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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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ProdigalSon wrote:
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bodhipooh wrote:
You are confusing treating all traffic equally and handling of excessive traffic. The former is about not discriminating between traffic from one source and another. The latter is about fairness. ISPs have generally been open to allowing any and all traffic to traverse their networks on the belief that things even out in the end. So, FiOS customers may generate a lot of load and traffic on networks belonging to other ISPs (say Comcast, TWC, etc) and the same holds true for customers of other ISPs. So, the loads ISPs carry and generate for each other are usually equal, more or less. But, what we are talking about here is completely different: Netflix has data centers, but they are not large data carries open to other ISPs. As such, they are generating loads but not carrying any for other ISPs. It is truly an imbalance and they CHOSE to make it worse by increasing the data they generate and push.

As for your company generating a lot of traffic/data, they already pay for that. Every company pays for pushing out data by subscribing to specific bandwidth limits when contracting their Internet service.



Netflix has an agreement with their ISP in most cases I believe it is Cogent, they are the ones that are responsible for the peering not Netflix. Who makes the arbitrary number of what is "excessive"? Furthermore as the end consumer I pay for my 75mbps, I should be getting that throughput or at least close, but by throttling the data from Netflix they are not treating it equal to my refresh of JcList.


ProdigalSon is correct that Cogent is the primary Netflix ISP, essentially acting the middleman between Netflix and the end-user ISPs such as Verizon, Comcast, etc.

Recent traffic reports have shown Cogent at 100% of their capacity for over 12 hours per day. Cogent is the bottleneck.

But of course everybody is pointing the finger at someone else. Long-ish story here if you're interested:

http://arstechnica.com/information-te ... r-slow-netflix-streaming/

Posted on: 2014/2/25 13:22
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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cousin wrote:
This is all very interesting but what I DO know is I pay both Fios and Netflix and still have completely unacceptable service. I already have a full time job (so I can pay these clowns BTW) so I don't need (or want to) figure out what their problems might be or what new technology I need to learn and buy, or who's screwing who; all I know is we pay, month after month and their problems are becoming our problems. I for one will not take it much longer. I think if enough of us let them know that we will not keep paying for unacceptable service things might change. But things will only change when someone starts to lose money.


Which will never happen as long as internet service is a monopoly or duopoly market. Both Verizon and Comcast subscribers had unwatchable Netflix. Don't like it? Too bad, you have nowhere to go.

That's why Bodhipooh thinks I have an "axe to grind with Verizon." It comes from paying for both services and they both fail, and there is no alternative. I'm not interested in excuses that sound like they were written by Verizon's PR team.

Posted on: 2014/2/25 0:02
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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This is all very interesting but what I DO know is I pay both Fios and Netflix and still have completely unacceptable service. I already have a full time job (so I can pay these clowns BTW) so I don't need (or want to) figure out what their problems might be or what new technology I need to learn and buy, or who's screwing who; all I know is we pay, month after month and their problems are becoming our problems. I for one will not take it much longer. I think if enough of us let them know that we will not keep paying for unacceptable service things might change. But things will only change when someone starts to lose money.

Posted on: 2014/2/24 23:36
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Posted on: 2014/2/24 23:06
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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bodhipooh wrote:
You are confusing treating all traffic equally and handling of excessive traffic. The former is about not discriminating between traffic from one source and another. The latter is about fairness. ISPs have generally been open to allowing any and all traffic to traverse their networks on the belief that things even out in the end. So, FiOS customers may generate a lot of load and traffic on networks belonging to other ISPs (say Comcast, TWC, etc) and the same holds true for customers of other ISPs. So, the loads ISPs carry and generate for each other are usually equal, more or less. But, what we are talking about here is completely different: Netflix has data centers, but they are not large data carries open to other ISPs. As such, they are generating loads but not carrying any for other ISPs. It is truly an imbalance and they CHOSE to make it worse by increasing the data they generate and push.

As for your company generating a lot of traffic/data, they already pay for that. Every company pays for pushing out data by subscribing to specific bandwidth limits when contracting their Internet service.



Netflix has an agreement with their ISP in most cases I believe it is Cogent, they are the ones that are responsible for the peering not Netflix. Who makes the arbitrary number of what is "excessive"? Furthermore as the end consumer I pay for my 75mbps, I should be getting that throughput or at least close, but by throttling the data from Netflix they are not treating it equal to my refresh of JcList.

