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Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
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Please excuse the heavy editing.

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Frank_M wrote:
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AmyJCNJ wrote:
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It's called Planned Obsolescence...

For example, how much you want to bet that roads will have to be repaved again in 10 years. If you've ever driven on a highway in Germany...



Germany certainly does have excellent roadways, but their construction and maintenance costs money. Where do you think it comes from?



My point is, if you want something built correctly the first time go to the experts...


Okay... staying relevant to the point you claimed that the new PATH trains were constructed with the idea of "planned obsolescence" in mind. I disagree. As evidence of the entire vehicle's allegedly suspect nature, you cite inoperative air conditioning systems while having no knowledge of their mode of failure. That's in an incomplete, if not cynical, assessment. If PATH and/or Kawasaki really wanted to cut corners, the stainless steel skin would have been the first premium item to be eliminated as its most valuable trait is longevity. I do agree we should defer to experts when we want something built correctly. Fortunately, Kawasaki is an expert in the construction of rail cars. Aside from one simple issue that will most likely be resolved, is there anything else that indicates to you they were built to a low standard? Have you experienced problems with acceleration, braking, door operation, or any other critical function? I haven't.

Regarding the DC accident, little direct comparison can be made. The NTSB had previously expressed concern about the safety of old cars which was not related to anecdotal problems with air conditioning systems. The sky isn't falling just yet.

Off topic, I've heard the "Why can't America do things the way Germany does," argument too many times before. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Aside from cigarettes and beer virtually everything seems to cost more in Germany, and not just by a small margin. It has a all-powerful federal system that is able to employ a one-size-fits-all approach that simply won't fly in our much less homogeneous society. It is also has 25% of the population of U.S but less than 4% of the area. I know jack about geopolitics, socioeconomics, or whatever academic fields this issue falls under, but common sense and simple math tells me their approach does not have the potential to scale up effectively. Besides, German citizens are not saving money over the long term by taking a bigger hit on first-cost. They may reap the benefits in other ways, but they still keep paying and paying. There's a strong chance I may be living there in the future, Hamburg preferably, but I'm not thrilled about certain economic prospects.

Bis dann!

Posted on: 2009/9/29 10:56
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Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
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Sorry totally off topic:

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Frank_M wrote:
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AmyJCNJ wrote:
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ErinMaiden wrote:
thats the SECOND time i've heard the A/C was broken in a new train. when will they learn you get what you pay for. its like the elevators at the lite rail 9th street station. every week one goes down.


It's called Planned Obsolescence and it permeates everything from consumer products to public transportation. 50 years ago stuff was built to last, now you can figure on a 10 year life span at the most at the taxpayer and consumer's expense.

For example, how much you want to bet that roads will have to be repaved again in 10 years. If you've ever driven on a highway in Germany you would see no pot holes, no cracks, rarely. The reason why is they use better and more durable contrustruction materials. Failure is built into the system here in the US because the contractors get big bucks from the state to repair and replace. And the money flow from planned obsolescence keeps our good old economy afloat. The Story of Stuff


Germany certainly does have excellent roadways, but their construction and maintenance costs money. Where do you think it comes from? The fruits of their impressive taxation policies and fuel prices seem obvious. Also, are you sure they use better materials? Higher traffic volume, greater vehicle weight, and a more severe climate all contribute to accelerated wear of roadways in the northeastern United States relative to Germany.


Nope German roadways are specifically designed to last longer and the weather conditions just as harsh as the northeast with snowy mountainous regions in the south and low lying shorelines in the north. Yes it does come at price but it's done right the first time and cost the same over the long term.
Sources:

http://www.tfhrc.gov/focus/oct06/02.htm
http://international.fhwa.dot.gov/pubs/pl07027/llcp_07_03.cfm
German Autobahn History

My point is, if you want something built correctly the first time go to the experts. Another example: levee construction in the US is completely inferior compared to Europe. The Dutch are far superior at constructing dykes and they are built to hold.

