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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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We have a real and serious unemployment issue in the US, with some States and Cities with a major crisis on their hands - it would surprise me if some of the applicants were unemployed college and university graduates.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 15:08
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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The last time McDonalds had a big job fair they turned down over 900,000 applicants.

All who were chomping at the bit for a job.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/mcdo ... nimum-wage-part-time-jobs

Posted on: 2014/5/23 12:59
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Back when textile manufacturers started to move their operations to southern states, the right wing blamed unions and said that it showed the superiority of "right to work" states. Those manufacturers then bolted from the south to China as soon as it was feasible for them to do so, even though there was no pesky union to make sure workers got decent wages in the south.

Now fast food executives are solemnly warning that if workers make too much, they will resort to robots making and serving food. But as soon as it's feasible they will anyway because they will still save money even with the ridiculously low minimum wage.

If a businessperson wants to move their operations to a place where they can treat workers poorly, I say good riddance.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 12:48
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
There were more then 68,000,000 smokers and we had doctors, dentists and politicians endorses how great it is. The only reason we don't have a prohibition yet, is the taxes it generates and the campaign funds donated by the tobacco industry.
We all know smoking kills and causes major health issues, yet we still make it available - If cocaine could be taxed, it too would be made available. As I said governments and legislators are lobbied and 'owned' by the corporate world not the voice of the common man that voted them into office.
It would be interesting to know (FOI) how much campaign funding comes from McD's ! I guess campaign donations have more 'pulling power' then a vote!

How true F-A-B just look at the Triple Crown specifically California Chrome. CC just won two out of the three major horse races, which leaves The Belmont. CC uses tape on his nose for proper air passage but this method is banned in New York racing. The New York racing commission made an exception CC can race. Could you imagine if the rule was, upheld knowing that a triple crown win was around the corner? Lots of money would be lost and interest in the race would be moot.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 11:40
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Monroe wrote:
I must say, though, I'm disheartened when I read here about the people who can't get a leg up-and then I recall that in this terrible winter, I didn't see a single teen or young adult walking around with a shovel looking to make a buck doing a driveway, a sidewalk, clear out a car-and I'm not downtown, when I'm in JC I'm near BeLa/Greenville area.
I used to live for snowy days when I could walk around and make a buck as a teen-and I didn't start going to paying customers until after I did a few elderly neighbors that my dad MADE me do for free. That all went into my personal karma bank, I guess, although it annoyed me at the time.
So where's the work ethic? Why did three teens ask me the other day if I had any spare change?

Perhaps the today's teens are not bonded or the property owners are worried about the risk factor their liability insurance rates. Also are you sure those 3 teens weren't about to mug you ? Plus I would not give money to strangers especially children.


Bonded? Who the hell asks a kid offering to shovel a walk if they're bonded?? Does anyone ask day laborers if they're bonded when they pick them up at Home Depot???

As far as about to mug me, I did think about it, especially when they split 2 on one side of me, the other on the other side-but it was broad daylight and on a somewhat busy street, and I just said 'not today' and kept walking. It may have helped that I don't appear to be an easy mark . . .

Posted on: 2014/5/23 11:40
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Monroe wrote:
I must say, though, I'm disheartened when I read here about the people who can't get a leg up-and then I recall that in this terrible winter, I didn't see a single teen or young adult walking around with a shovel looking to make a buck doing a driveway, a sidewalk, clear out a car-and I'm not downtown, when I'm in JC I'm near BeLa/Greenville area.
I used to live for snowy days when I could walk around and make a buck as a teen-and I didn't start going to paying customers until after I did a few elderly neighbors that my dad MADE me do for free. That all went into my personal karma bank, I guess, although it annoyed me at the time.
So where's the work ethic? Why did three teens ask me the other day if I had any spare change?