Posted on: 2014/2/24 20:58
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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You are confusing treating all traffic equally and handling of excessive traffic. The former is about not discriminating between traffic from one source and another. The latter is about fairness. ISPs have generally been open to allowing any and all traffic to traverse their networks on the belief that things even out in the end. So, FiOS customers may generate a lot of load and traffic on networks belonging to other ISPs (say Comcast, TWC, etc) and the same holds true for customers of other ISPs. So, the loads ISPs carry and generate for each other are usually equal, more or less. But, what we are talking about here is completely different: Netflix has data centers, but they are not large data carries open to other ISPs. As such, they are generating loads but not carrying any for other ISPs. It is truly an imbalance and they CHOSE to make it worse by increasing the data they generate and push.

As for your company generating a lot of traffic/data, they already pay for that. Every company pays for pushing out data by subscribing to specific bandwidth limits when contracting their Internet service.


Posted on: 2014/2/24 20:10
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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bodhipooh wrote:
JCMan8, you seem to have an axe to grind with Verizon. No one has confirmed what Netflix has agreed to pay Comcast. And, despite your claims, it is NOT an extortion. Simply put, Netflix accounts for the vast majority of traffic traversing the networks of most ISPs. That is a VERY COSTLY proposition. These ISPs are being "forced" to provide a "road" for the Netflix traffic and you don't think they are entitled to some sort of compensation for that? Don't you think that the ISPs are entitled to some sort of compensation for their continuous need to upgrade and improve their networks to be able to handle the additional loads being exerted?

If anything, I think Netflix was the offending party here: they CHOSE to start streaming in a format that requires a lot more bandwidth, and did so fully aware of the consequences (larger streams require more bandwidth, which can lead to performance issues for some customers.) They gambled (but lost) on the assumption that the ISPs would cave to their "option" of storing content within data centers by using Netflix's own content delivery network and appliances. In the game of chicken that ensued, Netflix blinked first. It's that simple.


That said the premise of the internet was that all traffic is treated equally. I don't really care about Netflix as they can clearly afford to pay some type of toll. But once the cable companies get a taste of this sweet new revenue whose to say where they will stop. My company puts a not insignificant amount of data over the internet on a daily basis, our business model is dependent on all data being treated equally. I fully expect to hear from one of these ISP's some day.

Posted on: 2014/2/24 19:28
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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JCMan8, you seem to have an axe to grind with Verizon. No one has confirmed what Netflix has agreed to pay Comcast. And, despite your claims, it is NOT an extortion. Simply put, Netflix accounts for the vast majority of traffic traversing the networks of most ISPs. That is a VERY COSTLY proposition. These ISPs are being "forced" to provide a "road" for the Netflix traffic and you don't think they are entitled to some sort of compensation for that? Don't you think that the ISPs are entitled to some sort of compensation for their continuous need to upgrade and improve their networks to be able to handle the additional loads being exerted?

If anything, I think Netflix was the offending party here: they CHOSE to start streaming in a format that requires a lot more bandwidth, and did so fully aware of the consequences (larger streams require more bandwidth, which can lead to performance issues for some customers.) They gambled (but lost) on the assumption that the ISPs would cave to their "option" of storing content within data centers by using Netflix's own content delivery network and appliances. In the game of chicken that ensued, Netflix blinked first. It's that simple.

Posted on: 2014/2/24 19:06
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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MDM wrote:
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate, Netflix does take up a lot of an ISP's bandwidth, no?


Yes... the general figure used is up to 30% of the load on the networks is Netflix.

I suspect FIOS hasn't been a big money maker for Verizon. They really cut back the network's expansion, focusing on their wireless service instead. I think they expected to make money by selling content, which Netflix in a way competes against.

The only real out is for companies like Netflix and Amazon to build out their own networks.


Well Netflix can do what they did with Comcast. Pay the ISPs their extortion fee and service will speed back up.

Now we can debate whether this truly is an "extortion" fee or if it is justified given the load Netflix places on ISPs' bandwith. But now that they have paid Comcast, I bet Comcast subscribers experience a marked improvement in Netflix service.

So Netflix's out is to pay the big 3-4 ISPs the fees they want. Just sucks because that cost will get passed down to the consumer.


here's more on Netflix's deal with Comcast: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles ... tfordirectconnection.html

Posted on: 2014/2/24 5:20
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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MDM wrote:
Quote:

WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate, Netflix does take up a lot of an ISP's bandwidth, no?


Yes... the general figure used is up to 30% of the load on the networks is Netflix.

I suspect FIOS hasn't been a big money maker for Verizon. They really cut back the network's expansion, focusing on their wireless service instead. I think they expected to make money by selling content, which Netflix in a way competes against.

The only real out is for companies like Netflix and Amazon to build out their own networks.


