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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I did not write this material, it is available at the Tax Board in Hudson County. You don't like what the information says, so you attack the writer. Personally, it doesn't bother me. However, if I live in Hoboken, I would be bother. Because JC excludes its tax abated properties from the ratable base, Hoboken, which as a population of 50,000 residents pays a higher portion of the County's tax bill. It pays 17.72% this year. JC with a population of 250,000 pays 31.96% We also pay almost double but our population that 5 times greater. If I were a Hoboken resident I would urge Dawn Zimmer to sue JC, because too many tax abated properties are sheltered from the ratable base.

Posted on: 2013/7/11 18:07
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just read an article about Newark lowering taxes due in part to the completion of the reevaluation. Their was a shift from residential to commercial. Article can be found on NJ.com.

Posted on: 2013/7/11 16:29
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Not to mention that people in Crystal Point are eating, drinking, parking, buying all here in JC...and few if any are sending their kids to JC public schools or otherwise sapping the city.

Not to mention that many people with PILOT are actually paying a HIGHER rate than people without it for the same priced property.

Posted on: 2013/7/11 16:17
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
This information comes from the 2012 Abstract of Ratable - County of Hudson. It is used to strike JC budget. Jersey City is now worth $5.8 billion (it was close to $7 billion after the 1988 reval). $4.7 billion is exempted from taxes. From that figure $2.7 billion are tax abated properties, the rest are churches, public properties, schools, and cemeteries. Excluding churches, schools, etc., approximately one - fourth of the city is tax abated. The lower the ratable base the higher the tax rate. Abatements erodes the ratable base causing a higher tax base.


Here you go again with the ratables. Which do you think benefits the city budget more: An empty lot counted as a "ratable" generating perhaps a few thousand dollars a year in tax revenue, or a high-rise like Crystal Point sitting in that lot making north of $1.5 million a year in payments in lieu of tax (and that's a conservative back-of-the-envelope estimate)? And the city doesn't have to share any of the PILOT revenue with the county. It gets to keep and spend the whole pie. Yet with all that influx of PILOT money the past 10 years, the city still managed to outspend itself. WTF were they spending it on? That's the question no one seems to be asking.

Posted on: 2013/7/8 23:26
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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You continue to recite this as though there were no PILOT cashflow to the city. But there is. They may not be ratables but PILOT's are a significant chunk of the budget pool. For most JC property owners, abatements aren't the problem, underpaying Downtown properties like the one you owned driving up the rate is. Had you paid your fair share, 3 or even 4 owners of more modest homes would have seen their taxes drop to their fair share.

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Yvonne wrote:
This information comes from the 2012 Abstract of Ratable - County of Hudson. It is used to strike JC budget. Jersey City is now worth $5.8 billion (it was close to $7 billion after the 1988 reval). $4.7 billion is exempted from taxes. From that figure $2.7 billion are tax abated properties, the rest are churches, public properties, schools, and cemeteries. Excluding churches, schools, etc., approximately one - fourth of the city is tax abated. The lower the ratable base the higher the tax rate. Abatements erodes the ratable base causing a higher tax base.

Posted on: 2013/7/8 22:49
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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This information comes from the 2012 Abstract of Ratable - County of Hudson. It is used to strike JC budget. Jersey City is now worth $5.8 billion (it was close to $7 billion after the 1988 reval). $4.7 billion is exempted from taxes. From that figure $2.7 billion are tax abated properties, the rest are churches, public properties, schools, and cemeteries. Excluding churches, schools, etc., approximately one - fourth of the city is tax abated. The lower the ratable base the higher the tax rate. Abatements erodes the ratable base causing a higher tax base.

Posted on: 2013/7/8 22:08
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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IMO, people should not compare their taxes with those in NYC since those are subsidized by corporations. Taxes in the rest of NY State are not that low compared with Jersey

Posted on: 2013/7/8 16:30
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I agree with those not understanding those bashing the the PILOT.