Perhaps the today's teens are not bonded or the property owners are worried about the risk factor on their liability insurance rates. Also are you sure those 3 teens weren't about to mug you ? Plus I would not give money to strangers especially children.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 11:30
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Top 100 employers in the US - No mention of McDonalds (or any fast food chain) or Walmart ... I wonder why?


http://www.greatplacetowork.com/best- ... -to-work-for#.U361JdKSzKg

http://static.glassdoor.com/static/do ... 14-large.pdf?v=97419387xm

Posted on: 2014/5/23 2:44
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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If McDonalds violated laws on democracy, civil rights, labor laws, or human rights they'd be shut down.

The beauty of a democracy, which you seem blind to, is that as long as you don't violate those laws you can sell a legal product. In fact, our democracy sells products (tobacco, alcohol, and often marijuana) that cause severe damage if abused-or even casually used.

And, in a democracy, you may choose not to purchase any of these legal products and tilt at windmills on a message board.

Of course, your voice is somewhat muted by the 68,000,000 that daily visit McDonalds.



There were more then 68,000,000 smokers and we had doctors, dentists and politicians endorses how great it is. The only reason we don't have a prohibition yet, is the taxes it generates and the campaign funds donated by the tobacco industry.

We all know smoking kills and causes major health issues, yet we still make it available - If cocaine could be taxed, it too would be made available. As I said governments and legislators are lobbied and 'owned' by the corporate world not the voice of the common man that voted them into office.

It would be interesting to know (FOI) how much campaign funding comes from McD's ! I guess campaign donations have more 'pulling power' then a vote!

Posted on: 2014/5/23 2:37
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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owlie wrote:

OMG, they have decent coffee? Since when has their coffee been considered decent? Egg McMuffins are good??? How much do you weigh?


I grab a McMuffin sometime when at the NY office. We are talking about once or twice a month. I don't eat fast food every day (normally bring lunch.... I'm frugal). I always thought McDonalds coffee was decent.. I liked it better than Starbucks which IMO you pay way too much for something that tastes burnt.

However I was fat. Put on a ton of weight after breaking my shoulder. Once my arm became functional again (lots of nerve damage.. took a few years) I dropped 25 lbs: Exercise, supplements*, and diet changes. What really helped was cutting waaay back on sugar and carbs. I found out eating more protein and fat gave me more energy and I ate a whole lot less.

* off topic... but for anyone here who had elevated cholesterol or are suffering from plateauing in your exercise routine: Pantethine. it's a form of B5. Made a big difference for me.
I admire your weight loss. Now, keep away from Carbdonalds!

Posted on: 2014/5/23 2:24
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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If McDonalds violated laws on democracy, civil rights, labor laws, or human rights they'd be shut down.

The beauty of a democracy, which you seem blind to, is that as long as you don't violate those laws you can sell a legal product. In fact, our democracy sells products (tobacco, alcohol, and often marijuana) that cause severe damage if abused-or even casually used.

And, in a democracy, you may choose not to purchase any of these legal products and tilt at windmills on a message board.

Of course, your voice is somewhat muted by the 68,000,000 that daily visit McDonalds.


Posted on: 2014/5/23 2:22
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Those who claim that bootstrapping your way out of poverty is impossible nowadays are alarmists of the worst kind... you are acting as apologists for a culture of entitled, lazy individuals. How can you make such a claim, when you have millions of immigrants, many (most?) here illegally, risking life and person, to try and eke an living. And, guess what? The vast majority of them work more than one job, and they send money back to their families in their home countries, and for those who have family here, they are often instilling on their kids the importance of getting ahead and working hard. As others have pointed out, the current generation of teens simply doesn't want to work jobs, especially those they deem beneath them. That's a CHOICE.

By the way, this topic reminds me of something I saw in Germany a few years ago. While working there, I was watching a local news segment on unemployment. After talking about how so many crops were going to waste because there wasn't enough people to work the fields, the reporter asked a few unemployed Germans why they weren't taking those jobs, and their responses were: crop harvesting jobs are for Poles, and working out on a field was beneath Germans. And, besides, they could get more money from the government on unemployment benefits than working those jobs. It was a bit sad, and appalling. I think a similar dynamic is at play here: too many people find it easier to NOT work and relay on handouts.

