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Re: Embankment- Update Thread |
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Home away from home
 
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Thanks.
A "new" idea occurred to me: * Embankment into a park, as discussed. * 6th Street one-way westbound. * light rail on 6th street connecting whereever in the northwest to Th. Gangemi/ Newport Mall, and back. * along the way, the light rail would pass by FOUR parks (Mary Benson, Enos Jones, Embankment, and the 6th/ Manila baseball field). Yep. 6th street is wide enough to accomodate the light rail and one-way only traffic. The walkway next to the Embankment would not be necessary because the Embankment would be a footpath and there's a sidewalk on the other side. The light rail would go two-ways. Some streets are similar to this in Paulus Hook. Most of 6th is one way already. Cons: Holy Rosary and St. Anthony of Padua's would object. So would the two-many drivers who use it as a cut-through to get back to Newark Avenue. (But we should not encourage that, anyway). Also, there's a parking question, but a light rail encourages car-less living. Pros: their parishioners love to take the light rail! Running the light rail at street level satisfies the Mayor and other light rail aficionados, secures the park, connects the downtown (incl. park) to the Heights and other constituencies. Also, why make the light rail climb onto the embankment if it doesn't have to? Lots of wasted energy there.
Posted on: 2009/5/6 8:49
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Just can't stay away
 
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Nicely put. Xerxes has the intellectual fire power of an asthmatic blowing through a straw, but you handled it well. To Xerxes: CAPSLOCK is not your friend. Go an hero, you Republican dinosaur.
Posted on: 2009/5/4 22:08
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Home away from home
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Why do you believe JERSEY CITY preservationists want to save "everything"? THEY DON'T.
We know the answer, so don't bother: you disagree with their vision of what should be preserved, except that you're glad some preserved things are still intact: Loews. Stanley. Dickinson High. Hague Hospital (now with a new use). You look at a building, and, just by looking at it, you know it's inherent value in that role at that time, and forever into the future for all possible roles and all possible times. Recall that you capitalized EVERYTHING four or five times, and put it in quotes as well, and then said the Embankment and the Power House constitute "everything"-ish blight. Thus, you apparently DO believe JC preservationists want to save everything. They don't. (P.S. I'm not one). THEY SET PRIORITIES, as you admit, though those priorities are not yours, or the priorities may change as circumstances change. Here are some priorities: http://www.jclandmarks.org/campaign-bergenarches.shtml Because you consider the Embankment to be "junk" and "blight", the preservationists who look to preserve it are not good preservationists. You don't value parks, apparently. You want more real estate! Either you work in (de)construction, or real estate... because if you want more density and less green space, self-interest must be your motive. So, do you? You did not answer whether you think these properties can be "saved" for a use you consider a productive, beneficial use, so we can only speculate as to what a good purpose is for you, the Emperor of Persia and Preservation. A good preservationist is one preserves what His Highness wants preserved because it serves "a real purpose." Apparently, preservation cannot be for it's own sake. Only for a modern, purposive sake. If something loses it's purpose, and is in your view unsightly or geographically divisive, it should be torn down before any non-purposive use, as only you deem them to be, can be considered for the site. The only exception to that rule was the Hague hospital, which you want filled with suburbanite yuppy condo-owners, which you deem to be an acceptable modern re-use of an old structure.