Well Netflix can do what they did with Comcast. Pay the ISPs their extortion fee and service will speed back up.

Now we can debate whether this truly is an "extortion" fee or if it is justified given the load Netflix places on ISPs' bandwith. But now that they have paid Comcast, I bet Comcast subscribers experience a marked improvement in Netflix service.

So Netflix's out is to pay the big 3-4 ISPs the fees they want. Just sucks because that cost will get passed down to the consumer.

Posted on: 2014/2/23 20:25
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate, Netflix does take up a lot of an ISP's bandwidth, no?


Yes... the general figure used is up to 30% of the load on the networks is Netflix.

I suspect FIOS hasn't been a big money maker for Verizon. They really cut back the network's expansion, focusing on their wireless service instead. I think they expected to make money by selling content, which Netflix in a way competes against.

The only real out is for companies like Netflix and Amazon to build out their own networks.

Posted on: 2014/2/23 20:13
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Just to play devil's advocate, Netflix does take up a lot of an ISP's bandwidth, no?

Posted on: 2014/2/23 20:08
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Last night was pretty bad. My wife gave up on trying to watch something as it hung every few minutes. Looks like the improvement I got by changing the DNS server was only a momentary fluke.

Netflix might have to extend their network right to people's homes. There was a rumor a while back that RCN was for sale. Maybe Netflix should look for a strategic purchase?

Posted on: 2014/2/23 19:49
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Like many of you, Netflix has been near unwatchable for me during the nighttime hours (6-10).

Apparently, Netflix agreed to pay Comcast's extortion fee, so those subscribers will see their service go back to normal. I guess those of us with FIOS are still out of luck. Greedy Verizon...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-5761 ... c-agreement-with-comcast/

Posted on: 2014/2/23 19:01
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Posted on: 2014/2/22 19:25
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Posted on: 2014/2/22 15:27
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Well, the truth comes out, finally. The recent slower performance of Netflix is actually their [Netflix's] own fault. In a bid to force ISPs into adopting their proprietary technology called Open Connect, they have implemented Super HD streams across all ISPs. These streams are more data intensive and only suitable for incredibly large pipes (Google Fiber, for example) or for regular networks that have implemented Netflix's Open Connect network and appliances.

Washington Post article on Open Connect and ISPs

Netflix Info page on Open Connect CDN

Posted on: 2014/2/13 11:21
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Were people on this thread imagining things or is Verizon lying?

Verizon denies reports of Netflix throttling following net neutrality?s death

http://bgr.com/2014/02/05/verizon-throttling-netflix-amazon-aws/

Posted on: 2014/2/6 3:01
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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bodhipooh wrote:
The issues I have with my FiOS router are 99% of the time related to WiFi performance, and I am pretty certain that is due to a combination of the cell phone towers installed on our building and, of course, the multiple other WiFi routers in use by neighbors.


To reduce interference make sure you are using the 5Ghz Band. 2.4Ghz is occupied by way too many technologies.

Posted on: 2014/2/1 6:12
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Tonight (Friday), the movie we're trying to watch is stopping with the "loading please wait" message on Netflix every five minutes. It is frustrating as hell.

Posted on: 2014/2/1 3:37
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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In general, I find that my FiOS, when my computer is hard wired into the router, performs at the advertised speeds. Every now and then (and, by that I mean once every other month) I have to reboot the router to solve slowness / connectivity issues.

The issues I have with my FiOS router are 99% of the time related to WiFi performance, and I am pretty certain that is due to a combination of the cell phone towers installed on our building and, of course, the multiple other WiFi routers in use by neighbors.

Posted on: 2014/1/22 0:34
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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I have noticed a drop in service... Ironically i am constantly being asked to upgrade my Bandwidth.

Posted on: 2014/1/21 18:36
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Vios has definitely not as reliable as it use too be. We have issues with the music channels that freeze up casing us to restart the box sometimes. Arrghhhh!

Posted on: 2014/1/21 11:36
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Geolocation is not used by DNS servers, but rather ADNS servers for specific domains. In essence, geolocation can and will be considered in specific scenarios (I usually work on this on a regular basis for clients in the tri-state area) and it is used as part of something called GSLB (Global Server Load Balancing). You are correct in that this is often used when serving up content (so, CDN servers are a perfect example, as is the case of distributed data centers). Geolocation can be leveraged to respond back with an IP address that is, theoretically, closer to you. The problem is that the ADNS server receiving the request is only able to see the address of the forwarding DNS server. The assumption (a bad one, actually) is that the forwarding DNS server is close to your physical location. When you choose to use a DNS server other than the one assigned by your ISP, you risk being "seen" from a location far from you (in the case of forwarded requests, not when browsing directly to a site). As such, you might end up streaming content from a server that may not be as cose to you as it could be.

