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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Newbie
 
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2013/3/13 12:29 Last Login : 2016/2/16 13:56 From relocating w/i Jersey City ...
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First post here. I've lived in the Paulus hook area for 2.5 years or so, and I am relocating to downtown area (3rd & Coles). I consider myself fortunate that, really by luck on my part (never crossed my mind before Sandy) that I'm a whopping 3-4 feet higher than surrounding areas that were flooded.
I was outside during the height of the Sandy flooding at this exact location: (yes you can call me stupid) Google Maps Link Point B was underwater (as were all points south along the waterfront --- super creepy to see the boats at the marina floating ~8 feet higher than normal), and Google Earth says the elevation there is ~6-7 feet above sea level.. Point A, where I was standing, was high and dry, and Google Earth says the elevation there is ~9-10 feet above sea level. Where I'm moving, or planning to, at least, at 3rd & Coles, Google earth says is 8 feet above sea level. People in the area tell me they were high and dry. Well, maybe not high, but just on the edge of having flooding, but were not flooded at that precise location. That would make this NYT flooding map (which I understand is a best guestimate) inaccurate, if only by a block or so: http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2 ... -after-the-hurricane.html See also this cropped pic of that map:  So ... after all that rambling, my question is this: how accurate is this map? Was 3rd and Coles not-so-high, but still dry? It would be cool if we could crowd source this and mark the true edges of the flooding. Too many little factors/draining, etc. factor into this. Maybe I'm deluding myself, but I think Sandy is as bad as it's ever going to get in the next 30-years or so, flooding-wise, so I'm happy to move to someplace I know was dry during Sandy, even if it was on the edge. I guess another way to restate my question more broadly -- is what is the above-sea-level cut-off in JC that survived and did not survive? Based purely on my observation, I think that number is somewhere between 7-9 feet above sea-level. Any consensus on that? Cross-referencing Google earth and the NYT map, they seem to think the cut-off is 10 feet.
Posted on: 2013/3/13 12:53
Edited by FastDraw on 2013/3/13 13:09:45
Edited by FastDraw on 2013/3/13 13:12:30 |
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Newbie
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Great. Yeah it looks like the area between Washington and Greene on Sussex is okay on the map and its okay going to see something there. Thanks everyone for the help. I feel at ease now knowing where to look. I'll try to see if its in an evacuation area too.
Posted on: 2013/3/13 12:25
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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it still amazes me that the city is not taken to task for the pathetic state of the sewers. It's tough to get any good data, but I would bet at least half of the houses flooded in Sandy were a result of sewer backups, not surge waters in the street.
The public library on Jersey Ave, whose basement took on tons of sewage water, has cost the taxpayers a pretty penny for example. If the sewers were updated/modern this would not have happened. This issue will only be compounded if all the new development downtown actually occurs. This is a huge issue that ought to be in whatever mayoral debates take place...
Posted on: 2013/3/11 13:38
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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Sussex and Morris are parallel; both east-west. You need to look at the cross street. There is a significant hill in Paulus Hook, with its top around the area of Grand and Washington. The houses that are on that high ground stay drier than ones to the west, closer to Marin. The area to the west is much lower and flooded very badly in Sandy. Corner of Grand & Marin for example, where OLC School is, was a deep lake.
If you're looking on either Sussex or Morris try to stay between Van Vorst or even Warren, and Greene Sts. Also, Sussex is higher and drier than Morris. Still, not all blocks are the same. The western end of Sussex, at Van Vorst and over to the Prep football field, was totally submerged. Cars floating around.
Posted on: 2013/3/11 13:09
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Home away from home
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Sorry. West of Warren.
Posted on: 2013/3/11 4:05
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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Look at the map and take it seriously.
Sussex west of Washington had Garden apts. with over four feet of water in them. All of them.
Posted on: 2013/3/11 2:43
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Newbie
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Thanks for the note. We'll definitely keep weary of that area. Also we noticed that a steakhouse in that area was still shut down after all these months which means not good. Hopefully the area around Sussex and Morris St is a better area to look for apartments that haven't been damaged.
Posted on: 2013/3/11 1:03
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Home away from home
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I think FEMA uses a pretty broad brush when they draw the flood zones. To get precision for a single property it seems like the only route is to get a survey done and, if the engineer says you're above the BFE, request a letter of map amendment from FEMA. If you're close to the line it might have a significant impact on insurance premiums. I haven't done that yet but it's on my to-do list. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/3/10 23:26
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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Good points Brewster.