I was told by the tax assessor herself that the PILOT rate was *MORE* than it would be for someone who purchased a property at my price would pay otherwise. I'm only keeping it because it will protect me down the line. How does that make me a freeloader?

Also, Hoboken announced a tax REDUCTION...that's right...so if their reval ever happens, it won't be as bad. And yet they manage mostly better services.

Simply put, I do not trust JC or most NJ municipal governments to handle my money. The services in JC are simply not correspodent with the tax rate.

The solution isn't to find a different way to generate money- but rather to ask where is my going and why. The recent police retirements should tell us exactly why we should be paying less. Our streets are not made safer by golden parachutes.

Posted on: 2013/7/8 16:27
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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CdeCoincy wrote:
Just a paranoid thought before the morning meds kick in. Is it possible that the reval is being postponed so that the inflated prices paid by yuppies, gays and Australians can be factored in, thus justifying a significant increase in Greenville taxes? (and perhaps lessening the tax burden downtown?)

Am I the only one old enough to remember the basic slogan of 1960s planning: Urban Renewal is Negro Removal.


I don't get the gender preference are they getting a special grant to make them stand out ? If those that did pay inflated prices that the market value in the area will be inflated as well. And if they did pay inflated prices then their mortgages will be under water.

Posted on: 2013/7/5 10:01
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just a paranoid thought before the morning meds kick in. Is it possible that the reval is being postponed so that the inflated prices paid by yuppies, gays and Australians can be factored in, thus justifying a significant increase in Greenville taxes? (and perhaps lessening the tax burden downtown?)

Am I the only one old enough to remember the basic slogan of 1960s planning: Urban Renewal is Negro Removal.


Posted on: 2013/7/5 9:50
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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mwa7368 wrote:
You pay $6500 now which is comparable to non-abated properties but your locked-in for the length of the abatement. 15, 20 yrs. That a huge benefit to you because you are protected from the rate increases such as Healy's double digit hikes in the past few years. In 10 years your going to be winning.


At least the abatements have an expiration date, which is more than can be said at this point for all those homes being undertaxed at their 1987 values. People like Yvonne and Fletch would like everyone to believe that those of us on PILOTs pay no tax. In Yvonne's case it's to deflect attention from the fact that she's paid obscenely low taxes for years on a seven-figure property right on Van Vorst Park, as Brewster has repeatedly pointed out. The tax and sale records are public, and the links were posted on another thread awhile back.

Also, the PILOT doesn't fix your taxes at the same amount for the entire term - I wish that were the case. During the latter half of the abatement period, you're supposed to see a gradual increase as your taxes are normalized. However, I heard through the grapevine that the tax collector had forgotten for years to apply the normalization for some buildings in Newport, and some people were hit with a doubling in tax overnight as they entered the final years of their abatement. Also, when homes come off the abatements, they're assessed the current value - not the value 15, 20 or 30 years earlier. Like I said previously, the PILOT basically shelters me from the lunacy of JC tax hikes and provides some predictability in my costs until I'm nearly done paying my mortgage. I actually would prefer a city income tax - at least if the income ain't there, they can't tax it.

Posted on: 2013/7/3 23:37
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I personally have no problem with the abatements or PILOTs but the numbers that you have don't seems right. If the luxury apartment is paying $5K in taxes that seems too low. I think it's fair to say that a luxury 1 br is easily worth 350,000. that would mean that this example is paying about 1.5% in taxes where the current rate in JC is more like 2%. Fair value taxes would be around 7K.
Also $5500 for a crystal point 1 br unit is crazy low. That should be around 8K at least, if we consider actual value.
You pay $6500 now which is comparable to non-abated properties but your locked-in for the length of the abatement. 15, 20 yrs. That a huge benefit to you because you are protected from the rate increases such as Healy's double digit hikes in the past few years. In 10 years your going to be winning.


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jcguy05 wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Fulop has said during the debates he plans to give abatements to other parts of the city. There will be a backlash if reval happens and taxes are raised substantially then new construction is protected with abatements. This is the reason I believe the reval has been cancelled.


i dont understand why abatement hits such a nerve with people here. The abatement in jersey city is completely different than what's in NY(which is real abatement where you dont pay taxes or pay pennies on dollar).

