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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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PubliusIII wrote:
I'll swap my house on Pacific and Communipau for anyone who is burdened by living on Hamilton Park (and before someone objects to my coming in to the neighborhood, my kids live there with their x, I lived there for five years, and my father and uncles went to St. Michaels and practiced track in the park in the 1930s). There is nothing better than the experience of a free public basketball court. It is a true democracy. Hamilton Park is the park for the people adjacent to it as well as the people who live in Holland Gardens. The players on the park represent that fact. I have been struck by how egalitarian and pervaded by a sense of fair play the court is infused with. They let an old white guy like me who can't jump play and are very kind when my youngest son, now 9, wants to play, gving the little guy great ball tips. The only trouble I have ever had with anyone in the park was with dogs, but lets not go there- especially since it now seems so elegantly resolved, that issue. And really, life in a city is about having public interaction with people like you and people not like you. Its about an agora like that which existed in the ancient polis as a defining aspect of civilization.
BTW, Van Vorst is a pretty park, nice for reading, strolling, etc. but no good for any recreation for anyone over the age of 4 or maybe 5. That might be ok because that is a smaller park and also that neighborhood abutts Liberty State Park (which also needs to get up to speed with active recreation and forget the bias for passive use that the Friends are obsessed with). Sure, basketball should stop at 10:00 pm, but there are many ways to accomplish this. I am sure that there is a way to ensure reasonable use that balances the concerns of all.



Please, it's not a field of dreams. There is plenty of room near Holland Gardens for BB courts. In fact, they have some that just need some basic repair and upkeep. You can alleviate your white guilt by helping to fix them up! After all "they" "let" you play so you can have a great game over there anytime far away from people's homes. Maybe some of you can buy one of those portable hoops and throw it up on the street in front of YOUR house? Probably not huh?

Posted on: 2010/6/3 11:14
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Sure, basketball should stop at 10:00 pm, but there are many ways to accomplish this.


That pretty much sums up the problem. Even though there seems to be many ways to accomplish this, not one way has been successful. And this has been the case for many many years.

Posted on: 2010/6/3 9:49
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I'll swap my house on Pacific and Communipau for anyone who is burdened by living on Hamilton Park (and before someone objects to my coming in to the neighborhood, my kids live there with their x, I lived there for five years, and my father and uncles went to St. Michaels and practiced track in the park in the 1930s). There is nothing better than the experience of a free public basketball court. It is a true democracy. Hamilton Park is the park for the people adjacent to it as well as the people who live in Holland Gardens. The players on the park represent that fact. I have been struck by how egalitarian and pervaded by a sense of fair play the court is infused with. They let an old white guy like me who can't jump play and are very kind when my youngest son, now 9, wants to play, gving the little guy great ball tips. The only trouble I have ever had with anyone in the park was with dogs, but lets not go there- especially since it now seems so elegantly resolved, that issue. And really, life in a city is about having public interaction with people like you and people not like you. Its about an agora like that which existed in the ancient polis as a defining aspect of civilization.
BTW, Van Vorst is a pretty park, nice for reading, strolling, etc. but no good for any recreation for anyone over the age of 4 or maybe 5. That might be ok because that is a smaller park and also that neighborhood abutts Liberty State Park (which also needs to get up to speed with active recreation and forget the bias for passive use that the Friends are obsessed with). Sure, basketball should stop at 10:00 pm, but there are many ways to accomplish this. I am sure that there is a way to ensure reasonable use that balances the concerns of all.

Posted on: 2010/6/3 9:33
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Update
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I'll propose a solution: Put a CLUB on the basketball rims at 10pm. Take it off in the morning. I had a court in my yard years back and the neighborhood kids would play games in my yard during the day when we were away. So I put the CLUB there and it stopped them from playing and ruining my garden.


This was a solution proposed last night at the HPNA meeting. Fulup was there and said that you can't rely on the city being responsible enough to put the device on and take it off when it is supposed to be.

Also, something like this was talked about among some of the people during the planning of the park renovation. The reason why nothing like this was installed was due to the fear of the courts being vandalized.

