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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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I think you're missing the point. The main thing is that this area where Trader Joe's would be in (current c-town) simply does not have the population to support it. Maybe on the waterfront where there are towers, but not on 4th & Jersey. I think having parking would be a huge selling point for the store as they would rely on commuters, residents of Hoboken, JC Heights, Bayonne, etc to make a trip there to shop in a "specialty store." Sure you and I would walk there, but think about what's outside of a 8 block radius, let alone with winter coming and bad weather when people just don't even want to walk to a store.


No I understand what you are talking about, but TJ's has a fan base that WILL walk the distance. Did you see the insanity when it opened on 14th? People took path from JC to go there. I think you are underestimating TJ's fan base in JC. And don't call it a chain, it is a very successful PRIVATELY owned company it doesn't compare to ANY grocery chains. IF the store traffic is so dependent on whether there are parking spots or not, I am sure TJ's management can make a decision to buy that funeral home across the street and level it into a lot (although I want it to become a vampire night club, but I digest)

Posted on: 2010/9/2 15:30
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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I'm not so much concerned about C-Town closing. Walked in and right out once because of the stench. But if A&P closes and I'm relegated to Shop Rite as the only viable downtown option, I'm heading out of town. Though their prices are better than A&P, I find the Shop Rite employees rude and the meat and produce horrible. BTW, the market section of Target is great. It's a limited selection but it's immaculate, prices are good and the quality is great.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 15:18
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Tash wrote:
Does every grocery store in an urban environment have to have a parking lot? Hellooo, India street? no parking there, people still come to stock up on food. PUH-lease. Jersey City is a city, remember? half of the people here have granny carts. I even had one, and I had a car too and I used them both (both are RIP now.) It has to do with this area's grocery shopping habits, which are diverse enough to support shoppers who do not require a parking spot. Remember, not everyone in Jersey City drives to go food shopping - this is not suburbia. To be honest, most people in Jersey City that do, I'd rather have them shop elsewhere, *shudders thinking about PathMark on grand*


I think you're missing the point. The main thing is that this area where Trader Joe's would be in (current c-town) simply does not have the population to support it. Maybe on the waterfront where there are towers, but not on 4th & Jersey. I think having parking would be a huge selling point for the store as they would rely on commuters, residents of Hoboken, JC Heights, Bayonne, etc to make a trip there to shop in a "specialty store." Sure you and I would walk there, but think about what's outside of a 8 block radius, let alone with winter coming and bad weather when people just don't even want to walk to a store.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 15:10
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Does every grocery store in an urban environment have to have a parking lot? Hellooo, India street? no parking there, people still come to stock up on food. PUH-lease. Jersey City is a city, remember? half of the people here have granny carts. I even had one, and I had a car too and I used them both (both are RIP now.) It has to do with this area's grocery shopping habits, which are diverse enough to support shoppers who do not require a parking spot. Remember, not everyone in Jersey City drives to go food shopping - this is not suburbia. To be honest, most people in Jersey City that do, I'd rather have them shop elsewhere, *shudders thinking about PathMark on grand*

Posted on: 2010/9/2 15:01
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Unless TJ's is willing to erect a parking garage where CT currently is, there is no chance that a TJ would sign a lease, or purchase the property. There is simply not enough parking - street, garage or otherwise - to draw patrons from outside the immediate downtown JC area. If parking isn't available, it makes no business sense for a national chain like that to plunk down significant dollars and resources when it is doomed to failure based on their own factors for success.

As for the folks who indicated that SR is a better supermarket than A & P, that is subjective. I can see how some might argue that the selection is better. But time is money! If I have to invest an hour to buy my week's groceries, vs half that time in the A & P, and my senses are not assaulted in the process, I am happily willing to shell out $1.49 for my two-liter soda vs .89 at SR. I have yet to even go by the SR parking lot when there isn't a packed lot. I deplore every shopping experience, there, and am happy that the A & P exists.