I just don't see why McD's should be expected to pay $15/hr. If you need more money, get a better job, or get a second job.
You are so right.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 2:21
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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I'm for capitalism, however I'm also for democracy, civil rights, labor laws and human rights. We (I'm assuming all JClisters) are fortunate to have an aptitude to learn, have an education and a well paying job, that many don't.

Its 2014 and I believe if you work a full day / week, then your financial reimbursement should not be below or on the poverty borderline, otherwise what's the incentive to work - a government handout then becomes cost-effective with no commuter costs to get to work, no attire to keep clean, no risk of abuse or stress by management or customers etc etc. I'm simply stating that you need to pay people a reasonable wage

I recall a time when friends that included architects and structural engineers were driving cabs in NY to put food on the table when work wasn't around and said that they had never had to work so hard and tolerate so much from their customers for so much less

Even with a higher education, it doesn't guarantee an above minimum wage job or even if that job will exist in the future. Siht people complain about childcare costs and those workers are often paid minimum wages to look after the most important thing in one's lives; their kids!

I hope those all for capitalism without controls or any strict government regulations on wages and conditions that would like to see an end to any labor laws, never lose your jobs, forced into foreclosures or run out of income insurance.

I believe McD's is a corporate greedy, unethical, unconscionable bully that has no respect for their staff unless its not legislated or the food they provide if its not legislated.

It makes sense that in Europe and Asia people there are fighting back and the governments are supporting them - that's maybe why some countries force McD's to pay their staff properly - its just sad that our government that we have elected and should be addressing our needs, only listen to corporations that payroll their campaigns; democracy is kicked to the curb for capitalism!

Posted on: 2014/5/23 2:07
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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owlie wrote:

OMG, they have decent coffee? Since when has their coffee been considered decent? Egg McMuffins are good??? How much do you weigh?


I grab a McMuffin sometime when at the NY office. We are talking about once or twice a month. I don't eat fast food every day (normally bring lunch.... I'm frugal). I always thought McDonalds coffee was decent.. I liked it better than Starbucks which IMO you pay way too much for something that tastes burnt.

However I was fat. Put on a ton of weight after breaking my shoulder. Once my arm became functional again (lots of nerve damage.. took a few years) I dropped 25 lbs: Exercise, supplements*, and diet changes. What really helped was cutting waaay back on sugar and carbs. I found out eating more protein and fat gave me more energy and I ate a whole lot less.

* off topic... but for anyone here who had elevated cholesterol or are suffering from plateauing in your exercise routine: Pantethine. it's a form of B5. Made a big difference for me.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 1:50
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Those who claim that bootstrapping your way out of poverty is impossible nowadays are alarmists of the worst kind... you are acting as apologists for a culture of entitled, lazy individuals. How can you make such a claim, when you have millions of immigrants, many (most?) here illegally, risking life and person, to try and eke an living. And, guess what? The vast majority of them work more than one job, and they send money back to their families in their home countries, and for those who have family here, they are often instilling on their kids the importance of getting ahead and working hard. As others have pointed out, the current generation of teens simply doesn't want to work jobs, especially those they deem beneath them. That's a CHOICE.

By the way, this topic reminds me of something I saw in Germany a few years ago. While working there, I was watching a local news segment on unemployment. After talking about how so many crops were going to waste because there wasn't enough people to work the fields, the reporter asked a few unemployed Germans why they weren't taking those jobs, and their responses were: crop harvesting jobs are for Poles, and working out on a field was beneath Germans. And, besides, they could get more money from the government on unemployment benefits than working those jobs. It was a bit sad, and appalling. I think a similar dynamic is at play here: too many people find it easier to NOT work and relay on handouts.

I just don't see why McD's should be expected to pay $15/hr. If you need more money, get a better job, or get a second job.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 1:48
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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owlie wrote:
I think all McDonalds franchises should be shut down. It's a bad product. It hurts people.


They have decent coffee and the egg McMuffins are good.