It's in the interest of the insurers to keep up the appearance that flooding, and not the sewers ,was responsible. And on the matter of inches, I think you are right. But I'd like to hear exactly how FEMA drew their lines, and how they added their wiggle room for a 50-year or 100-year flood. The difference between their map and Sandy/Irene impact is about 6-9 feet. That's the number they need to justify to us.
Posted on: 2013/3/10 18:18
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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You know, from what I've heard, this may not be the case if you can prove it was sewer water and not a street flood. Sewer events are supposed to be covered by homeowners insurance. Sandy was a great case in point, because it was an unusual storm with a huge surge and relatively little rain. Everyone who got water in their basements without water in their streets were incontrovertible victims of the incontinent sewer system, not the mythical underground rivers or other nonsense. That's why it was so stinky, the sewer hadn't been scoured by rainwater before being pushed into our basements by the surge. I haven't spoken yet to an attorney about this as I haven't had material damage, but if I can ever get an engineer to assess my foundation subsidence, I may be going that route. And no, there no water in the street here on 7th, though if the elevation numbers were right, it was only a matter of a few inches more.
Posted on: 2013/3/10 17:57
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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I actually live as far west on 9th pretty much as you can get, between Brunswick and Monmouth. My bad on earlier post about 2007, I meant nothing was flooded East of Monmouth and not West. Simply a typo.
In 2007, basements were flooded on the block. The water didn't rise high enough to flood any ground level floors. Same with Irene. Water will impact basements long before it will touch the ground floors and can get flooded through seepage. Basement damage in the area is effectively uninsurable, so they shouldn't be factor in maps whose primary purpose is to determine insurance level, like the FEMA/NY Times map. At the corner of Brunswick and 9th, the elevation drops by a few feet, so it not surprising to see fire hydrants nearly submerged but houses west of Brunswick untouched. Have another look at the geology.com map I posted, and compare it side-by-side to the NY Times FEMA map. FEMA has drawn the lines closer to the 6m level, whereas my contention is that Sandy was closer to 3m and Irene/2007 somewhere closer to 4m. http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/new-york.shtml http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2 ... -after-the-hurricane.html The lie being peddled here by FEMA (and the insurers) is that Sandy flooded a greater area than it actually did, then use that as a justification to blight a much higher set of property owners with much higher insurance rates. If FEMA and the insurers want to justify 6m or so as the flood zone level, then fine. But they can't and shouldn't use Sandy nor prior flooding as that justification.
Posted on: 2013/3/10 17:28
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Just can't stay away
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Also, several isolated properties between Brunswick and Monmouth, on Pavonia, Eight, Seventh had massive basement flooding after Irene. So it's really property by property too.
Posted on: 2013/3/10 16:51
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Just can't stay away
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Dtjcview, you must live east on 9th and was not venturing far westward after Irene. The intersection of 9th and Brunswick was flooded so bad that a fire hydrant was completely covered. In my observation, it is really block by block, probably depending on bedrock, gardens and sewer systems. The further west you go, you also have to factor the swampy area under the turnpike. After Irene, a fire truck stalled on Division when attemping to go through a massive "puddle".
Posted on: 2013/3/10 16:32
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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I'm confused. Isn't HP East of Monmouth? You imply the 2007 was the more severe storm, and "even" then it didn't touch the area of 9th West of Monmouth, but then you say that the NY Times map is inaccurate cause it shows 9th "up to" HP being flooded. So what part of 9th flooded in 2007, if not West of Monmouth and not as far east as HP?
All I know is that we walked around that entire area and saw numerous people pulling out furniture and personal items and putting them on the street. Of course, it wasn't EVERY house, but I believe it was enough to justify the "general" area that the NY Times map is outlining.
Posted on: 2013/3/10 15:47
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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I live on 9th. Ninth was relatively untouched. Some minor basement flooding, but nothing like 2007. And even in 2007 flooding didn't touch 9th street West of Monmouth. The Times map shows 9th street flooded all the way to Hamilton Park. And it didn't, and hasn't ever to my knowledge. No, I didn't walk around all of JC during the flooding. But I drove around JC daily afterwards, looking for gas for my generator, and helping friends out over in Country Village. I saw little or no evidence of flooding anywhere on 7th, 8th, Pavonia and 9th streets the day after the storm. Yes I saw pockets evidenced by trash on the sidewalks, like near York and Monmouth. But if you compared the sidewalks to say, Country Village, flood damage in NW downtown was relatively minor and isolated.