Back to the PATH trains:
My beef is on several occasions, not just one, I've encountered a new train with a/c failure. The conductor confirmed it was broken and apologized, so it's not a failure of how to operate the equipment. I think it's unacceptable. If I'm spending a $1Mil on a piece of equipment I expect it to work. An A/C problem is a pretty minor issue, but I think it foreshadows problems to come down the line. If that is failing already, what else is going to fail on these trains in the future? A failure on these trains can cost lives. Look what happened in DC earlier this year. Equipment failures should be taken seriously no matter how minor.

Posted on: 2009/9/28 17:46
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Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
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ErinMaiden wrote:
thats the SECOND time i've heard the A/C was broken in a new train. when will they learn you get what you pay for. its like the elevators at the lite rail 9th street station. every week one goes down.


It's called Planned Obsolescence and it permeates everything from consumer products to public transportation. 50 years ago stuff was built to last, now you can figure on a 10 year life span at the most at the taxpayer and consumer's expense.

For example, how much you want to bet that roads will have to be repaved again in 10 years. If you've ever driven on a highway in Germany you would see no pot holes, no cracks, rarely. The reason why is they use better and more durable contrustruction materials. Failure is built into the system here in the US because the contractors get big bucks from the state to repair and replace. And the money flow from planned obsolescence keeps our good old economy afloat. The Story of Stuff


Germany certainly does have excellent roadways, but their construction and maintenance costs money. Where do you think it comes from? The fruits of their impressive taxation policies and fuel prices seem obvious. Also, are you sure they use better materials? Higher traffic volume, greater vehicle weight, and a more severe climate all contribute to accelerated wear of roadways in the northeastern United States relative to Germany.

Civil projects are constructed to meet a specified budget and life span, but they are not planned to become "obsolete" or maintenance nightmares as some sort of greedy maneuver. Granted, the aspect of quality in consumer goods is valued in European counties more so than in the United States where we tend to be more keen on quantity, but that's another discussion.

That brings us back to our fancy new Japanese trains--do they really appear to you as being built to a low standard?? An inoperative air conditioning system is hardly grounds to throw the train under the bus, especially considering that many operators and technicians are probably not yet intimately familiar with the new cars.

Regardless of this weekend's confusion or a recent half-assed internet survey, PATH has taken a phenomenal number of people to and from Manhattan at least five days a week during the past few years without fail. It's orders of magnitude more reliable than an MTA subway system that is a perpetual machine of frustrating surprises.

Posted on: 2009/9/28 17:19
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Re: PATH (pathetic attempt at transporting humans)
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ErinMaiden wrote:
thats the SECOND time i've heard the A/C was broken in a new train. when will they learn you get what you pay for. its like the elevators at the lite rail 9th street station. every week one goes down.


It's called Planned Obsolescence and it permeates everything from consumer products to public transportation. 50 years ago stuff was built to last, now you can figure on a 10 year life span at the most at the taxpayer and consumer's expense.

For example, how much you want to bet that roads will have to be repaved again in 10 years. If you've ever driven on a highway in Germany you would see no pot holes, no cracks, rarely. The reason why is they use better and more durable contrustruction materials. Failure is built into the system here in the US because the contractors get big bucks from the state to repair and replace. And the money flow from planned obsolescence keeps our good old economy afloat. The Story of Stuff

Posted on: 2009/9/28 14:38
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thats the SECOND time i've heard the A/C was broken in a new train. when will they learn you get what you pay for. its like the elevators at the lite rail 9th street station. every week one goes down.

Posted on: 2009/9/28 12:46
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I actually rode in one of the new cars to WTC this morning. They seem to be okay. Much brighter inside. Didn't do much checking out as I was still waking up.


Yeah I was in one of the new cars last week. The ride is much smoother however the AC was already broken int he car I was in - on a brand new train car! That is just unacceptable.

We ended up taking the WTC and then the subway to 14th because we didn't want to take a chance of being late. we left at 6:12pm and arrived at the Union sq station at 6:45 via 6 train. I think it was the better choice.
We took 33rd street train home with no problems or detours. strange.

Posted on: 2009/9/28 12:40
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I actually rode in one of the new cars to WTC this morning. They seem to be okay. Much brighter inside. Didn't do much checking out as I was still waking up.