The perfect example to illustrate the point above is the scenario of national ISPs who may operate all over the US and which may be using a DNS server located far away (say, you are in NJ, but the ISP may be using servers located in California). In that scenario, your forwarded DNS request may look to be coming from California, even though you are located in NJ.

Anyway, even when you take that into consideration, the DNS functionality is not at all responsible for poor network performance. The most important factors in network performance are the underlying quality of the network path itself, any network traffic management taking place, and the actual quality of the network at either end. In theory, even if you are streaming from a far away server, if the network pipe is big enough, you should be OK. If you are experiencing bad performance, do what you can to fix things on your end of things, because the rest is completely out of your hands.

Posted on: 2014/1/20 23:50
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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bodhipooh wrote:
That is simply incorrect. DNS servers do NOT determine which path to take. That is determined by predefined "routes" on the switching equipment "upstream" from you. You are confusing two completely different utilities. A traceroute (tracert in Windows, traceroute in the Unix/Mac world) is a way to see how packets are traversing the network on its way to the final destination. The ONLY thing that DNS does is resolve a hostname (e.g. cnn.com) to an IP address (e.g. 157.166.226.26). Different DNS servers may return different IP addresses if multiple such addresses are assigned to the same record (meaning, a given hostname could be defined as having multiple addresses, just like some hostname are often dynamically resolved to an address based on certain logic/parameters.) In any case, I will say it again DNS had NO BEARING whatsoever on network performance.


So....how does proximity to the DNS server impact which CDN cache server is used then? In theory, I think you are right. But I'm pretty sure IP geolocation can kick-in when using different DNS servers.

Posted on: 2014/1/20 21:33
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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That is simply incorrect. DNS servers do NOT determine which path to take. That is determined by predefined "routes" on the switching equipment "upstream" from you. You are confusing two completely different utilities. A traceroute (tracert in Windows, traceroute in the Unix/Mac world) is a way to see how packets are traversing the network on its way to the final destination. The ONLY thing that DNS does is resolve a hostname (e.g. cnn.com) to an IP address (e.g. 157.166.226.26). Different DNS servers may return different IP addresses if multiple such addresses are assigned to the same record (meaning, a given hostname could be defined as having multiple addresses, just like some hostname are often dynamically resolved to an address based on certain logic/parameters.) In any case, I will say it again DNS had NO BEARING whatsoever on network performance.

Posted on: 2014/1/20 19:58
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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Sometimes different DNS servers resolve to different paths (tracerts) between say the Netflix server and your home PC. A lot of times this can avoid a slow trunk connection. So different DNS servers can make a difference point-to-point to bandwidth. Can't say though whether any I've found are consistently better than others - and I've tried quite a few including opendns, google, verizon, comcast.

Posted on: 2014/1/20 18:59
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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There is absolutely no correlation between broadband bandwidth performance and DNS resolution. The article makes no mention of DNS, and it wouldn't, as that has nothing to do with throttling.

.


I found the article linked to posts where people said they got better performance by chancing the DNS server. I tried it and suddenly I was able to use Netflix again without serious lag issues. I can't explain why it worked.. but it did.

Last night around 9:00 PM I started getting lag issues. However, I noticed speed issues with Fios overall. Running speed tests showed by download speeds were dropping to under 3 mbs at times, even with Netflix turned off. So it wasn't a Netflix only problem like I was having before.

Late this morning, I ran two Netflix streams. The first movie had a brief hiccup, but then ran over an hour at full HD. The second stream on the computer ran well also.

Last week, we were getting lag at all hours of the day, not just at night.

I will see tonight if the lag issues come back during the evening hours.

My blu-ray player is hard wired, so wireless interference is not an issue.

Posted on: 2014/1/20 16:32
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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I had that issue as well but not to this extend. Reloading the movie is symptomatic of issues at Netflix end imho. Aren't they supposed to introduce a new streaming format soon? Maybe this has to do with that.

I signed up for 20 mps with Comcast, I did not sign for 20 mps here and 2 mps there. If they restrict traffic it will be a violation of our agreement.

Posted on: 2014/1/20 13:18
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Re: For those who are having issues with Netflix over FIOS
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watching Netflix via Roku tonight, it stopped and reloaded half a dozen times in a 40-minute show. it does stall every now and then, but tonight was nuts.

Posted on: 2014/1/20 5:14
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