In JC, for example my 1br condo has abatement, but i am still paying $6500 a year in taxes so is everyone else in my building, and all the other condo buildings. I also own another unit in a similar type "luxury" highrise where there is no abatement, and the regular property tax is about $5000 which is even lower. Even crystal point which caused so much drama for having granted a lower abatement rate, their resident is still paying $5500+ a year for 1br in taxes.

The only thing abatement does is funnel the money to jersey city instead of the state as i understand it, which is beneficial to the city. It's not like anyone is getting a free ride with abatement.

So why is there so much anger towards it?

Posted on: 2013/7/3 19:25
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Yvonne wrote:
Fulop has said during the debates he plans to give abatements to other parts of the city. There will be a backlash if reval happens and taxes are raised substantially then new construction is protected with abatements. This is the reason I believe the reval has been cancelled.


i dont understand why abatement hits such a nerve with people here. The abatement in jersey city is completely different than what's in NY(which is real abatement where you dont pay taxes or pay pennies on dollar).

In JC, for example my 1br condo has abatement, but i am still paying $6500 a year in taxes so is everyone else in my building, and all the other condo buildings. I also own another unit in a similar type "luxury" highrise where there is no abatement, and the regular property tax is about $5000 which is even lower. Even crystal point which caused so much drama for having granted a lower abatement rate, their resident is still paying $5500+ a year for 1br in taxes.

The only thing abatement does is funnel the money to jersey city instead of the state as i understand it, which is beneficial to the city. It's not like anyone is getting a free ride with abatement.

So why is there so much anger towards it?

Posted on: 2013/7/3 17:53
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Yvonne wrote:
Brewster, I paid the taxes the city sent me and I paid on time. However, I did appeal after reval, I received an $375,000 assessment along with a 16,000 tax bill in 1988.


And when you sold the ratio of assessment to value was 14.2. You were actually paying 1% of value when you were theoretically paying 2.2%, and there are plenty of people in JC paying well over 3%. Those people in other wards were paying your fair property tax for you. It's that simple. Why is it they deserve that exactly? Because they weren't as educated and tax savvy as you, and trusted that JC would spread the tax load fairly?

Posted on: 2013/7/2 19:23
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Brewster, I paid the taxes the city sent me and I paid on time. However, I did appeal after reval, I received an $375,000 assessment along with a 16,000 tax bill in 1988.

Posted on: 2013/7/2 17:35
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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rasoszynski wrote:
Did anyone sell their town home in 2010-2011 fearing the reval? How do they feel now that it's on hold especially as housing prices have climbed over the last year?


Actually, Yvonne did just that, after paying obscenely low taxes for decades.

Posted on: 2013/7/2 16:30
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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People were discussing progressive tax ideas, I just added it to the pile. All the concerns you mention are valid and point to the depth of corruption in JC.

To your point that a JC municipal tax would be a competitive disadvantage driving people to Hoboken, it works both ways: How long do you think Hoboken will let us go on without a reval when their reval results might drive people to JC? Maybe this is all part of the plan. In Hoboken, you have new condo owners paying 30K/year prop tax dying to stick it to town house owners paying 18K/year prop tax.

Did anyone sell their town home in 2010-2011 fearing the reval? How do they feel now that it's on hold especially as housing prices have climbed over the last year?

Wait, Hoboken has a taxi authority and JC doesn't? Is that why you can't reliably get a cab in JC? The more you know.

Posted on: 2013/7/2 15:52
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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An income tax in JC would be the greatest thing to ever happen to Hoboken, Union City, Weehawken, and Harrison, among others.

Why do you think people come to JC in large part? To avoid the NYC income taxes.

People have researched this, and the income tax costs more than the property taxes.

And do you really want to trust the city, even with Fulop at the helm, with more money? Do you think the JCPA employee will do a better job giving you a parking ticket because he enjoys his shore house especially much where he keeps his six figure pension?