I am anxiously awaiting all of the anticipated yuppie retorts, now.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 14:43
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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C-town gotta go, I am so happy to see this shithole go on sale. I have been going there for almost 4 years because it is 1 block walk for me. However, I completely stopped buying any fresh meat, and rarely frozen good. They get my business for cat food and toilet paper, you know, the essentials your cat and you can't live without (my indoor cat doesn't use litter, thank god.) Sometimes when I am really lazy or don't want to deal with shop rite queuing fiasco, I buy milk and eggs there, but I better use both within a week because they are "guaranteed" to go bad by C-town.

I am surprised how many people here compare Trader Joe's to Whole Foods. Whole Foods has made a class for itself as a high-quality, organic market, meaning they don't care whether you can afford it or not. Trader Joe's works around quality and affordability, not to mention that they are a privately held company and does not act like a corporate chain.

Personally, I would prefer Trader Joe's because their food is affordable and good quality. It also has an interesting selection. Sure it's not as good as Whole Foods in the selection's scope, but I think deals and variety at Trader Joe's is unmatched.

Also, Whole Foods would not be interested in a small space as such, but Trader Joe's might. There's a Trader Joe's in Florham Park, NJ and it's no bigger than this C-town. I think Trader Joe's can really beautify the neighborhood. Another corporate presence will just be boring and yuppie, lets not turn it into Hoboken quite yet.

Hmm I am thinking of writing a letter to Trader Joe's, it might not know about this opportunity.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 14:18
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Shoprite maybe good for center store/grocery items but their other depts are horrible with regards to quality. The A&P in Jersey City and Hoboken are both trending well ahead of their company averages with 2-4% sales decreases. The store in JC would be one of the last of 500 to ever get closed. The JC Shoprite is trending almost 7% down in sales and that is a fact.


Jackie,
Do you have the sales volume numbers comparing the Eighteenth Street A&P with the Marin Boulevard Shop-Rite?

It would surprise me if Shop-Rite did not do double or triple the sales volume of the A&P.

As for service, I have found that the A&P regualarly overcharges, even on the third or fourth days of the week and then makes you FIGHT to get the item free in spite of a huge sign just behing the dimwits in the office. Shop-Rite gets prices RIGHT.

I find the deli, though crowded, better at SHop-Rite, and I find the fish slightly fresher at SR because they sell more of it. I find it infuriating how often the A$P is out of sale items.

The A&P spent a great deal gussying their store (and consequently their prices) and got a really good bakery out of the deal. They got more upscale clientele as a result of prettifying the store but not enough to contribute to corporate profit (IMHO) and now that Morton Williams is even skimming off a lot of that "upscale" who will pay more so they can impulse buy right in the middle of Newport.

Judging from my experience, I see Target hurting business at the A&P far more than at Shop-Rite.

Crowds? Yes there are always at least 4 people in Shop-Rite for every ONE at the A&P but they have 5 times as many working clerks so the waits are comparable because order sizes
are larger at Shp-Rite.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 12:18
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Oh yea.....Good luck to Western Beef

Posted on: 2010/9/2 5:08
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Shoprite maybe good for center store/grocery items but their other depts are horrible with regards to quality. The A&P in Jersey City and Hoboken are both trending well ahead of their company averages with 2-4% sales decreases. The store in JC would be one of the last of 500 to ever get closed. The JC Shoprite is trending almost 7% down in sales and that is a fact. I know folks in both stores and have seen the numbers with my own eyes. Target's grocery expansion has taken a small piece of both stores............................... A&P has been trying to sell off most of Pathmark for over a year without any success. A&P has had three CEOs in less than a year and Wall Street confidence in the company is bad. The company is owned by holding corporations whose own executives have been rumoured to be shorting the stock on a constant basis. There is no long term plan or company vision. The company has a long history of contraction to avoid financial collapse. Personally I believe this company may be a candidate for a leveraged buy out. Time will tell.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 5:04
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Boiled_Mussels wrote:

Uh...it's going to be a Western Beef. So get used to it.


Yeah, I obviously didn't see the earlier post abou that. Chill.

But what the hell is Western Beef? Never heard of that. Does anyone know this place beyond their website?