Posted on: 2009/9/27 13:28
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There is a path supervisor at the Hoboken music and arts festival selling smartlink cards. Everyone who is annoyed about anything path related should make their complaints known!

Posted on: 2009/9/27 13:17
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I'm surprised Debbie Duhane didn't make all this clear.

Posted on: 2009/9/27 12:35
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Someone just returned from Boston and swears they saw the new PATH cars running up there.

Posted on: 2009/9/27 11:30
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yesterday was a huge mess.... and the conductor who was shouting the schedule couldn't have been less helpful if he tried - all they kept saying is that they were going to exchange place ..... no mention of the WTC stop in the city and then back out to Pavonia (this was at 9:30ish)
once we stopped at WTC we got out fast and went to the subway since there was no way I was going back to NJ and witting at HOB

there were alerts in the station but it didn't say anything but addition stop at exchange place.... which is NOT really what happened at all

coming home it seemed that the trains weren't on schedule either since the WTC to NWK is usually on the 30 min and nothing came at 3AM but there was one at 3:30 ish

I just don't understand how the whole extra trip into the city and then back out was deemed irrelevant and not put on the sign?

Posted on: 2009/9/27 10:51
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dwntwntrain,

According to the e-mail alert the mess was just for one day, Saturday, 9/26.
But since this is PATH we are talking about, catch an earlier train just in case.

Posted on: 2009/9/27 10:25
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Does anyone know if the JSQ to 33rd Street line is stopping at Exchange place today, or was that just yesterday?

Waiting for the NWK bound train at WTC last night around midnight I was surprised to see a 33rd Via Hoboken train making the loop at WTC. WTF

Posted on: 2009/9/27 9:45
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I too was surprised by the Exchange Place detour that took us all the way to WTC, and so were my fellow passengers. would it kill PATH to post a couple signs when they do this? so much unnecessary confusion.

Posted on: 2009/9/27 8:44
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Was going from Grove St. to 9th St. I read the PATH Alert to mean there would be one extra stop at Exchange Place.

Nope. The train went from Grove to Exchange to WORLD TRADE back to Exchange to Pavonia to Hoboken to Christopher to 9th.

Yes, I could've, should've gotten off at WTC and gotten MTA or, seriously, just walked at that point I still would've gotten there sooner.

Between that and the guy on my left who kept spitting and the guy on my right who reeked of booze... it was not a great adventure.

Just with PATH would've been a little more forthcoming with what "via exchange place" meant.

Posted on: 2009/9/27 1:36
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AmyJCNJ wrote:
Can someone explain to me what this means?
Should I walk over to Pavornia to take the PATH instead of waiting at Grove? When (at night, during the day) is the work being done? huh?

PATHAlert
9/25/2009 5:36:26 PM
September 26 PATH will perform major switch replacement work. Trains traveling to 33rd Street will operate via Exchange Place. Please allow additional travel time.


Just got that too - think it means that it'll make all regular stops PLUS exchange


From PATH on Twitter:

Tomorrow & Sunday, JSQ/33 (via HOB) will stop at EX PL after GRV, and then continue to HOB. 33/JSQ (via HOB) unaffected. #PANYNJ

so 33rd st-bound hits up exchange after grove. jsq-bound is unchanged

Posted on: 2009/9/25 19:47
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I think it probably means that 33rd Street Trains will go 33rd - Christopher => Hob => Pavonia => Exchange, without providing direct service to Journal Square.

Posted on: 2009/9/25 18:09
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AmyJCNJ wrote:
Can someone explain to me what this means?
Should I walk over to Pavornia to take the PATH instead of waiting at Grove? When (at night, during the day) is the work being done? huh?

PATHAlert
9/25/2009 5:36:26 PM
September 26 PATH will perform major switch replacement work. Trains traveling to 33rd Street will operate via Exchange Place. Please allow additional travel time.


Just got that too - think it means that it'll make all regular stops PLUS exchange

Posted on: 2009/9/25 17:56
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Can someone explain to me what this means?
Should I walk over to Pavornia to take the PATH instead of waiting at Grove? When (at night, during the day) is the work being done? huh?