Will this tax lead to taxi enforcement (which Hoboken does with no income tax)? Will it stop Spectra or the Pulaski shutdown?

Does it do anything for NYC but drive people away?

Posted on: 2013/7/2 14:05
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I agree with the idea of an income tax for JC. Eliminate property taxes but do keep land tax which is lower. NYC also has a sales tax.

Posted on: 2013/7/2 13:31
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I'm in a PILOT and my taxes are still outrageous.

The PILOT holds the taxes to what the owner when the PILOT incepted paid. But now the unit isn't worth as much, despite it recovering some value. The taxes should be about $600 less in a non PILOT building, but I'm not exiting the PILOT so I won't get slammed down the line. If my unit was walking distance away in Hoboken, I would be paying less taxes. Senseless.

Taxes in JC are out of whack with NJ especially when you consider what other towns get. Even in Hoboken, they pay less and manage a taxi authority and municipal garages. We get what? The incinerator authority? Granted other towns also are inconsistent but few are as wasteful.

Perhaps Fulop is going to start slashing waste and then come back to EVERYONE with lower bills.

Also...as to abatements...they SHOULD be given to non-downtown developments...for certain.

Developers don't need incentive to build downtown- it's already popular.

But OTOH, why not induce someone to build luxury condos in the Heights, or Greenville, or Bergen Laffeyette...A) it could improve the neighborhood and B) it will bring in people to share the burden with us, be they wealthy professionals, investors, or whoever...and likely they will not be people adding kids to the system or really using many services....

I think people want to think JC abatements are like NYC abatements where people are living in luxury condos and paying a few hundred bucks a year in taxes. Go Zillow or Trulia any JC PILOT building and learn the truth. The first people who got them in Port Liberte are getting totally killed.

Posted on: 2013/7/2 13:24
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Quote:

rasoszynski wrote:
Let me inject an even less popular idea than Aniara's: A Municipal Income Tax. You don't get much more progressive than that.

Ever wonder how NYC has relatively low property taxes, except on landlords? That's how. Although because NYC is a renter city the increased tax on rental property owners versus owner occupiers is steep and brings in a haul. Does JC do that?

Back to assessment & the reval: How did we figure out the ratio? How do you determine what side of the magic 33 you're on?

Since the Hoboken reval is underway with appraisers currently out in the field what are the chance Hoboken could sue JC to force our reval? Hoboken is tiny, their reval could be done rather quickly.

Thanks,
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Yes, income would be better than a sq ft tax to be sure. In my experience it's not true that the wealthier necessarily live in more space, I'll bet there's more studios Downtown than elsewhere. Most people wouldn't put up with that without a real location incentive.

But property tax is the closest thing we have to a "wealth tax", to really get at the heart of the matter of each paying according to his ability to pay. It's not about charging for what a household uses, it's about getting what is needed to run the city in a progressive way. Otherwise, and I'm sure Boris would love this, we could just divide the whole budget by population and call it a day. Every man, woman and child pay's their 1/255,000th.

It was my understanding that taxes on businesses was what allowed such low residential taxes.

Your ratio is the assessment divided by market value, then multiplied by 100.

Posted on: 2013/7/2 12:03
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Let me inject an even less popular idea than Aniara's: A Municipal Income Tax. You don't get much more progressive than that.

Ever wonder how NYC has relatively low property taxes, except on landlords? That's how. Although because NYC is a renter city the increased tax on rental property owners versus owner occupiers is steep and brings in a haul. Does JC do that?

Back to assessment & the reval: How did we figure out the ratio? How do you determine what side of the magic 33 you're on?

Since the Hoboken reval is underway with appraisers currently out in the field what are the chance Hoboken could sue JC to force our reval? Hoboken is tiny, their reval could be done rather quickly.

Thanks,
Rachel

Posted on: 2013/7/2 10:25
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Aniara wrote:

One solution would be to stop using property value as basis for taxation. No matter how you twist or turn it, property value is a poor indication for how much the municipality spend on services to said property (and its inhabitants). I would suggest that a fair way of valuing a property would by by internal square feet since this is generally a better indicator of government services being provided (trash collection, education, FD, PD etc).