Posted on: 2010/6/3 9:04
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I'll propose a solution:

Put a CLUB on the basketball rims at 10pm. Take it off in the morning.

I had a court in my yard years back and the neighborhood kids would play games in my yard during the day when we were away. So I put the CLUB there and it stopped them from playing and ruining my garden.

Posted on: 2010/6/3 0:17
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The basketball court has been there for years. Those who bought the properties on that side of the park knew what they were getting into so I don't think it is fair to say the basketball court devalues the properties on the park. If anything, the renovation of the park has probably added some value to every property on the park and the neighborhood in general. However, I agree that the court should close at a certain hour.

It is really great that we all take ownership to this park and the park is for everyone. Everyone in JC contributes a part of their tax money to renovate and maintain the public parks.

By the way, WTF, the basketball court and whorehouse?


When those homes were on the market and then sold there were no signs of a BB court. It was just an area where material was piled and trucks were parked. No doubt the realtors played dumb if questioned about what exactly would be there. Anyone who thinks that a BB court so close to homes is acceptable is just a NIMBY buffoon. If you could imagine what those homeowners go through night after night after night then perhaps you could begin to comprehend. These people were boned by the HPNA.

Posted on: 2010/6/3 0:13
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All is peaceful over here at Van Vorst Park....

Posted on: 2010/6/3 0:04
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If I had to hear them at night I'd certainly being saying something to whoever is out there. I just can't advocating making up stories so the cops will come out. That just invites them to not take a serious report, well, seriously.

That said, the cops were at that park entrance when I went by about 20 minutes ago. There were some folks on the court that seemed to be getting ready to leave (possibly drunk, the girl stumbled). Don't know what the story was, but maybe somebody here took the initiative.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 23:59
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hamiltonparkjc wrote:
The irony of you getting a good night sleep from doing something unethical and illegal is just too funny to take seriously.


Well...........



In truth
It actually doesnt bother me. I am on 8th so I very rarely hear them. I do feel for that side of the block. I would never do it, it is why I said " you will be getting a good nights sleep." Don't let my avatar fool you, I am one big chicken.

In actuality they ( the kids playing hoop) are the ones that are doing something illegal and unethical. Noise after 10:00pm! Littering.
I was just out there. Today is Wednesday, it is both a school and a work day tomm. They are loud, swearing and their game is not anywhere near being over! It's to cool for a/c and is a perfect night for open windows... Or not....
If I lived where I could hear them I may be crancky enough to call the cops on them and get them to shut up.
Courts are a mess again BTW. Do we have a solution yet? clean up crew etc. tell me where to sign up.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 22:13
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When they renovated Terrace Park up in the Heights the local block association worked with the head of DPW not just the Parks Div. The block association demanded no basketball courts in it's new design. There used to be one there but it was too disturbing so it was replaced by a tennis court, luckily there is only room for one court. Lights are shut off at night. Basketball courts attract many players, a large viewing crowd, some there to watch others to loiter, and a constant bouncing ball. I also wonder if there is such a thing as a "neighborhood" park ? Even though all city tax dollars go to all city parks eventually we all get out fair share. It's tough to say how far the neighborhood stretches. Is this the only basketball in the area reaching towards the tunnel ? If you are irked bad enough the neighborhood will take control, the question is what neighborhood...residents or the BB crowd ?

Posted on: 2010/6/2 21:54
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The irony of you getting a good night sleep from doing something unethical and illegal is just too funny to take seriously.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 21:47
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hamiltonparkjc wrote:
Sure, cry wolf. Can't see anything going wrong with that.

I am not saying that it is right but.... The cops will get sick and tired of it and you can bet your dollar that they will put an end to it pretty darn fast!! You will be sleeping soundly..sooner not later.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 21:25
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Sure, cry wolf. Can't see anything going wrong with that.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 21:21
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What does bother me is that I have called the police and will continue to do so, but I wish they would be a little more pro-active given the police station is two blocks away on 7th St. I think that if enough people call the police on a regular basis they would just patrol around the park on their own without being prompted. One way would be that instead of just driving by and using the megaphone, why not, for the first few months, stop by in the park, take down names and see who is playing. If it is the same people every night, issue a fine for disturbing the peace and if this still doesn't act as a deterrent, bring it up a notch each time it happens. While this would be an onerous way to deal with the noise issue, it would probably not be an issue after doing this on a regular basis over one summer.


