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Re: Embankment- Update Thread
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matty wrote:
corybraiterman and stillinjc:

no one here thinks jersey city is capable of creating a $75 mm park whose maintenance runs in the multiple millions of dollars a year. what most of us here want is a value-add project with the potential to put our city on the map. right now, our "map" consists of lsp, lefrak, crooked politicians, a strong rental market, and, soon, a jersey shore spinoff.


Matty - thanks so much for this post! I think for all of us who have hopes for the JC Embankment, you sum it up - and point out how we, as concerned citizens need to engage the JC government more to do the right thing for the city in the long run! Are you involved with the Embankment Preservation project? I'm thinking of it, to bring another voice. Now, having said that...

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matty wrote:
corybraiterman and stillinjc:

...no one is denying the obstacles; to deny the potential, as you both seem intent on doing, however, is offensively stupid. you guys must really love condos.

i really admire the ambition of you both, lusting after firefighters, libraries and a quiet, bedroom-oriented jersey city where tax dollars aren't wasted...


I am all for the Embankment, but we can't discount corybraiterman and stillinjc's concerns. One thing that also bears repeating is that we have to be careful about comparing it to the Highline - think about how the Highline gets its funding http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/nyr ... ft-to-high-line-park.html I don't think even if everyone who support the Embankment donated generously, we would hold a candle to this. We have to frame the argument in realistic, local terms.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 13:41
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I hope you have heard of emminent domain

Posted on: 2012/2/9 13:33
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matty wrote:
you guys must really love condos.


I really don't know how many times I've written that I don't want a condo built there in this thread alone. I think this has to be pushing a dozen, perhaps twenty.


no park: check. no condos: check.
okay, so humor us: what DO you want there?

Posted on: 2012/2/9 13:16
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Cory's not anonymous... He outed himself as the guy that used to work at a record store at the mall on 440:
Resized Image (Far left)

I imagine him to be like Jack Black in high fidelity:
Resized Image

Posted on: 2012/2/9 12:54
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and by anonymous, you mean someone using their real name?

riiiiiiight. I wonder how many times I'll have to point THIS one out too, I think I'm up to half a dozen already.


As far as the big box being temporary, a) I'll believe it when I see it, seeing as how they're on long leases and show no signs of business being poor enough to make them move. and b) so we're going to have a public park end on private housing or is the developer selling that portion to the city as well?

Posted on: 2012/2/9 12:46
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stillinjc wrote:


I take Cory seriously. Because he's absolutely right.



Anonymous cowards on jclist don't count.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 12:05
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corybraiterman wrote:
http://www.embankment.org/whitesite/embank9again.jpg is clearly not taken from the embankment

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2224/2065034603_15bf95720e.jpg great shot of the Bed Bath & Beyond. That's fantastic. Real tourist attraction.

Many of those shots look like they could be taken from half the backyards in the area - position camera low near a bush. Sorry, some nice pictures of bushes aren't worth 7 million+. Find them for less. Or let the Embankment rot as is and keep them. I'd rather see that ugly wall stay up there instead of flushing all that money away to get new ones.

Even assuming you have the Embankment down past Marin, then what? It ends on the east side of the block instead of the west in the shopping lot of Pep Boys. Hooray?


The "big box" retail in that area is temporary. The City's Master Plan has that area designated for large scale waterfront development. Residential, commercial, etc. It is unquestionably a long term plan, but it is the plan.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 12:05
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matty wrote:
you guys must really love condos.


I really don't know how many times I've written that I don't want a condo built there in this thread alone. I think this has to be pushing a dozen, perhaps twenty.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 6:23
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jc council voted 9-0 to approve the resolution authorizing the settlement to acquire the Embankment.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 1:28
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matty wrote:
corybraiterman and stillinjc:

no one here thinks jersey city is capable of creating a $75 mm park whose maintenance runs in the multiple millions of dollars a year. what most of us here want is a value-add project with the potential to put our city on the map. right now, our "map" consists of lsp, lefrak, crooked politicians, a strong rental market, and, soon, a jersey shore spinoff.

the park will take 5-7 years to plan and then another 5-7 years to build. but with some (uncharacteristic) creativity, it's possible to accomplish something beneficial to the city and its residents. no one is denying the obstacles; to deny the potential, as you both seem intent on doing, however, is offensively stupid. you guys must really love condos.

and as for the $7 mm: jersey city's budget is nearly a 1/2 billion dollars. do you think that a one-time expense of $7 million for land that's clearly worth many more times that, whether it be parkland or condos, is a bad investment for the city? the city paid nearly that much (federal, not city money) to put a chain-link fence underneath the turnpike.

i really admire the ambition of you both, lusting after firefighters, libraries and a quiet, bedroom-oriented jersey city where tax dollars aren't wasted. perhaps by the time city hall figures out how to accomplish all that aww-shucks super bowl-commercial just-folks bullshit, maybe the embankment will be a park in some fashion.


marry me.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 1:17
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STCblues thanks for posting these lovely pictures. We'd love to post on our website embankment.org. If you'd allow us to do so, please email me at info@embankment.org. Anyone else who has photos of the embankment that you'd like to share, please email me. Thanks so much! Jenny

Posted on: 2012/2/9 1:17
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Thanks for posting!