This would still be a progressive taxation since "well off people" tend to live on more square ft then poor people and hence get to pay a higher amount of tax per person.



Current system tells people that as soon as they make their houses better and neighborhood cleaner, the value of their houses will be reassessed and the taxes raised. I mean, - if we want safe and clean streets, the minimal common sense says that we should at least stop punishing those who help clean them up.

Posted on: 2013/7/2 0:38
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I'm aggravated with the stoppage of the reval b/c most of the properties have already looked at. I don't want to deal with that again. Also, sooner orlater a reval has to be done. The can't keep being kicked down the road, that only exacerbates the problem.

Posted on: 2013/7/1 23:15
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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The reval will not be true because one fourth of the city is tax abated which means those properties will not be affected. After all the purpose of a reval is to bring all properties up in order to pay their fair share of taxes. This is part of the reason I am against tax abatements.

Posted on: 2013/7/1 23:05
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Imagine that Fulop finds so many inefficiencies and wasted government money that he is able to roll back some of Healy's tax hikes? Then I might be ok with no reval.

Posted on: 2013/7/1 22:42
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After reading the full threat its clear that there are many sensibly points well argued but also plenty of anger and fear.

Fact remains that a revaluation would cause not just taxes to change across Jersey City, it would also cause house values to rise and fall accordingly. Most of us will probably agree that this is problematic for people who have purchased houses in the past 10 year span.

One solution would be to stop using property value as basis for taxation. No matter how you twist or turn it, property value is a poor indication for how much the municipality spend on services to said property (and its inhabitants). I would suggest that a fair way of valuing a property would by by internal square feet since this is generally a better indicator of government services being provided (trash collection, education, FD, PD etc).

This would still be a progressive taxation since "well off people" tend to live on more square ft then poor people and hence get to pay a higher amount of tax per person.

I'm not naive enough to think that this idea would be liked by anyone, but nevertheless it was worth taking the 3 minutes and type it out :)


Posted on: 2013/7/1 16:34
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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We've been in our condo apartment for 7 years. During this time, our taxes went from $4200 to almost $8000 today. So that's almost 50% in 7 years - our combined family income didn't rise accordingly, not even close. As a matter of fact, I lost my job during the financial crisis. So life is pretty tough.

And with two kids in private school, plus that $8000 tax bill, the argument whether to "burb it or not" is definitely getting more attention in our family.

Posted on: 2013/7/1 16:04
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When I bought my first condo in JC, the tax at the time seemed doable at just over $6,000. I had assumed some tax hikes in line with or just over the rate of inflation. In six years, successive double-digit take hikes by Healy had raised that to $9,000. I wish my income rose as quickly. The fact was, the only way I could continue to afford to live in JC was to ditch that place and buy in a building with a PILOT. At $7,000 for a one-bedroom, I'm still paying quite a bit of tax, but at least I know I'm shielded from crazy annual increases until my mortgage is nearly paid off. Just down the street from my first condo, some d-bag one-percenter had bought an entire brownstone for $1.1 million on which he's paying just over $11,000 in annual tax. He was literally crowing about that. So, yeah, Pebble, f*ck him. If he can afford to pay that much for a home, he can afford to pay double or triple the tax.

Posted on: 2013/7/1 15:30
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CapnJon wrote:
when we bought in the Heights, we were told by the Tax Assessor that our taxes would hold at $2,500 per year for five years. We believed him. Within a few years we were up to $6K annually, and now, almost a decade later, are at more than $7K....


Capn, can you tell us your ratio, assessment/market value?

Pebble: If 2 people bought in Downtown and B-L 25 years ago just after the reval, when the tax rate were all level, the latter is now paying 2 to 3 times the effective tax rate of the former. They didn't "know what they were getting into". They depended on the City to tax them fairly, and the city failed due to the craven cowardice of it's politicians.

This is a regressive tax situation, plain and simple.

Posted on: 2013/7/1 15:18
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