When you call you have to tell them that is very loud and that you think there is a huge FIGHT. They respond with in seconds

Posted on: 2010/6/2 20:11
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The basketball court has been there for years. Those who bought the properties on that side of the park knew what they were getting into so I don't think it is fair to say the basketball court devalues the properties on the park. If anything, the renovation of the park has probably added some value to every property on the park and the neighborhood in general. However, I agree that the court should close at a certain hour.

It is really great that we all take ownership to this park and the park is for everyone. Everyone in JC contributes a part of their tax money to renovate and maintain the public parks.

By the way, WTF, the basketball court and whorehouse?

Posted on: 2010/6/2 18:39
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BMS1979 wrote:
Actually they haven't started using those lights, I expect that they will start using them in the summer with the community league. Without those lights on, the street lights and the new lights they have that stay on all night in the park provide enough for these kids to stay out there. I don't think turning off all the lights in the park at night is such a good idea if only for safety concerns.

I know, can't have it all ways, but if the park hours were enforced this wouldn't be an issue.


Under NO circumstances should those park lights be turned off at night.
That is asking for lots and lots of trouble.

100% correct on the park hours being enforced. There would be no issue what so ever!

Posted on: 2010/6/2 16:02
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Actually they haven't started using those lights, I expect that they will start using them in the summer with the community league. Without those lights on, the street lights and the new lights they have that stay on all night in the park provide enough for these kids to stay out there. I don't think turning off all the lights in the park at night is such a good idea if only for safety concerns.

I know, can't have it all ways, but if the park hours were enforced this wouldn't be an issue.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 14:46
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BMS1979 wrote:
I specifically opposed the high powered lighting and bleachers as being overkill for a public basketball court.


do those lights stay on all night?! here's an idea: turn them off at 10pm.

or do the kids still play BB in the dark?

Posted on: 2010/6/2 14:39
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I have never posted on this website ever and I feel the need to post now. I DO live on 9th Street, directly across from the basketball court and I did oppose the improvements to the basketball courts and wrote as such when I voted for the park design. No, I don't blame anyone, it is my own fault for not attending neighborhood meetings due to the hours I work. I specifically opposed the high powered lighting and bleachers as being overkill for a public basketball court. Don't get me wrong, I think the basketball court is great, I love to watch some of these guys play, especially given the proximity to St. Anthony's school and the talent that comes out of their program, but in the summertime, playing sometimes until 3 in the morning is too much. What does bother me is that I have called the police and will continue to do so, but I wish they would be a little more pro-active given the police station is two blocks away on 7th St. I think that if enough people call the police on a regular basis they would just patrol around the park on their own without being prompted. One way would be that instead of just driving by and using the megaphone, why not, for the first few months, stop by in the park, take down names and see who is playing. If it is the same people every night, issue a fine for disturbing the peace and if this still doesn't act as a deterrent, bring it up a notch each time it happens. While this would be an onerous way to deal with the noise issue, it would probably not be an issue after doing this on a regular basis over one summer.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 14:21
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Actually there is a noise ordinance, the park does close at 10pm, and the cops will enforce it if we bitch enough. The problem is you can't part bitch. You cant have the cops enforce part of the law and not the other ( park closeing at 10pm.) So the kids can scream and I guess who ever wants to use the park after 10pm can do so also.


I've called the cops a few times after being woken up at night by people playing basketball. Less than 50% of the time did they actually show up, and when they did, it was almost always at least a half hour after I called.

It's just another known issue that doesn't get addressed.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 13:15
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Here are your strategy choices:

1) How about the crew that maintains Enos Jones Park do the same for Hamilton Park? How is it that they have their own special crew while HP simply gets a garbage pick-up in the morning and a mowing every couple of months?

2) Cordero, McNair, St. Anthony's and the Nursery Schools should send out their city-paid workers to do a sweep up in the morning and after lunch. The kids from those schools use the park more than most. I have seen those schools using the park for their Gym classes and after school sports practices.