OMG, they have decent coffee? Since when has their coffee been considered decent? Egg McMuffins are good??? How much do you weigh?

Posted on: 2014/5/23 1:27
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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I could be wrong, but I see that the newer generation nowadays are so "entitled"!


When I was a teen and still in public school, the teachers and administrators would harp on the parents to not have us get summer or after-school jobs. Because we would just spend the money on drugs and besides, we had our whole lives to work.

Better to have us enrolled in summer and after-school programs (sports, arts, etc...).

Thankfully, my parents didn't listen and I was allowed to get a job at a seafood wholesaler / retailer (sports and anything that made the school day longer was not my thing). I would put the two years I worked as one of the best educational experiences of my youth and the freedom of having my own $$$ was priceless. This was back in the mid 80s. The economy was great, jobs were available, and NJ hadn't been flooded by illegals to the level today. Teenagers back then worked retail, did landscaping, construction labor, etc.

Possible not 'entitlement' but crappy economy, changing technology, new government mandated costs, cheap illegal (adult) labor have made teenagers invalid as entry level workers.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 1:17
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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I think all McDonalds franchises should be shut down. It's a bad product. It hurts people.


They have decent coffee and the egg McMuffins are good.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 1:05
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Knucklehead, this idea of good and bad capitalism means zilch in what we call the real world. Is it illegal what they do? If so, then get someone to do something about it.

If its not illegal to be a "bad" capitalist, that's the responsibility of your politicians. So cry them a river.

This idea of good and bad corporations is truly bubble boy mentality. I bet you think corporations pay taxes too right!? Ha!!

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Monroe wrote:
Don't like capitalism? Row a boat over to Cuba, where EVERYONE HAS A LOUSY QUALITY OF LIFE EXCEPT THE POLITICIANS.

Because that's where Marxist economics leads you. Want to pay someone $15/hour to flip burgers?

Open up your own burger shop and do it! Just do it! Don't whine about what other people should do with their money.

God, what a bunch of silly, entitled whiner/losers with no solutions other than to reach into other peoples pockets.

Luckily I can afford to be amused by the bleating.


Knuckle-head ... You obviously live in a bubble with no social conscience where you believe its ok to prey on others ... There is good capitalism and bad ... McDonalds and Walmart are clear examples of bad.

You need to change your avatar name to "bubble-boy"

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Posted on: 2014/5/23 0:35
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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I could be wrong, but I see that the newer generation nowadays are so "entitled"! They're too "good/cool/smart/etc" to actually work and earn money. They want money handed to them!!!

Alright - the above statement is perhaps a bit too extreme, but there's truth to that! Looks at the different attitude / behavior between kids born/raised here, and immigrant kids. That's why secretly I'm afraid the US's future is not as bright as the past - no wonder other countries are over taking us in many areas.

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Monroe wrote:
I'm quite charitable, especially to disabled veterans and recovering substance abusers specifically, along with donations to my church.

I must say, though, I'm disheartened when I read here about the people who can't get a leg up-and then I recall that in this terrible winter, I didn't see a single teen or young adult walking around with a shovel looking to make a buck doing a driveway, a sidewalk, clear out a car-and I'm not downtown, when I'm in JC I'm near BeLa/Greenville area.

I used to live for snowy days when I could walk around and make a buck as a teen-and I didn't start going to paying customers until after I did a few elderly neighbors that my dad MADE me do for free. That all went into my personal karma bank, I guess, although it annoyed me at the time.

So where's the work ethic? Why did three teens ask me the other day if I had any spare change?




Posted on: 2014/5/23 0:22
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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I'm quite charitable, especially to disabled veterans and recovering substance abusers specifically, along with donations to my church.

I must say, though, I'm disheartened when I read here about the people who can't get a leg up-and then I recall that in this terrible winter, I didn't see a single teen or young adult walking around with a shovel looking to make a buck doing a driveway, a sidewalk, clear out a car-and I'm not downtown, when I'm in JC I'm near BeLa/Greenville area.