Posted on: 2012/2/9 1:15
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corybraiterman and stillinjc:

no one here thinks jersey city is capable of creating a $75 mm park whose maintenance runs in the multiple millions of dollars a year. what most of us here want is a value-add project with the potential to put our city on the map. right now, our "map" consists of lsp, lefrak, crooked politicians, a strong rental market, and, soon, a jersey shore spinoff.

the park will take 5-7 years to plan and then another 5-7 years to build. but with some (uncharacteristic) creativity, it's possible to accomplish something beneficial to the city and its residents. no one is denying the obstacles; to deny the potential, as you both seem intent on doing, however, is offensively stupid. you guys must really love condos.

and as for the $7 mm: jersey city's budget is nearly a 1/2 billion dollars. do you think that a one-time expense of $7 million for land that's clearly worth many more times that, whether it be parkland or condos, is a bad investment for the city? the city paid nearly that much (federal, not city money) to put a chain-link fence underneath the turnpike.

i really admire the ambition of you both, lusting after firefighters, libraries and a quiet, bedroom-oriented jersey city where tax dollars aren't wasted. perhaps by the time city hall figures out how to accomplish all that aww-shucks super bowl-commercial just-folks bullshit, maybe the embankment will be a park in some fashion.

Posted on: 2012/2/9 0:34
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I can't wait to have a chai latte on the Embankment. Maybe with Snooki and the Situation.


And I'll take the check.

Awesome.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 22:56
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I can't wait to have a chai latte on the Embankment. Maybe with Snooki and the Situation.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 21:00
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embankment 24.jpg

embankment 20.jpg

embankment 2.jpg

embankment 27.jpg

Posted on: 2012/2/8 20:18
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I can't wait to sip a chai latte on the embankment.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 19:57
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Vigilante wrote:
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stillinjc wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
I want my park.


And you want ME to pay for it.

So say it.

Just say it.


You will pay for it just as you paid the pension of a 52 year old retired JCPD officer who lives in New Smyrna Beach, Florida.


Wow.

What does one has to do with another? You lost me there, Vig.

Are you implying that both payments are wrong? Or both are good? Or "that's the way it is"? Or that I am getting my pocket picked regardless?

And what's up with New Smyrna Beach?


Posted on: 2012/2/8 19:01
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http://www.embankment.org/whitesite/embank9again.jpg is clearly not taken from the embankment

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2224/2065034603_15bf95720e.jpg great shot of the Bed Bath & Beyond. That's fantastic. Real tourist attraction.

Many of those shots look like they could be taken from half the backyards in the area - position camera low near a bush. Sorry, some nice pictures of bushes aren't worth 7 million+. Find them for less. Or let the Embankment rot as is and keep them. I'd rather see that ugly wall stay up there instead of flushing all that money away to get new ones.

Even assuming you have the Embankment down past Marin, then what? It ends on the east side of the block instead of the west in the shopping lot of Pep Boys. Hooray?

Posted on: 2012/2/8 19:00
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JPhurst wrote:
I have never taken credit personally for the Embankment being saved. The Conservancy was a supporter, and I did serve as President for 3 1/2 years, but support was established by my predecessors and continued by my successors.

The EPC has been the main organization, of course. And there are several people who have put in a lot more time, money and effort and my defense of them on this board has not been to preserve any legacy of myself. Rather, it has been a defense of those ill-informed, cynical, and hateful attacks on good people who have done work for no personal benefit.

Calling someone a "fraud" could be conceived as many as defamatory. But since no one takes you seriously I don't really care.


I take Cory seriously. Because he's absolutely right.

So you're wrong right there, Mr Parkhurst.

I also think that in your support of the Embankment you, along with EPC and City Hall are wasting my taxpayer dollars.

And I think you're doing it knowing full well that building a park there is cockamamie idea, one that JC cannot possibly afford.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 18:48
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Some more views from up on the embankment.

embankment 32.jpg

embankment 33.jpg

embankment 22.jpg

embankment 16.jpg

embankment 6.jpg


embankment 1.jpg

Posted on: 2012/2/8 15:51
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The embankment would likely have a pedestrian bridge over Marin and would connect to the waterway:


Resized Image

Here's some other photos from the embankment coalition site:

Resized Image

Resized Image

Resized Image

Resized Image

Resized Image

Resized Image

Resized Image

Posted on: 2012/2/8 15:33
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Also, if there are currently issues with homeless people and troublemaking teenagers after hours in our existing parks such as VVP and HP, wouldn't you think that an elevated, out of sight park would have even more of those types of problems?

