanks! FB has removed the page.


I reported it, but was told by FB that this page "does not violate their community standards" so they will not take it down.

Posted on: 2014/7/16 14:52
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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nyrgravey9 wrote:
Ahhh and now a news reporter has been suspended for speaking his mind on this topic:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/ ... utm_campaign=ShareButtons

Keep digging your goddamn heads in the sand people. Keep firing the people with opinions who aren't afraid to speak the truth on this topic.

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

Good. This was NJ12, our dedicated local news source, not Fox News (although he'll probably be snapped up by Fox before too long...).

If anyone wants to do serious investigative reporting on the connection between poverty and crime in 2014, more power to them - it's an important topic that has been hi-jacked by the right. If they just want to bloviate on camera, they deserve to be canned.

Posted on: 2014/7/16 2:41
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Nope it's up now. I reported it as harassing me or someone I know. We'll see if they take it down. I would be surprised if they do.

Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

MikeyTBC wrote:
Quote:

caj11 wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.


The saddest thing is that the page already has 312 likes, as of a few minutes ago. Keep it classy, JC!



It will be close to 5k in a day or so...


Are you one of those "likes?"


I highly doubt that User is but it seems that Facebook itself is by refusing to remove it, claiming it doesn't violate their community standards. As far as this situation goes, I feel that if FB isn't against that page, it's supporting it.


Thanks! FB has removed the page.

Posted on: 2014/7/16 2:27
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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We should have a special memorial to acknowledge all city law enforcement personal that made the ultimate sacrifice - I'd like it to be similar to a war memorial and located near the Courts or City Hall or JCPD HQ and accessible to the public at all hours.

Now thats what I'd be more then happy to donate funds or help with the construction

Posted on: 2014/7/16 2:16
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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JerseyCityFrankie wrote:
The American flag at the PATH plaza at Journal Square was NOT at half mast when I walked by Tuesday night, WTF?


Technically that needs to be ordered by the governor. Although it doesn't sound like proper protocol is being is being followed anyway, because the flag shouldn't be up at night, unless properly illuminated (maybe the JS flag is, I don't know)

http://www.legion.org/flag/faq

Posted on: 2014/7/16 1:06
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Quote:

MikeyTBC wrote:
Quote:

caj11 wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.


The saddest thing is that the page already has 312 likes, as of a few minutes ago. Keep it classy, JC!



It will be close to 5k in a day or so...


Are you one of those "likes?"


I highly doubt that User is but it seems that Facebook itself is by refusing to remove it, claiming it doesn't violate their community standards. As far as this situation goes, I feel that if FB isn't against that page, it's supporting it.


Thanks! FB has removed the page.

Posted on: 2014/7/16 0:45
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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The American flag at the PATH plaza at Journal Square was NOT at half mast when I walked by Tuesday night, WTF?

Posted on: 2014/7/16 0:26
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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OneSkirt wrote:
And the scum have put the memorial back up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic ... -dismantled-overnight.htm


Big deal. Let them have it.

Posted on: 2014/7/16 0:22
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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I would think that their first amendment got fully "executed" including the victim. Now let's move on and remove that crap. Thanks Mr Mayor for clearing this out.

Here is another useful thing to do: https://www.facebook.com/events/268569270013511/

Posted on: 2014/7/16 0:19
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Posted on: 2014/7/16 0:04
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Quote:

caj11 wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.


The saddest thing is that the page already has 312 likes, as of a few minutes ago. Keep it classy, JC!



It will be close to 5k in a day or so...


Are you one of those "likes?"


I highly doubt that User is but it seems that Facebook itself is by refusing to remove it, claiming it doesn't violate their community standards. As far as this situation goes, I feel that if FB isn't against that page, it's supporting it.

Posted on: 2014/7/15 20:20
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.


The saddest thing is that the page already has 312 likes, as of a few minutes ago. Keep it classy, JC!



It will be close to 5k in a day or so...


Are you one of those "likes?"

Posted on: 2014/7/15 20:03
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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How is the boys and girls club doing in terms of mentors mentees and fundraising? Some kids are irredeemable while others aren't and just need to be put in right direction and path. I also think a PAL model might help to foster a less us versus them mentality. Pebble makes cogent points. As someone who grew up in the burbs, it was white kids doing drugs and drinking with impunity much like heroin problem now which now advocates treatment and kindness bC the users and dealers are no longer people of color. http://brothawolf.wordpress.com/2012/ ... /pathologizing-blackness/

Posted on: 2014/7/15 20:00
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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JCMan8 wrote:
I don't know if I would call this poverty as much as the reality for 99% of people in any society. Unless you are independently wealthy, you will have to work to support yourself and your children. So I don't see any feasible way around the lone parent having to spend large periods being absent, even with government assistance.

Yes, we all work to sustain our lifestyle. However, those that are not impoverished can generally do this with a single job. They don?t need to have two jobs in order to feed their children and themselves.

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Even in the divorce situation you mentioned, there is usually a father in the picture who (many times but not always) contributes financially. And has visitation, providing some social structure. So I don't think it is comparable to being raised without a father.

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. However, the financial support enables the mother to be around more and raise the child. Once again, it?s a poverty problem in which the father is simply unavailable to support.

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Also consider the emotional repercussions. Although I have not experienced it personally, I have heard stories (which are very plausible) of such children feeling unwanted and abandoned, which leads to anger. I'd imagine this kind of internal emotional turmoil might be something that one constantly thinks about. This may be found in divorced kids as well but obviously to a lesser degree, as the father is usually still in the picture.

