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Re: Christie Kills Tunnel Project
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He should shut the PATH down too. Then close down all the fire departments, close down all the highways, schools, agriculture and put a big dome over New Jersey. Then the outside world can watch us eat each other.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 16:22
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Re: Christie Kills Tunnel Project
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I am an Obama voter and actually agree with Christie's decision here. I think building this tunnel would be a very short sighted, temporary band aid, and a waste of tax payer money. Regardless of whether it's NJ money, Fed money, or PA Money, it really is just tax payer money period. If the building of the tunnel would pay for itself over time, then sure, but what dramatic changes will this tunnel bring about? What business is NJ missing out on as a result of this?

As for commuters heading to NY, the current system isn't perfect, thats for sure. It does need to be improved. But this gigantic of a project is overkill. The fact is the NYC economy is changing and will continue to do so for a long time. Finance jobs, which are the foundation of the tri-state area, are leaving NYC and will not be coming back any time soon.

As for creating construction jobs, sure, we will need to hire tons of workers to build this thing. But hiring people because they don't have jobs is not doing anything for the long term sustainability of the economy. It is just a band aid.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 16:21
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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Xerxes wrote:

If one cannot get from NJ into Manhattan to work perhaps work can come to NJ?



That is not going to happen. The jobs in Manhattan are desirable, high paying jobs and if the people with those jobs cannot easily get into the city from suburban New Jersey, the growth of those residents is going to be in places with that capacity to grow, such as places further north of the city with existing rail infrastructure.

Businesses are not going to relocate to New Jersey simply because workers can't get from New Jersey to Manhattan easily enough; they will stay in Manhattan and the employees will relocate.

Moreover, as the region continues to grow, we will still end up needing to invest in infrastructure, except we will have to do it without $3 billion in federal funding.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 16:17
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Re: Christie Kills Tunnel Project
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The End of the Tunnel
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: October 7, 2010

The Erie Canal. Hoover Dam. The Interstate Highway System. Visionary public projects are part of the American tradition, and have been a major driver of our economic development.

And right now, by any rational calculation, would be an especially good time to improve the nation’s infrastructure. We have the need: our roads, our rail lines, our water and sewer systems are antiquated and increasingly inadequate. We have the resources: a million-and-a-half construction workers are sitting idle, and putting them to work would help the economy as a whole recover from its slump. And the price is right: with interest rates on federal debt at near-record lows, there has never been a better time to borrow for long-term investment.

But American politics these days is anything but rational. Republicans bitterly opposed even the modest infrastructure spending contained in the Obama stimulus plan. And, on Thursday, Chris Christie, the governor of New Jersey, canceled America’s most important current public works project, the long-planned and much-needed second rail tunnel under the Hudson River.

It was a destructive and incredibly foolish decision on multiple levels. But it shouldn’t have been all that surprising. We are no longer the nation that used to amaze the world with its visionary projects. We have become, instead, a nation whose politicians seem to compete over who can show the least vision, the least concern about the future and the greatest willingness to pander to short-term, narrow-minded selfishness.

So, about that tunnel: with almost 1,200 people per square mile, New Jersey is the most densely populated state in America, more densely populated than any major European nation. Add in the fact that many residents work in New York, and you have a state that can’t function without adequate public transportation. There just isn’t enough space for everyone to drive to work.

But right now there’s just one century-old rail tunnel linking New Jersey and New York — and it’s running close to capacity. The need for another tunnel couldn’t be more obvious.

So last year the project began. Of the $8.7 billion in planned funding, less than a third was to come from the State of New Jersey; the rest would come, in roughly equal amounts, from the independent Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and from the federal government. Even if costs were to rise substantially, as they often do on big projects, it was a very good deal for the state.

But Mr. Christie killed it anyway.

News reports suggest that his immediate goal was to shift funds to local road projects and existing rail repairs. There were, however, much better ways to raise those funds, such as an increase in the state’s relatively low gasoline taxes — and bear in mind that whatever motorists gain from low gas taxes will be at least partly undone by pain from the canceled project in the form of growing congestion and traffic delays. But, no, in modern America, no tax increase can ever be justified, for any reason.

So this was a terrible, shortsighted move from New Jersey’s point of view. But that’s not the whole cost. Canceling the tunnel was also a blow to national hopes of recovery, part of a pattern of penny-pinching that has played a large role in our continuing economic stagnation.

When people ask why the Obama stimulus didn’t accomplish more, one good response is to ask, what stimulus? Leaving aside the cost of financial rescues and safety-net programs like unemployment insurance, federal spending has risen only modestly — and this rise has been largely offset by cutbacks at the state and local level. Many of these cuts were forced by Congress, which has refused to approve adequate aid to the states. But as Mr. Christie is demonstrating, local politicians are also doing their part.

And the ideology that has led Mr. Christie to undermine his state’s future is, of course, the same ideology that has led almost all Republicans and some Democrats to stand in the way of any meaningful action to revive the nation’s economy. Worse yet, next month’s election seems likely to reward Republicans for their obstructionism.