I used to live for snowy days when I could walk around and make a buck as a teen-and I didn't start going to paying customers until after I did a few elderly neighbors that my dad MADE me do for free. That all went into my personal karma bank, I guess, although it annoyed me at the time.

So where's the work ethic? Why did three teens ask me the other day if I had any spare change?




Posted on: 2014/5/23 0:19
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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While all of your arguments make sense in their own right, NONE of them justifies why jobs such as flipping burgers or working as a cashier should be considered (and be paid as) a full time job (to even support one grown person, not to mention support families of 4, 5, 6, etc).

All of your arguments point to issues in our existing society, some / many are results of bigger issues such as corporate greed, our government being run by lobbysts and big corps, etc etc etc.

Lastly, even though there's some truth to the statement that "it's a misconception that one can simply bootstrap their way to a better life", I have to say that I strongly believe everyone can, and everyone has a chance - I also strongly object that this misconception should be used to feed and flame mediocrity (which many people use as a excuse, oh how convenient!).

I speak from experience as a second generation immigrant, where I see my parents work their asses off to provide food and shelter, never complained, and never used any excuses - while I see native-born and native-educated Americans just contend taking handouts, and "working" the system. They both gave up their comfortable lucrative jobs back home to come to this country and work in menial jobs (car mechanic for my dad who used to be a manager, and sewing clothes at 34th street for my mom who used to be an accountant). So I know anyone can obtain a better life - you just need to have enough incentive and drive.

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score09 wrote:

Lol, we see this argument all the time and it is in my opinion just ludicrous. It is so goody two shoes, make me want to puke!

First, our people need JOBS and our country's civic duty is to take of the citizenry, not the corporate elite.

Second, this corporation's stock price has QUINTUPLED since 2003. Who here among us here is seeing any profit from that?

Third, this corporation IS BEING SUBSIDIZED BY TAXPAYERS since so many of its employees are forced to apply for governmental benefits.

Lastly, this argument assumes the fallacy that one can simply bootstrap their way to a better life, which has already been debunked by many pundits many times over. There is a transaction earlier in this thread that has already addressed and debunked this tired, old argument.

Please.

Posted on: 2014/5/23 0:09
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Monroe wrote:
Don't like capitalism? Row a boat over to Cuba, where EVERYONE HAS A LOUSY QUALITY OF LIFE EXCEPT THE POLITICIANS.

Because that's where Marxist economics leads you. Want to pay someone $15/hour to flip burgers?

Open up your own burger shop and do it! Just do it! Don't whine about what other people should do with their money.

God, what a bunch of silly, entitled whiner/losers with no solutions other than to reach into other peoples pockets.

Luckily I can afford to be amused by the bleating.


Knuckle-head ... You obviously live in a bubble with no social conscience where you believe its ok to prey on others ... There is good capitalism and bad ... McDonalds and Walmart are clear examples of bad.

You need to change your avatar name to "bubble-boy"

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Posted on: 2014/5/23 0:09
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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I think all McDonalds franchises should be shut down. It's a bad product. It hurts people.

Posted on: 2014/5/22 23:54
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Second, this corporation's stock price has QUINTUPLED since 2003. Who here among us here is seeing any profit from that?

Third, this corporation IS BEING SUBSIDIZED BY TAXPAYERS since so many of its employees are forced to apply for governmental benefits.
Please.


I suspect more of us benefit w/o even realizing. McDo is probably a component of a lot of 401-Ks etc.

I wonder which is more, the subsidy poorly paid workers receive or the subsidy the middle class receives in the form of home-ownership related deductions, etc.


Posted on: 2014/5/22 23:12
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Don't like capitalism? Row a boat over to Cuba, where EVERYONE HAS A LOUSY QUALITY OF LIFE EXCEPT THE POLITICIANS.

Because that's where Marxist economics leads you. Want to pay someone $15/hour to flip burgers?

Open up your own burger shop and do it! Just do it! Don't whine about what other people should do with their money.

God, what a bunch of silly, entitled whiner/losers with no solutions other than to reach into other peoples pockets.