Posted on: 2010/9/2 4:40
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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FGJCNJ1970 wrote:
If they have the type of produce that is on the Western Beef website than I will be a happy camper.

http://www.westernbeef.com/produce.html


You never know. If you've ever seen Pathmark's west of here, or in central NJ, it's a whole different store than the one here in downtown. At very least, they have great produce. The entire produce selection at the Pathmark here looks like the rotten vegetable bin in most other markets.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 3:31
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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If they have the type of produce that is on the Western Beef website than I will be a happy camper.

http://www.westernbeef.com/produce.html

Posted on: 2010/9/2 3:16
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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I think they need an upscale name change. How about:

"HESPERIAN BOEUF"

(Hesperian is a french word that sorta means western, never heard it before but it's classy, no? Better than "ouest")

Posted on: 2010/9/2 0:58
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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alanwright wrote:
Ok, so we're all thinking gourmet shops because it's a market. The store is even market-ed as a gourmet shop.

So, I suggest:

The JC Food Co-op.
Fairway.
A nice, Italian import market like Sal's Gourmet in Shrewsbury.

However, since the price includes the building and the store, of course they could drop the store and change things entirely.

So, what else can fit on 8,000 square feet other than gourmet markets?

I already suggested an artsy-fartsy movie theatre.

A roller-skating rink.

A microbrewery/ brew-pub and restaurant, etc.

A pocket park!


Uh...it's going to be a Western Beef. So get used to it.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 0:34
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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From the real estate listing:

"574 JERSEY AVE, Jersey City NJ 07302
Commercial Property for Sale for $4,500,000. This 8,000 square foot building was built on a lot size of 8000.

Prime and unique investment opportunity to own & operate a successful food market in the heart of downtown Jersey City. Fantastic upside potentials to create an upscale gourmet market. Ideally located between Grove Street and Hamilton Park. Purchase Price includes the building + revenue generating business."


Ok, so we're all thinking gourmet shops because it's a market. The store is even market-ed as a gourmet shop.

So, I suggest:

The JC Food Co-op.
Fairway.
A nice, Italian import market like Sal's Gourmet in Shrewsbury.

However, since the price includes the building and the store, of course they could drop the store and change things entirely.

So, what else can fit on 8,000 square feet other than gourmet markets?

I already suggested an artsy-fartsy movie theatre.

A roller-skating rink.

A microbrewery/ brew-pub and restaurant, etc.

A pocket park!

Posted on: 2010/9/2 0:31
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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But you see, that's why I hate Shoprite. I used to shop there years ago because it's so much less expensive than its competitors in town. But _because_ it's so cheap, it's incredibly, maddeningly crowded, and I decided my time and sanity are worth more. Now I go to A&P and buy things on sale if I can help it. If only A&P would lower their ridiculously high prices, (I don't buy that "lower price project" thing) maybe they'd do better. I know some of the less upscale A&Ps are actually cheaper.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 0:23
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Shop-Rite is slaughtering the A&P, and Morton Williams (Associated) will be lucky to make it to lease end. Shop-Rite makes C-Town and ANY competitors an economic impossibility...it even makes the Grand Street Pathmark untenable.

Any food retailer who picks up the C-Town lease had better ready to fire its CFO.

One might not like Shop-Rite (I love it) but it has the largest store with the largest stock at the best prices with easy parking, and thus gets all the customers and d it's the only major food retailer with a liquor store.

The C-Town site will best be turned into a parking garage. I DO hope someone doesn't plug in a medium rise condo complex...got entirely enough of them.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 23:57
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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brewster wrote:
If the A&P closes I'll bet against another market, like I said, it's pretty saturated here Downtown.


Why? If you could point to three good markets that sell quality products where people shop because they want to, not because it's the crappy default choice, I'd agree with you. But that is definitely, most certainly, absolutely not the case.

Even if the market market is as saturated as you claim, the new entrant (if done right) would not be the one to suffer. Some combination of Shop Rite, Pathmark and A&P (or their successors) would.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 23:19
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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We don't need no stinkin' museum!

A gourmet grocery store would be much better there!

Posted on: 2010/9/1 21:57
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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alanwright wrote:
We don't need no stinkin' markets!

An artsy-fartsy movie theatre would be much better there!


The JC Museum has a fabulous theater that sits empty, their performance and movie schedule is empty. That's pathetic. We pay for this place, where's their service to the community? Presenting theater and film should be part of their mission.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 21:45
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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We don't need no stinkin' markets!

An artsy-fartsy movie theatre would be much better there!