So here’s how you should think about the decision to kill the tunnel: It’s a terrible thing in itself, but, beyond that, it’s a perfect symbol of how America has lost its way. By refusing to pay for essential investment, politicians are both perpetuating unemployment and sacrificing long-run growth. And why not? After all, this seems to be a winning electoral strategy. All vision of a better future seems to have been lost, replaced with a refusal to look beyond the narrowest, most shortsighted notion of self-interest.

I wish I could say something optimistic at this point. But at least for now, I don’t see any light at the end of this tunnel.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 16:02
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Re: Christie Kills Tunnel Project
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Bravo to the Governor. 14 Billion down a rat hole would have been the result. The corrupt Hudson County Politicians won't have a new revenue stream to steal from.

A few million spent staffing a FBI field office in Jersey City tasked with Public Corruption, would be a far more productive use of scarce tax dollars.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 15:57
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Re: Christie Kills Tunnel Project
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Yes, but when the trains are overburdened, people will be saying " Gee, We should have built the tunnel when we had the chance"

Posted on: 2010/10/8 14:27
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Re: Christie Kills Tunnel Project
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Absolutely moronic.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 13:48
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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ceo3west wrote:
Can we finally pave the minefields that are C. Columbus and Newark Ave now? I've never seen anything like it. I've driven on unpaved roads in foreign countries that are better than these.



i read that columbus will be done late november/early december (they didn't mention which year though). ill miss waking up to jackhammering every morning.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 13:43
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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Worst. Governor. Ever.



Yes, indeed.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 13:23
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Re: Christie Kills Tunnel Project
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“Killing the ARC tunnel will go down as one of the biggest public policy blunders in New Jersey’s history,” Mr. Lautenberg said. “Without increased transportation options into Manhattan, New Jersey’s economy will eventually be crippled.”

No, uncontrolled spending by lifelong politicians IS crippling the economy.

Yes, we need jobs, but not at the cost of higher taxes - let the government find ways to stimulate the private sector, increase overall wealth instead of just re-distributing it. Three cheers for Christie to stand up and say "enough is enough". Ten, fifteen years from now when the tunnel would have been built and the resulting BILLIONS in cost over runs, we won't be saying "Gee, didn't anyone see this coming?"

Posted on: 2010/10/8 12:57
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Christie Kills Tunnel Project
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I guess we don't need 6,000 construction jobs in the NJ area:


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/nyr ... html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

Posted on: 2010/10/8 12:41
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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I mourn a much needed project, but at the same time I have to hand it to him for highlighting the "overun" game in government contracts. Get the contract with a low bid and you've got the governments by the balls throwing good money after bad, whether you're building a bridge or a fighter jet. Where's the pol with the backbone to structure contracts that are set in stone, with penalties for walking away.

I'm a freelancer, if I unilaterally said a job was going to go 50% more than I bid, and I'd walk away otherwise, I'd end up with a career threatening lawsuit. I'm committed to finishing the job at the price I set, and since the job is often poorly defined at the time I bid, I need to make myself safe at bid time. If the civil engineering contractors do that and it's too high to do the project, so be it. But the fact that it's the rare project that DOESN'T cost way more than bid give Christie some justification. At the least the PA & feds should be liable for cost overuns too.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 3:19
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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When you bitch about your taxes been too high this is what happens. You can't have both ways. We need a project like this but the reality is we DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT! When I want to buy something I save the money for it not just put it on a credit card so that you pay 3 times what it would of cost if you hadn't finance it. When the state is in a better financial state it should save up money and then when it has enough money it should build it.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 3:07
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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Can we finally pave the minefields that are C. Columbus and Newark Ave now? I've never seen anything like it. I've driven on unpaved roads in foreign countries that are better than these.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 3:04
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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So he pisses away the biggest public transportation improvement, not to mention job stimulus, in the state's history.

And it came out today as well that his pissing away of $400 million education funding was because he was afraid of right wing talk radio hosts.

Worst. Governor. Ever.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 2:47
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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Could.......might........should.......if..........maybe........needed

Words with no substance !

Seeing is believeing when it comes to the PATH

Posted on: 2010/10/8 2:01
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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mfadam wrote:
Columbus Drive has outdone itself of late. Can only imagine what it will be like after this winter if they don't fix it beforehand...


And Newark Ave. from 5 corners all the way down to Coles is a friggin' joke.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 1:48
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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Columbus Drive has outdone itself of late. Can only imagine what it will be like after this winter if they don't fix it beforehand...

Posted on: 2010/10/8 1:41
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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Cripes. Send a fraction of the $$$ here and pave some damn roads!

Posted on: 2010/10/8 1:01
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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No don't get me wrong, Christie is a piece of sh#t but he may havbe stumbled on the right call here.

If one cannot get from NJ into Manhattan to work perhaps work can come to NJ?

My point is that often wasting money on junk is wasting money on junk. My OTHER point is that the United States is bankrupt.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 0:38
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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No question NJ is financially jeopardized these days, but this decision is pretty shortsighted. It's a nightmare getting in and out of Manhattan from NJ and sooner of later this situation needs to be improved. Do you really think Christie is going to funnel money to projects that provide a better return on investment? As always, Christie is good on spending cuts but refuses to raise revenue by taxing upper income earners...