Again, there are a lot possible causes. Simply saying that no father is the root is far too simplistic.

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Finally, I see your point about nature vs nurture but to me this seems to be treading on the dangerous ground that these kids were essentially born irredeemable, based on the quality of their parents. I think that many kids are born with a clean slate, and nearly all are capable of having the good brought out of them through proper raising. Which would lead to them being productive members of society.

Studies on this demonstrate that Nature over Nurture is very real. However, nobody believes it for fear that they could be wrong, which is fine.

I am also going to state that nobody believes that these children are ?lost causes.? The argument is merely that more work is needed to make it work for them as much as those with more means.

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
All of this is to reiterate that I think the approximately 75% black fatherless rate is one of the single biggest preventable social problems currently facing this country. I don't know what the solution is, or how to alleviate it, but it is very disheartening to me that we cannot even begin to address the problem (just look at the NJ News reporter). I think an open dialogue on this issue would go a long way towards finding a solution.

The reporter went in a stupid direction since he decided to narrow down the issue to a single race relation problem. The issue of fatherless children is a poverty issue, not a black issue. Blacks are disproportionately impoverished and thus it is easy (and lazy) to simply say ?this is a black problem.? Hence, the reporter was suspended.

As for stopping this? well, educate boys to stop knocking up girls or get girls to insist on condoms. You certainly aren?t going to get people to stop having sex. You are also not going to resolve the problem with absurdly stupid abstinence initiatives.

Posted on: 2014/7/15 19:37
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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This isn't a first amendment issue. It's a shrine on a sidewalk. It can be removed, I think it can be called a public nuisance or something. I read an article on a shrine in Prospect Park where some kid got hit by a car and people piled tons of stuff on the sidewalk where it happened. The city removed it and people freaked out.

Anyway, whenever JC is on national news, it's never about anything good. This whole thing is embarrassing for the city and is just plain horrible.

Posted on: 2014/7/15 19:18
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Fulop did a good job cleaning out the 'shrine'.

Posted on: 2014/7/15 18:17
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

user1111 wrote:
Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.


The saddest thing is that the page already has 312 likes, as of a few minutes ago. Keep it classy, JC!



It will be close to 5k in a day or so...

Posted on: 2014/7/15 18:12
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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user1111 wrote:
Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.


The saddest thing is that the page already has 312 likes, as of a few minutes ago. Keep it classy, JC!


Posted on: 2014/7/15 18:01
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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user1111 wrote:
Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.


No shit. Unlike the litter on the public street, Fulop has no jurisdiction here. But it wouldn't surprise me if FB takes down the page themselves.

Posted on: 2014/7/15 17:51
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Lets see Fulop take this down

NOT gonna happen.

Posted on: 2014/7/15 17:14
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Re: In Jersey City, a sidewalk memorial honors a cop killer
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Pebble wrote:
Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

Pebble wrote:


Do you really believe the issue is the lack of a father figure?? I am not going to argue that a dual parent home isn?t beneficial, but you walk a dangerous route claiming that gangs, violence and everything else that is wrong in the world comes down to single mother homes.



Yes, I do believe this is a large part of the issue. I read a quote recently where someone made the argument that much of gang life comes down to members essentially filling in the void for a father figure. The gang rewards and punishes, just as a father would. The gang also provides the cohesive social structure that otherwise would be found in a two parent house.

Under the current situation, the mother works two jobs to get by while the child returns to the empty house. This becomes untenable over time, so the child joins a gang which fills in the parenting gap, to disastrous results, eventually creating a Lord of the Flies type situation.

I really do believe that things would be a lot better for all involved if that 75% fatherless figure was greatly reduced.

I won't disagree that two parents, working in unison, can provide a happy, healthy and productive structure that encourages good behavior. However, your key notation there wasn't that there was one parent. It was that there was one parent which was also largely absent; "the mother works two jobs to get by while the child returns to the empty house". It seems to me that you recognize the problem isn't the lone parent. It is the issue of poverty and the lengths at which one parent must go in order to try and provide for that child.

Yes, studies were done which can link fatherless children to rudderless kids. However, is it not more plausible, even more probable, that the type of fathers which would abandon their children will not be producing offspring which could be all that productive to begin with? This is the nature v. nurture argument.


I don't know if I would call this poverty as much as the reality for 99% of people in any society. Unless you are independently wealthy, you will have to work to support yourself and your children. So I don't see any feasible way around the lone parent having to spend large periods being absent, even with government assistance.

Even in the divorce situation you mentioned, there is usually a father in the picture who (many times but not always) contributes financially. And has visitation, providing some social structure. So I don't think it is comparable to being raised without a father.

Also consider the emotional repercussions. Although I have not experienced it personally, I have heard stories (which are very plausible) of such children feeling unwanted and abandoned, which leads to anger. I'd imagine this kind of internal emotional turmoil might be something that one constantly thinks about. This may be found in divorced kids as well but obviously to a lesser degree, as the father is usually still in the picture.

Finally, I see your point about nature vs nurture but to me this seems to be treading on the dangerous ground that these kids were essentially born irredeemable, based on the quality of their parents. I think that many kids are born with a clean slate, and nearly all are capable of having the good brought out of them through proper raising. Which would lead to them being productive members of society.

All of this is to reiterate that I think the approximately 75% black fatherless rate is one of the single biggest preventable social problems currently facing this country. I don't know what the solution is, or how to alleviate it, but it is very disheartening to me that we cannot even begin to address the problem (just look at the NJ News reporter). I think an open dialogue on this issue would go a long way towards finding a solution.

Posted on: 2014/7/15 17:07
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