Posted on: 2009/5/4 20:06
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Home away from home
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So: why do you believe preservationists want to save "everything"? My post was very precise and NOWHERE did I say "preservationists want to save everything." GOOD, VALUABLE preservationists are discriminating in what they work towards saving. My implication was that those working in Jersey City are NOT good preservationists because they work hard to save things the city can better do without...like this mess of old rock that divides the city for no purpose. Many REAL preservationists have damned the building of the BQE because it walls off part of the city. The awful embankment, like the monstrosity of a wall built along Washington Blvd. to support the light rail do the same thing. Why do I think the "preservationists" in Jersey City deserve the quotes? Because they don't know good from bad and waste time on falling down horrors like the Betz Brewery (now razed) and the ultimate nightmare, the Power House. (No, I'll correct that...the Embankment is the WORST of the worst...the ultimate blight from the choo-choo era. Why is their no more interest in the ARCHES? What is this nonsense about the Embankment serving as the bike path on the greenway instead of the Arches? Did the JC "preservationists" get tired of a decent idea? Why work to save the hideous Betz brewery while allowing the Majestic theater to be demolished except for a single front wall. No there is nothing wrong with good honest preservation. But there's no such thing like that among the gadflies in Jersey City POSING as preservationists. As for the straw man Newport rebuttal...nonsense. My post was directed squarely at the person who said that since I lived in Newport I must have no taste...I suppose HE lives in a tent on the tasteful Embankment or in the Powerhouse?THus I did not put up the Newport straw man, someone ELSE did...but it fit my argument reasonably well because had the same "preservationists" BEEN downtown at the time, I'm sure there were a couple monstrosities still standing they would have tried to save. But most of them had not arrived yet; they were probably in their parents' ticky tacky houses in suburbia. Good preservationists get GOOD things saved...bad preservationists try hard to save junk. In Jersey City, the City Hall is worth saving, the old Medical Center was worth saving (and they should raze the new one tomorrow) Loews and Stanley were worth saving...but so were the Pix and the State (now both gone.) The wonderful school on Palsade and Newark is breathtaking. But the Embankment...tear it down right after Wilzig Hospital; saving a couple bodegas in the Heights makes more preservationist sense. 
Posted on: 2009/5/4 19:15
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Home away from home
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Xerxes wrote:
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A "straw man argument" defined: Misrepresenting the position of another in order to discredit that position, though it may have only a seeming resemblance to the one being presented. Thus, by stating this "straw man" as a legit presentation of the other's view, it is easy to tear apart that view without addressing the actual view of the opponent. It is a classic trick, and predictable, boring, and unhelpful. Unfortunately Xerxes, you tried to do that in the quoted paragraph above when you say preservationists want to preserve "everything". And here: Quote:
And here: Quote:
And here: Quote:
...but nobody really wants to save "everything." Thus, you are misrepresenting the preservationist view. Preservationists know they must choose their battles, as money is tight and political will must be cultivated for particular purposes. Also, an arts group who wants to buy and convert a Bright Street firehouse (city property) for modern use is not equivalent to nor identical with a preservation society who wants to preserve the White Eagle Hall (currently church property) for it's architectural legacy. Sometimes their work overlaps. So: why do you believe preservationists want to save "everything"? No, really. If you do not address that question nobody will understand your position, and nor should they respect it. I am trying to understand the basis for your view, that some wily preservationists... i.e., not just people chatting, but people actually making efforts to preserve old architecture... want to preserve "everything". Further, why do you think these properties cannot be "saved" for a use you consider a productive, beneficial use. Are you looking for more housing stock? More population density? More parking?
Posted on: 2009/5/3 12:43
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Home away from home
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Ever seen pictures of the old Erie rail station there? Wouldn't it have been cool if someone had managed to save it and turn it into the new PATH station and 'Town Square', sort of like the Haymarket in Boston. At the time no one had a vision for the Newport area that extended beyond construction of a brand new fancy mall to act as a magnet for the district. I can think of a lot of things people regret having torn down, but for some reason, I can't think of anything that has been saved by preservationists only to be later considered a mistake.
Posted on: 2009/5/3 10:41
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Home away from home
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It's so funny when people who have no knowledge of the preservation community try to portray them and their positions.
The EPC is perhaps the best and most successful organization in the city. They are focused, willing to compromise (reasonably), and have actually taken steps such as identifying and securing funds for the project. This is a group that deserves everyone's full support. Regarding the need to compromise, it has already been done. There have been plenty of historic resources that have been destroyed in the name of development. The preservation community simply demands that those few remaining that have a proven constituency receive the protection that they deserve. No one can seriously say that this city preserves too much and gets in the way of development.