Posted on: 2010/9/1 21:33
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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All VERY valid and true. And one important thing you bring up (COST) is what would keep them OUT of that A&P Center.. Simon isn't giving anything away, and TJ's is NOTORIOUSLY cheap (as is their parent company Aldi). (subdividing the A&P for a smaller tenant isn't a big deal the landlords do that all the time)


you DID know Aldi owns TJ's didn't you all?


It'll be fascinating if either Pathmark or A&P closes, though I seriously doubt they'd close the Pathmark, the Project business is too steady. If the A&P closes I'll bet against another market, like I said, it's pretty saturated here Downtown.

I'll never understand retailers that can't do the calculation that a better location with more customers who have more money is worth more rent. There's a import tool store called Harbor Freight that prioritizes cheap rent too, located mostly in small remote western cities of less than 75,000, but there's one in Saddle Brook. I emailed them suggesting a store on 440 as potentially a goldmine tapping a concentrated local market of at least 1/2 million people just counting Newark & JC. "Nope, rent's too high". It's like the siting and marketing dept's don't talk to each other.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 21:03
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Posted on: 2010/9/1 20:55
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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matchjames wrote:

You know you bring up an excellent point I'd forgotten about... with A&P/Pathmark in a serious world of hurt right now (bankruptcy is eminent) it wouldn't surprise me to see TJ's THINK about where A&P is now as it would have the parking AND have much easier access to Hoboken AND whoever in Downtown JC wants it.


I could see that, although the A&P is much larger than a typical Trader Joes. I would even more likely see them giving up the small A&P in Hoboken, which has limited parking and seems smaller than a "real" supermarket should be. Also, if a developer offers a sufficiently good deal on a lease as a way to attract apartment tenants (or condo buyers) TJs might be persuaded to consider a JC or Hoboken location. TJs has done that in other cities in the Northeast.

In the end what matters most to TJs -- in all things -- is cost. They are notoriously cost-sensitive, and that extends to their site selection strategy. When they find a location that meets their needs and is adequately inexpensive, they may choose to put a store in the JC or Hoboken area.

Also, given their focus on keeping down distribution costs, the more stores they have in an area, the more likely they are to open others, as for them the cost of operating a store is lower when there are many other locations in the same area (as distribution center costs can be amortized over more locations and the same delivery trucks can serve multiple stores). That's why there are so many TJs in California and Massachusetts - many far closer together than downtown JC/Hoboken is from Edgewater.

And for those who talk about TJ's vs Whole Foods opening in JC -- the logic for site selection between Trader Joe's and Whole Foods is very different. Since Whole Foods doesn't have anywhere near as much a focus on efficient distribution, they are more likely to open a single store in a metro area before TJs. But TJs tends to be willing to have more stores closer together (as long as they get a good deal on rent). And TJs tends to look much more at specific behavioral patterns vs broad demographics when siting stores.



All VERY valid and true. And one important thing you bring up (COST) is what would keep them OUT of that A&P Center.. Simon isn't giving anything away, and TJ's is NOTORIOUSLY cheap (as is their parent company Aldi). (subdividing the A&P for a smaller tenant isn't a big deal the landlords do that all the time)


you DID know Aldi owns TJ's didn't you all?

Posted on: 2010/9/1 20:31
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Stop abusing yourselves you poor hipsters!!! Go and get a good meal!

Like I said before I support stores in JC but when it comes to food all of the JC old-timers say.... “ you gotta go with the Bayonne Stop & Shop”.

A massive parking lot and a light rail station across the highway. For those who live further away the cruise ship port is also across the way.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 20:30
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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matchjames wrote:
... with A&P/Pathmark in a serious world of hurt right now (bankruptcy is eminent) it wouldn't surprise me to see TJ's THINK about where A&P is now as it would have the parking AND have much easier access to Hoboken AND whoever in Downtown JC wants it.


You do have a point. Nationwide A&P will now close 25 of it's own stores -- and on top of that - just here in NJ it will also close 9 more of it's Pathmark stores!