Posted on: 2012/2/8 14:25
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I'm generally all for increasing green space/park space, and having more public recreation spaces around. But I'm not sure I can really wrap my head around the usefulness of the embankment as a park. The embankment structure is about 1/2 mile long, and it abruptly ends at Marin Blvd. How exactly would it be used?

I agree that it would be kind of "cool" to go for a walk above street level, but it's not wide enough to allow any sort of real recreation, and it ends at Marin Blvd without connection to any other public space or walking/bike path. So, what would the typical user of park use it for? A brief walk?

Now if the raised embankment connected to the Hudson River waterfront walkway, I would say YES, this is an excellent idea. But there is a stupid ugly mall in the way. It the mall wasn't there, this could turn out to be a cool project that would continue to put JC on the map. But as it stands, I don't know if it would work or make sense.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 14:21
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what already-existing tourist haven did the Highline have? did you ever walk through that area of Manhattan prior to 2005?


Have you? I used to work there. There were a bunch of small art galleries, cheaper eateries, the large complex at Chelsea Piers and oh yea, its two blocks from an accessible highway, public transportation and IN DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN THAT GETS FORTY MILLION TOURISTS PER YEAR.


yes, I have been there in the pre-highline days, for work only. it was never a preferred destination. and how many of those forty-million tourists went to west Chelsea to take in those small galleries and cheaper eateries?

I agree with what you (and, much more eloquently, ExUWSguy) say about JC's ability to support something like the highline, which is why it is of course necessary to explore all options. but just because something won't be the absolute best X, doesn't mean we knock it down and settle for Y.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 14:17
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Posted on: 2012/2/8 14:05
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hero69 wrote:
The Wall Street Journal has an interesting article on Jersey City's High Line hopes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001 ... html?KEYWORDS=jersey+city

I remember when people said the High Line was a WASTE!


How much did the High Line cost?


$75 million per 1/2 mile of park; 1 1/2 miles completed so far. Operating costs are around $3 million per year. Everyone should read the WSJ article as well as the link below, which goes into detail about how High Line Park was funded, and what it contributes to NYC in terms of economic development that otherwise may not have happended.

Now I have to say I am an ardent preservationist, and agree 100% that this is an important project for Jersey City - protecting and enhancing historic resources, open space, ennvironmentally sustainable development all contribute to making someplace one of those places everyone aspires to live, like... Chelsea! But I have to concur with the nay-sayers this needs to be thought through differently for Jersey City. NYC has SO many people with SO MUCH money - it can afford to realize projects like the High Line, which really does benefit everyone. JC will need a different model, since there is no coherent plan for development. Without that, it may not be feasible to take the chance on the High Line.

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article ... plutocrats-who-pays-parks

Posted on: 2012/2/8 13:54
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I have never taken credit personally for the Embankment being saved. The Conservancy was a supporter, and I did serve as President for 3 1/2 years, but support was established by my predecessors and continued by my successors.

The EPC has been the main organization, of course. And there are several people who have put in a lot more time, money and effort and my defense of them on this board has not been to preserve any legacy of myself. Rather, it has been a defense of those ill-informed, cynical, and hateful attacks on good people who have done work for no personal benefit.

Calling someone a "fraud" could be conceived as many as defamatory. But since no one takes you seriously I don't really care.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 12:29
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what already-existing tourist haven did the Highline have? did you ever walk through that area of Manhattan prior to 2005?


Have you? I used to work there. There were a bunch of small art galleries, cheaper eateries, the large complex at Chelsea Piers and oh yea, its two blocks from an accessible highway, public transportation and IN DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN THAT GETS FORTY MILLION TOURISTS PER YEAR.

I'm not even going to dignify the nonsense from Hurst with a response anymore. You've ignored the parts where I say "most" and transliterate that to "all". You've ignored my points about the library and policemen to say "oh JC doesn't run the post office" (which is true, but so nice of you to ignore the rest of what I've said). Your apparent desire to make some mark in some historical context is mockingly sad and has simply become a nuisance at this point. ianmac already noted your evangelical zeal, which reinforces that pretty much everything you've said is invalid. Go on believing that you're some glorious crusader. The rest of us who know better look down upon you as a fraud.

Should the embankment ever get built, not a day will go by that I and many others look upon that and not see millions of dollars flushed down the toilet so that some yuppies can enjoy their new dog-walking trail. Every time an article comes up about the library reducing their hours even more, about classroom overcrowding, about failures in sewer systems, about policemen and firemen being laid off and forced into early retirement, I will remind you and the other embankment supporters that you foisted this waste upon us instead of bringing money and time to actual worthwhile causes. Congratulations on being one step closer to throwing 7 million dollars away while our public libraries are cut to the bone. You all must be very proud.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 12:06
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hero69 wrote:
I want my park.


And you want ME to pay for it.

So say it.

Just say it.


You will pay for it just as you paid the pension of a 52 year old retired JCPD officer who lives in New Smyrna Beach, Florida.

Posted on: 2012/2/8 9:07
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