PATHAlert
9/25/2009 5:36:26 PM
September 26 PATH will perform major switch replacement work. Trains traveling to 33rd Street will operate via Exchange Place. Please allow additional travel time.

Posted on: 2009/9/25 17:48
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An attempt to bring this thread back on track...

Has anyone else noticed an increase in PATH cars without AC?? All Summer long, I have noticed an increase in the amount of trains that pull in with a car that is lacking proper AC. Riding in a sweltering car is just a terrible way to start (or finish) a work day.

Is this a natural result from the PA's move towards new trains? For all I know, the PA may have decided to cut back on maintenance and repairs to existing trains as new ones are phased in.

And, YES, I realize that if you walk into a car with a broken AC you could just switch at the next station, but that is hard to do at busy stations during rush hour, or when saddled with bags, a bicycle or other carry-ons.

Posted on: 2009/9/23 20:32
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We have created an independent survey of PATH train service.

PATHSUX

Plus fill out a survey and voice your concerns.

Already 700+ responses, and it has only been up 3 weeks.

Posted on: 2009/9/23 13:12
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My favorite was yesterday. The train pulled into 23rd st Station with "yellow" lights atop and JSQ in the middle. Well after 14th/9th/ and Christopher street the doors closed. Then and only then did they make the announcement " Hoboken next stop." No one bothered to change the lights and/or signs. Loved that one. Oh by the way it was 1/2 my fault but I was reading and did not pay attention. Just the same I say

Posted on: 2009/9/22 20:01
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heights wrote:
You know what's worse than a train running late a train running early. The PATH can run 2 minutes early so be sure to be there earlier than on time. N.J. Transit states that on their schedules. If the train does arrive early it should wait till the minute strikes before they pull out.


No, this is not how rapid transit systems work. The PATH leaves from its terminus at a scheduled time, but does not wait in between the terminus stations unless held by the dispatch for a specific reason. This is how the New York City subway operates, and nearly every other rapid transit system in the world.

Yes the PATH does leave the initial departure station at the percise time of stated departure. Sometimes the PATH does wait and Transit usually waits till the minute arrives.

Posted on: 2009/9/22 13:17
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You know what's worse than a train running late a train running early. The PATH can run 2 minutes early so be sure to be there earlier than on time. N.J. Transit states that on their schedules. If the train does arrive early it should wait till the minute strikes before they pull out.


No, this is not how rapid transit systems work. The PATH leaves from its terminus at a scheduled time, but does not wait in between the terminus stations unless held by the dispatch for a specific reason. This is how the New York City subway operates, and nearly every other rapid transit system in the world.

Posted on: 2009/9/22 13:10
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You know what's worse than a train running late a train running early. The PATH can run 2 minutes early so be sure to be there earlier than on time. N.J. Transit states that on their schedules. If the train does arrive early it should wait till the minute strikes before they pull out.

Posted on: 2009/9/22 12:37
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My favorite backpackers are the ones that act like they've forgotten it's back there. @$#@$@#$@$%^^!!!!!!

Bring a pair of snipps that'll learn them !

Posted on: 2009/9/22 12:33
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Aren't they supposed to be improving the PATH...?

Posted on: 2009/9/21 23:32
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I love the insertion of that there "(mostly Indian)".

Posted on: 2009/9/21 23:08
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those (mostly Indian) men with the backpacks are probably the worst thing about the Path. It's amazing they don't realize how huge they are and that they hit evvvveerrything


I mostly agree with you, but I'm going to confess that I've started carrying a backpack to work. I bring work home with me nearly every night, and between carting all of that paperwork back and forth and carrying my lunch and my shoes, a purse (even a big woman's totebag) just wasn't big enough (plus it got really heavy on my shoulder).

I promise I try not to whack people with my bag, and when the train is crowded I take the backpack off and carry it in front of me.

Also, I know I probably look really dorky. I considered this, and decided that I just don't care =)

p.s. I'm not an Indian man.

Posted on: 2009/9/21 22:26
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My favorite backpackers are the ones that act like they've forgotten it's back there. @$#@$@#$@$%^^!!!!!!

Posted on: 2009/9/21 22:18
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