Posted on: 2013/3/10 2:14
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Home away from home
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I guess I'm wondering, how are you so confident? Did you walk around ALL of JC and discern this?
Posted on: 2013/3/10 1:07
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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The legend was "Flood zone. Approximate area inundated by the storm". Marked in blue was over 2/3rds the NW section of downtown JC. Which simply corresponded to the latest FEMA maps. The problem with the map is that it's simply wrong and misleading with reference to Sandy. We may have been inundated with rain, as was every part of JC, but absolutely nowhere near that size of area was touched by flooding, never mind "inundated". In this case the term "inundation" is wrong and misleading, not "qualitative".
Posted on: 2013/3/10 1:01
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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The NY Times map simply says "approximate area inundated by the storm" - they're not making claims about specific amounts, as far as I can tell. We certainly were "inundated," and we are West of Marin AND North of Columbus, but I guess "inundation" is too qualitative of a term.
Posted on: 2013/3/10 0:14
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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The only thing you should be looking at in that area is a houseboat. That picture of the parking lot back a few posts in this thread? That shows the elevated lot behind city hall at Marin and Montgomery, one block uphill from York. Another poster reported that the highwater mark is still visible on the front window of the still-closed 'Tommy 2 Scoops', just East on York.
Posted on: 2013/3/9 23:14
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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In terms of total area impacted, the NY Times/FEMA map is a gross over-estimation. In the past 15 years, the areas flooded have more closely matched the geology.com level, somewhere between the 3-4m mark, with Sandy being closer to 3m levels and the 2007 flood closer to the 4m level. http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/new-york.shtml http://fema.maps.arcgis.com/home/webm ... bfb434d76af8c15c26541a545
Posted on: 2013/3/9 22:24
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Newbie
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Would anyone say that the area near Marin Blvd and York St. were hit hard by Sandy? I'm looking for apartments in that area and just want to be aware. From the maps, what I understood is that area got hit pretty hard.
Posted on: 2013/3/9 21:09
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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Both
Posted on: 2013/3/9 2:08
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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Was 5th and Monmouth from the surge or storm water backup ?
Posted on: 2013/3/9 1:56
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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5th near Monmouth had 6 inches over the sidewalk for Sandy and a foot for Irene... so yeah, it's definitely NOT over-estimating flooding...if anything, it's underestimating it.
Posted on: 2013/3/9 0:21
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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What about Newport?
Posted on: 2013/3/8 21:05
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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So Brewster. Was your neighborhood under water? The map says yes. What say you?
Posted on: 2013/3/8 20:31
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Home away from home
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Boolian operands people! He said AND not OR. None of the areas you are citing are both north of Columbus and west of Marin
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Posted on: 2013/3/8 20:24
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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YQuote:
All of York street up to Barrow was under, about 4 feet in the streets. Same applies for Bright. So not sure what you're talking about.
Posted on: 2013/3/8 19:29
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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You might want to revise that. West of Marin got hammered by the surge. Almost all of Grand and York up to VV Park was under. Mercer, Montgomery and York were all completely under beyond Grove St. The PAD area was completely under. By "under" I mean upwards of 6 feet. Elevation does not increase the further you get from the water. There are several spots, like Washington & Grand, that are at a much higher elevation than Montgomery and Marin. For example, here's your City Hall parking lot at about 11:30. This was not the highest the water would rise that night. Also keep in mind, that parking lot is elevated above the surrounding streets by 1 - 2 feet.  This flood water extended well beyond Marin and CC Blvd.
Posted on: 2013/3/8 19:20
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Re: Flooding in Jersey City
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Home away from home
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Yep not accurate. With Sandy, DTJC north of Columbus and west of Marin was barely touched, aside from some isolated basement flooding. The blue shading makes it look like most areas were hit by flooding. In fact, flooding has never been that widespread as shown in the map in the past 15 years, including Sandy, Irene and the severe flooding in 2007.
Posted on: 2013/3/8 14:11
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