Posted on: 2009/5/3 10:30
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Home away from home
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"Blight" is in the eye of the beholder. Take Xerxes assessment for what it's worth: that is, he willingly lives in a Newport monstrosity. And if faux-preservationists had there way, Newport would still be a huge rubble strewn deserted railyard covered in diesel droppings echoing the bucolic days of Penn-Central and Lehigh Valley railroad ownership and looking like Dresden after the firebombing. People could stand amidst the refuse and imagine steam locotomtives filling the skies with beautiful spews of coal ash...and dream of the "GOOD OLD DAYS." Preservationism is a very valuable goal, but preservationists must be discriminating. If preservationist decide that EVERYTHING old is worth saving, then they are nothing better than people who won't clean up after themselves...like those brothers who filled their mansion stem to stern with old newspapers because they were too lazy to throw them out. "Junk is junk is junk"...Gertrude Stein!
Posted on: 2009/5/3 9:52
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Quite a regular
 
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![Click to see original Image in a new window](javascript:CaricaFoto("http://i39.tinypic.com/2n1i711.jpg"); "Click to see original Image in a new window") The High Line Length: 1.52 miles Total area: 6.7 acres Buildings travel through 2 City blocks crossed: 22 Total streets traversing: 25 Maximum width 88ft Minimum width: 30ft Height: 29ft above Materials: steel frame, reinforced concrete deck, gravel ballast, metal handrails. Design competition: December 2002 ![Click to see original Image in a new window](javascript:CaricaFoto("http://i40.tinypic.com/1fxlzl.jpg"); "Click to see original Image in a new window") Promenade Plantée Length: 2.81 miles Total area: 16 acres Buildings travel through2 City blocks crossed: 20 Total streets traversing: 21 Maximum width 100ft Minimum width 30ft Height: 30ft above Materials: brick structure with wood, metal and glass details. Design competition: 1988
Posted on: 2009/5/1 11:26
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My signature will be a funny quote and/or observation.
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Quite a regular
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"Blight" is in the eye of the beholder. Take Xerxes assessment for what it's worth: that is, he willingly lives in a Newport monstrosity.
Posted on: 2009/5/1 10:55
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Home away from home
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The "Embankment" aka Railroad Tracks is a hideous leftover waste of space from a bygone era. The sooner it is razed the better.
Saving EVERYTHING from the past is NOT saving history anymore than saving old kitty litter or rusty cans. As for beauty, if any homeowner had a weed filled back yard that looked like that he would face stiff fines. Views? I agree with the previous poster...the views are better from the street. There's a good reason that we don't see many parks that are 30 feet wide and 15 feet in the air separated every block with busy streets...I guess bridges will have to be built. Preservationist who want to save EVERYTHING give a bad name to those who want to save the most beautiful and historic sites. And that Embankment definitely falls into the category of "everything." Get rid of the BLIGHT!
Posted on: 2009/5/1 10:49
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Home away from home
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Bright Moment, love the new photo what happened at the hearing yesterday??
Posted on: 2009/4/30 21:59
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Home away from home
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HPC To Resume Hardship Hearing
Wed, Apr. 29, 6:30 pm City Hall Council Chambers 280 Grove Street The Jersey City Historic Preservation Commission will resume hearing applications, from six LLCs and Conrail, for hardship exemptions that would allow them to demolish the Harsimus Branch Embankment. The Commission previously denied applications for Certificates of Appropriateness for demolition of the Municipal Landmark. We cannot gauge how long these presentations will take or if public comment will be taken on this date or at a subsequent hearing. If you intend to testify against hardship exemptions, come prepared. Guidelines are on the Coalition's web site.