3) The city pay a stipend to a local resident to maintain and clean the park.


These are your best choices outside of private citizens doing all the work. I have nothing against that choice but we do pay massive taxes for these simple services. The guy who runs the BB leagues will do us no good. He is not out there all day and night long. I commend him for cleaning up after league games in years past but how about the kids doing it so they might learn a little pride?



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stevehpna wrote:
On June 12th the 25th ANNIVERSARY HAMILTON PARK FESTIVAL
& Park Re-opening Ceremony will take place in Hamilton Park -- see http://hpnajc.blogspot.com/.

As Stani mentioned the monthly HPNA membership meeting is tonight, June 2. information is available here. Strategies to Keep the park litter free will be discussed.

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Rachel_Rae wrote:
Keep in mind I am new...
Is there a Hamilton Park board or alliance?

If so does it hold benefits/ fundraisers?

Also, I am curious about adding recycling bins, and possibly information pamphlets handed out to park users.

While I am not in favor of confrontational behavior, a little passive aggressive smiling and talking goes a long way.

I would volunteer to do it myself :)

Posted on: 2010/6/2 13:13
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The basketball court has been packed with guys enjoyng it every time I've been down there, so that shows that there is a need for it.


If there was a whore house in the middle of HP, it would be packed every night. That doesn't mean there is a need for it. If Lady Gaga decided to have a concert in HP, it would be packed, but that doesn't mean there is a need for it.

Parks always have basketball courts, yes I agree. But the basketball court in HP is too close to peoples' homes. Simple as that. I even think the kids' playground is too close to peoples' homes. The screaming and yelling by all the kids gives me the chills. BUT, those kids are usually not still outside screaming and yelling once the sun goes down.

Not that the 10pm park closure is enforced, but even that is too late.

And also, the park shouldn't need to be closed at 10. All we need is some kind of noise ordinance. AND the damn cops to enforce it.


Actually there is a noise ordinance, the park does close at 10pm, and the cops will enforce it if we bitch enough.
The problem is you can't part bitch. You cant have the cops enforce part of the law and not the other ( park closeing at 10pm.) So the kids can scream and I guess who ever wants to use the park after 10pm can do so also. In other words the dog owners. And before I get attacked, Yes I am a dog owner and yes I do use the park after 10pm. BUT... I would give that up and walk on the side walk for no screaming in the middle of the night!

Posted on: 2010/6/2 13:10
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I agree. It is no accident that 2 brownstones and a condo, directly across from the court, were sold while the park was closed. If the court was open and in full swing no doubt it would have had an impact on the buyers and the selling price. No one is begrudging people their BB games but there is a time and a place. Enos Jones is the perfect location. It is far away from residents homes. It was a huge mistake to expose the residents on 9th Street to the nuisance that is the BB court.


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The basketball court has been packed with guys enjoyng it every time I've been down there, so that shows that there is a need for it.


If there was a whore house in the middle of HP, it would be packed every night. That doesn't mean there is a need for it. If Lady Gaga decided to have a concert in HP, it would be packed, but that doesn't mean there is a need for it.

Parks always have basketball courts, yes I agree. But the basketball court in HP is too close to peoples' homes. Simple as that. I even think the kids' playground is too close to peoples' homes. The screaming and yelling by all the kids gives me the chills. BUT, those kids are usually not still outside screaming and yelling once the sun goes down.

Not that the 10pm park closure is enforced, but even that is too late.

And also, the park shouldn't need to be closed at 10. All we need is some kind of noise ordinance. AND the damn cops to enforce it.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 12:58
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I remember watching the videos of the public park planning meetings and think I remember that Minnie didn't seem to think the park needed anything that she personally didn't like.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 12:33
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I even think the kids' playground is too close to peoples' homes. The screaming and yelling by all the kids gives me the chills.


I love that the standard response line of, "You don't like noise? What did you expect; you chose to live next to a bar, police station, PATH entrance or beerhall" can now include "park".

Posted on: 2010/6/2 12:31
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Who decided that HP is not a recreational park? Even before the renovation, it played host to basketball, tennis, cricket, football, and soccer, in addition to the small children's playground that was there?