Luckily I can afford to be amused by the bleating.

Posted on: 2014/5/22 23:10
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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score09 wrote:
Very true FAB!

Not only is it listed on the New York Stock Exchange, it is a DOW component (meaning, it is one of the 30 most capitalized corporations in the land.) So, of course, their obligation is to the SHAREHOLDER and not the employee.

It is a disgusting, repulsive and repugnant symbol of capitalism, and by extension, America, land of the "free," lol.


Its capitalism at its worst

Posted on: 2014/5/22 23:00
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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Very true FAB!

Not only is it listed on the New York Stock Exchange, it is a DOW component (meaning, it is one of the 30 most capitalized corporations in the land.) So, of course, their obligation is to the SHAREHOLDER and not the employee.

It is a disgusting, repulsive and repugnant symbol of capitalism, and by extension, America, land of the "free," lol.

And, I couldn't agree more with the idea that it manipulates employees and the public into thinking it is somehow a benevolent and good influence upon society.

Posted on: 2014/5/22 22:56
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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McD's make a fortune every year and are listed on the NY stock exchange - Thus screwing employees to maximizing their profit margins for shareholders

http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/content ... /McDs2013AnnualReport.pdf

Also students are at school during the day, so the bulk of workers are adults desperate for work. As for the job being deserving of minimal wage, I could name many construction work or 5th Ave shop girl workers that is less demanding then dealing with customer service or cooking burgers

Its corporations like McD and Walmart that exploit their workers and create a false atmosphere within their work force of being a caring and understanding employer which we know is crap - they target young and desperate workers with no real training or promotion programs and rely on poor staff retention and high turn-over to shaft them - They use the economy to their favor to keep wages down while still making huge profits.

Posted on: 2014/5/22 22:48
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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I am not at all in favor of capital punishment since most all violent crime in America is rooted deep within its socioeconomic structure. But, before we fly off the handle, let's just consider the fact that I am simply saying I am opposed to capital punishment.

HOWEVER, there is ONE exception I allow for. That would be for the execution of an American CEO, making a salary of 9.5 million (and God knows how much in stock options) coming out today and saying this:

McDonald's offers ?real careers? and ?competitive wages?, CEO Don Thompson told shareholders on Thursday, as hundreds of protesters chanted for better pay outside the fast-food giant?s annual meeting.

As demonstrators staged a second day of protests against the company?s wage scale outside the company?s suburban Chicago headquarters, Thompson told shareholders: "We believe we pay fair and competitive wages.?

?I know we have people outside,? said Thompson. ?I think that McDonald?s provides more opportunity than any other company ? We continue to believe that we pay fair and competitive wages,? he said.


Go to Hell Donald Thompson. It's time NOW for a public beheading!

Read on...

McDonald's CEO Don Thomspon -- Scumbag Extrodinaire

Posted on: 2014/5/22 22:46
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Re: 2000 march on McDonald's Chicago headquarters
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SRhia wrote:
I think people should realize that working at McD (and any fast food place, coffee place, etc) are NOT full time jobs - well, at least they are NOT suppose to be.

I believe those places are meant to be part time jobs where people (like students) want to make some extra spending money.

Therefore, of course they don't pay a "living wage".

if people want "living wages", then they should get proper full time jobs (and perhaps start with a proper education first, too).


Lol, we see this argument all the time and it is in my opinion just ludicrous. It is so goody two shoes, make me want to puke!

First, our people need JOBS and our country's civic duty is to take of the citizenry, not the corporate elite.

Second, this corporation's stock price has QUINTUPLED since 2003. Who here among us here is seeing any profit from that?

Third, this corporation IS BEING SUBSIDIZED BY TAXPAYERS since so many of its employees are forced to apply for governmental benefits.

Lastly, this argument assumes the fallacy that one can simply bootstrap their way to a better life, which has already been debunked by many pundits many times over. There is a transaction earlier in this thread that has already addressed and debunked this tired, old argument.

Please.

Posted on: 2014/5/22 22:37
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