Posted on: 2010/10/8 0:33
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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Maybe PATH could dig into its immense coffers and pay for a new tunnel tube. Yeah right!
(THat's my hysterically funny joke for the day!)

The United States cannot afford to build tunnels...it prefers to waste it's capital fighting endless wars instead to support its failing corporat power.

I am a progressive but I support Christie's call here. SOMEBODY must watch the checking account balance, whether it comes to tunnels under the Hudson or saving piles of rocks in Jersey City.

Throwing money at rich developers to do substandard work has gone on for far too long.

The United States cannot any longer afford to support its failing infrastructure. Wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia are just too pricey and if not fought, Exxon-Mobil and ROyal Dutch Shell, Halliburton and BLackwayer will have a few bad quarters.

Posted on: 2010/10/8 0:03
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Re: Christie Cancelling Trans Hudson ARC tunnel
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Looks like Republicans could care less about CREATING JOBS!!!

Posted on: 2010/10/7 22:12
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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Now that this silly construction has been put to an end, hopefully the McDonalds on 1/9 will reopen which was shut..

Posted on: 2010/10/7 21:53
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Re: Christie Cancelling Trans Hudson ARC tunnel
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MDM wrote:

It should be canceled. This tunnel is a massive white elephant in the making.

The tunnel will run deep to avoid existing subway lines and an aqueduct. It will terminate in NYC at a depth of about 180 ft (18 stories).

At this depth, it will not connect to either Penn Station or Grand Central. A whole new station underground will need to be built. This station WILL NOT connect to any existing subway lines. The station will be NJ transit only.

You think the Exchange Place PATH station has a long escalator? The escalators to move the people out of the station will nearly be 1/3 rd of a mile long. That means nearly a 20 minute escalator ride to get out of the station.


Eh, that's not even the deepest rail station in New York City. Also, for the commuter trains that end in Hoboken, ending 18 stories below Manhattan is a much better solution.

Posted on: 2010/10/7 20:52
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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DEAD

Governor of New Jersey Blocks Hudson Tunnel Project

By PATRICK McGEEHAN

Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey said on Thursday that he has decided to terminate the construction of a commuter train tunnel between northern New Jersey and Manhattan because of escalating estimates of the project’s cost.

Until last month, the project had been estimated to cost $8.7 billion. But after his staff reviewed the project, Governor Christie said they concluded it would cost more than $11 billion, and possibly as much as $14 billion.

The federal government and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey had pledged $3 billion each toward the tunnel, but Mr. Christie said New Jersey could not afford to pay the balance.

In early September, Mr. Christie surprised other elected officials and an array of transportation advocates who had supported the tunnel by ordering a temporary halt to spending on the project.

New Jersey Transit, the state-run operator of commuter trains and buses, had already hired contractors to begin digging the tunnel, and the Port Authority had begun condemning property in Midtown Manhattan that stood in the way of the project.

All told, about $600 million had been spent. Senator Frank R. Lautenberg, a Democrat from New Jersey who supported the project, said that about half of that money came from the federal government and would have to be repaid by New Jersey.

The move would scuttle a project that has been in the planning for two decades and was supposed to double the capacity on trains into New York City and alleviate congestion on the region’s roads.

Transportation advocates and officials in Washington said that the federal money would probably be spent on transit projects in other states. They said they expected Mr. Christie to suggest spending the Port Authority’s money on other projects in New Jersey.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/nyregion/08tunnel.html?hp

Posted on: 2010/10/7 20:22
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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exercise is good!

Posted on: 2010/10/7 19:07
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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[quote]
spider wrote:
where did you get that from? the lowest elevation is 100 ft and everything I read says it would connect to penn station which by default connects it to the subway. and you don't think there would be elevators?[/quote


That tunnel would bring trains from the suburbs of North Jersey and would end in a bilevel station to be built about 180 feet below 34th Street between Sixth and Eighth Avenues.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/08/nyregion/08tunnel.html



I am sure there will be elevators as well. Elevators however, cannot move large numbers of people that would pack the station.

Posted on: 2010/10/7 17:46
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Re: NJ Transit commuters could get another train option
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where did you get that from? the lowest elevation is 100 ft and everything I read says it would connect to penn station which by default connects it to the subway. and you don't think there would be elevators?

Posted on: 2010/10/7 17:29
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Re: Christie Cancelling Trans Hudson ARC tunnel
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I wouldn't be surprised if he canceled it - he seems to be a short-term thinker.



It should be canceled. This tunnel is a massive white elephant in the making.

The tunnel will run deep to avoid existing subway lines and an aqueduct. It will terminate in NYC at a depth of about 180 ft (18 stories).

At this depth, it will not connect to either Penn Station or Grand Central. A whole new station underground will need to be built. This station WILL NOT connect to any existing subway lines. The station will be NJ transit only.

You think the Exchange Place PATH station has a long escalator? The escalators to move the people out of the station will nearly be 1/3 rd of a mile long. That means nearly a 20 minute escalator ride to get out of the station.

Posted on: 2010/10/7 16:52
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