I think it's great to have the recreational opportunities in the park (including basketball). However, I do think the park should close at a reasonable hour. In addition to quieting the basketball court, it would ensure that the late-night hours would be free of children/teens in the playground (this has been going on until at least 10/10:30) and barking dogs. Is it possible to enforce this? I don't know.

As for the litter, I think community involvement/education is the way to go.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 12:11
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If I remember correctly, Minnie, there were a number of options residents were given of different park configurations to choose from (including some crazy-ass option to add miniature golf).
Among these options there was no proposal to remove the basketball court although there were options to remove one or both tennis courts.

Effectively the preservation of the basketball court had been already decided in a smoke-filled room.

It's very easy for some people here to play the race card in an effort to halt further discussion of this issue. This is about quality of life issues such as noise and disturbance on the court late at night which has nothing whatsoever to do with race.
I notice that the person that was using innuendo to invoke a charge of racism does not live on the square in close proximity to the court. I hope that person and her children will continue to enjoy the use of the park but will consider the thoughts of others who may have good reason to regret the use of the park by noisy people at unsocial hours regardless of whether those noisy people are basketball players or shrieking kids in the playground.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 11:47
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The basketball court has been packed with guys enjoyng it every time I've been down there, so that shows that there is a need for it.


If there was a whore house in the middle of HP, it would be packed every night. That doesn't mean there is a need for it. If Lady Gaga decided to have a concert in HP, it would be packed, but that doesn't mean there is a need for it.

Parks always have basketball courts, yes I agree. But the basketball court in HP is too close to peoples' homes. Simple as that. I even think the kids' playground is too close to peoples' homes. The screaming and yelling by all the kids gives me the chills. BUT, those kids are usually not still outside screaming and yelling once the sun goes down.

Not that the 10pm park closure is enforced, but even that is too late.

And also, the park shouldn't need to be closed at 10. All we need is some kind of noise ordinance. AND the damn cops to enforce it.

Posted on: 2010/6/2 11:37
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linky wrote:

The basketball court has been packed with guys enjoyng it every time I've been down there, so that shows that there is a need for it.



At the time the study was taken, there was a basketball court at the end of 8th street in the Enos Jones park. For those not familiar with Enos Jones park, it was set up for the purpose of recreation and is part of the Hamilton Park neighborhood. This court was not as popular as the court in HP even though it’s just a few blocks away.

Nobody was advocating for the complete removal of both basketball courts in our neighborhood. The court in question was the court in Hamilton Park. I recall the comments at the meetings from residents…. “why do we need two courts” and “why not move the HP court over to Enos Jones park and put them together". Enos Jones is a recreational park. The fact is that this neighborhood has three parks, two of which contain Little League Fields.

And for those crying about racism… it wasn’t just the basketball court that was causing a problem, it was also the two tennis courts and a proposal was on the table to move the two tennis courts over to 10th street to add more green space in front of the Hamilton Square buildings. In the end, no courts (tennis or basketball) were relocated.

On my last visit to Enos Jones park, I don’t recall seeing that old basketball court. I have the impression that it’s been removed, perhaps because it was not used very much. Can anybody confirm if the court at Enos Jones park is still there, and if not, why it was taken out if it was so popular?

Posted on: 2010/6/2 11:13
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On June 12th the 25th ANNIVERSARY HAMILTON PARK FESTIVAL
& Park Re-opening Ceremony will take place in Hamilton Park -- see http://hpnajc.blogspot.com/.

As Stani mentioned the monthly HPNA membership meeting is tonight, June 2. information is available here. Strategies to Keep the park litter free will be discussed.

Quote:

Rachel_Rae wrote:
Keep in mind I am new...
Is there a Hamilton Park board or alliance?

If so does it hold benefits/ fundraisers?

Also, I am curious about adding recycling bins, and possibly information pamphlets handed out to park users.

While I am not in favor of confrontational behavior, a little passive aggressive smiling and talking goes a long way.

I would volunteer to do it myself :)

Posted on: 2010/6/2 10:43
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