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... en_pathmark_to_close.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/business ... n_to_close_25_stores.html

Posted on: 2010/9/1 20:26
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matchjames wrote:

You know you bring up an excellent point I'd forgotten about... with A&P/Pathmark in a serious world of hurt right now (bankruptcy is eminent) it wouldn't surprise me to see TJ's THINK about where A&P is now as it would have the parking AND have much easier access to Hoboken AND whoever in Downtown JC wants it.


I could see that, although the A&P is much larger than a typical Trader Joes. I would even more likely see them giving up the small A&P in Hoboken, which has limited parking and seems smaller than a "real" supermarket should be. Also, if a developer offers a sufficiently good deal on a lease as a way to attract apartment tenants (or condo buyers) TJs might be persuaded to consider a JC or Hoboken location. TJs has done that in other cities in the Northeast.

In the end what matters most to TJs -- in all things -- is cost. They are notoriously cost-sensitive, and that extends to their site selection strategy. When they find a location that meets their needs and is adequately inexpensive, they may choose to put a store in the JC or Hoboken area.

Also, given their focus on keeping down distribution costs, the more stores they have in an area, the more likely they are to open others, as for them the cost of operating a store is lower when there are many other locations in the same area (as distribution center costs can be amortized over more locations and the same delivery trucks can serve multiple stores). That's why there are so many TJs in California and Massachusetts - many far closer together than downtown JC/Hoboken is from Edgewater.

And for those who talk about TJ's vs Whole Foods opening in JC -- the logic for site selection between Trader Joe's and Whole Foods is very different. Since Whole Foods doesn't have anywhere near as much a focus on efficient distribution, they are more likely to open a single store in a metro area before TJs. But TJs tends to be willing to have more stores closer together (as long as they get a good deal on rent). And TJs tends to look much more at specific behavioral patterns vs broad demographics when siting stores.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 20:23
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matchjames wrote:
You don't think Downtown JC has a limited amount of potential TJ's customers? Run a demo study. It's not going to happen .


I wouldn't go so far as to say never, but it would at least need to be able to accommodate customers driving from Bayonne and Hoboken, etc. Clearly part of the TJ's business plan is to draw people from a wider radius that a typical market. The problem is that most of the existing Downtown shopping centers already have a supermarket (shoprite, Pathmark, A&P) and the managers wouldn't want to lease to TJ's and hurt their current tenant. It would take a new development to create a space with parking for them.

But frankly looking at the list above, and adding the newly expanded Target grocery section and the Morton-Williams, we're already pretty overserved with markets, though sadly they're pretty uniform without the unique qualities of TJ's or Whole Foods.



You know you bring up an excellent point I'd forgotten about... with A&P/Pathmark in a serious world of hurt right now (bankruptcy is eminent) it wouldn't surprise me to see TJ's THINK about where A&P is now as it would have the parking AND have much easier access to Hoboken AND whoever in Downtown JC wants it.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 20:06
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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i don't get the obsession with Trader Joe's. I grew up with one close to me on Long Island and it sucked. It was small and a lot of stuff they sell you can buy at the regular supermarket. I think Whole foods is significantly better than trader joes.

Western Beef is not C-town. it is awesome for getting inexpensive good meet. I remember going there on Long Island and being amazed by the huge meat section. Most Western Beefs are much larger than C-town's lot is.

C-town stinks like nasty rotten beef. I was super excited when i moved here a couple years ago to have a grocery store so close to my apt. that is until i went there for trash bags and had to go outside while my now husband paid for them because it smelled so awful.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 19:51
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Re: C-Town Being Sold
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Quote:

matchjames wrote:
You don't think Downtown JC has a limited amount of potential TJ's customers? Run a demo study. It's not going to happen .


I wouldn't go so far as to say never, but it would at least need to be able to accommodate customers driving from Bayonne and Hoboken, etc. Clearly part of the TJ's business plan is to draw people from a wider radius that a typical market. The problem is that most of the existing Downtown shopping centers already have a supermarket (shoprite, Pathmark, A&P) and the managers wouldn't want to lease to TJ's and hurt their current tenant. It would take a new development to create a space with parking for them.

But frankly looking at the list above, and adding the newly expanded Target grocery section and the Morton-Williams, we're already pretty overserved with markets, though sadly they're pretty uniform without the unique qualities of TJ's or Whole Foods.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 19:41
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