Posted on: 2009/4/29 12:24
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![Click to see original Image in a new window](javascript:CaricaFoto("http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o258/BrightMoment/logo-url-banner-padding-600x56-web-2-1-1.gif"); "Click to see original Image in a new window"){kind=logo}
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Home away from home
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Hyman now wants Embankment mansions
Tuesday, April 21, 2009 By AMY SARA CLARK JOURNAL STAFF WRITER The economy is in the tank. But Steve Hyman, owner of the Sixth Street Embankment, is betting there's still enough rich people around to plunk down $5 million for a mansion in Downtown Jersey City. Unable to come to terms with the city and environmentalists over plans for the elevated, unused railroad turnaround that runs along Sixth Street between Marin Boulevard and Brunswick Street, Hyman is now proposing to build 12 multimillion-dollar homes on the property. "The theory behind these houses is that even though the economy is in tough shape, there are still a lot of wealthy people out there, and you only need a few people to make this work," he said. To appease the city's Historic Preservation Commission, which barred Hyman from tearing down the Embankment's stone walls, Hyman says his new proposal preserves 96 percent of the walls. Even if the HPC were to approve Hyman's mansion plan, he wouldn't be able to begin building anytime soon due to a ruling in August 2007 by the federal Surface Transportation Board, which determined that Conrail never properly "abandoned" the site. Attorneys hired by the city believe the ruling could mean that Hyman no longer owns the land and the city has to be given the opportunity to buy the land for the $3 million it sold for in 2005. But Hyman has appealed the ruling. The Embankment Preservation Coalition wants to preserve the land as open space, while Mayor Jerramiah T. Healy wants a combination of open space and a Light Rail link. In the most recent round of negotiations, the city and the Embankment Preservation Coalition offered to let Hyman build a 490-unit high rise on most of the first block of the Embankment, but he would be required to leave room for the Light Rail and a "Rails-to-Trails" bike and hiking path, Hyman said. "If Mr. Hyman now believes that he needs to build only 12 luxury units to make enough profit, he clearly should put them in one signature building on the Embankment closest to the waterfront or on the at-grade parcels on the west end," Embankment Preservation Coalition representatives said in a statement. "This alternative would preserve the landmark Embankment, accommodate a park and Light Rail and have little to no adverse effect on surrounding historic districts," they added. Hyman is scheduled to go before the HPC on April 29 to again ask for permission to tear down the Embankment walls as part of his original plan to build two-family homes.
Posted on: 2009/4/21 5:09
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Home away from home
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Those are some great shots. Look, you can see Bed, Bath and Beyond from there. Oh, and the building that used to be a hospital and is now under construction (for the past umpteen months) to be condos. Hey, you can see roofs from there as well. There's the Doubletree Hotel, Newport Mall, the little league field across the street, Shoprite... the same stuff I can see from my window, front step or around the corner. Sweet. Quote: You have a better chance getting hit by a bullet in Jersey than being hit by a falling stone from the embankment! The odds of getting shot in Jersey are higher than most things, this being Jersey after all.
Posted on: 2009/4/16 4:50
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Home away from home
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Save the hysteria over falling stone chicken little! You have a better chance getting hit by a bullet in Jersey than being hit by a falling stone from the embankment! Give me a break!
Posted on: 2009/4/15 22:22
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Home away from home
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That thread is still here. http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewt ... p?topic_id=16984&forum=10
Posted on: 2009/4/15 20:07
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Home away from home
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Hi...
What happened to the thread about the falling stones that caused the JCFD to tape off a whole section of the corner of 6th and Erie. It was front page on the Jersey Journal on Tuesday. Seems that that conveniently disappeared. What about TRUTH do these folks who want to keep the embankment don't realize. And why were the posts removed? Webmaster? Please explain? The embankment needs to come down before someone is injured by falling stones. FACT. Thanks FG
Posted on: 2009/4/15 19:46
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Just can't stay away
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I'd LOVE to live in luxury up there. But I really think the views belong to all of us. Here's a photo set I took from atop the embankment in late November of 2007:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stc4blue ... 72157603270198814/detail/
Posted on: 2009/4/15 17:51
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Just can't stay away
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luxury housing is better than projects, at least.
Posted on: 2009/4/15 16:46
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Home away from home
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I somehow doubt you know what you are talking about. That aside, your comments regarding the Embankment are spot on.
Posted on: 2009/4/15 16:27
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Home away from home
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I think it's strong enough to hold either, but not until it's reenforced. The owner isn't going to pay for that if he just ends up having to give it back to the city. Although he runs a liability risk. I would sue if a big brick fell on me. Maybe then I could afford one of his proposed units. I don't mind this plan. I don't mind the park plan. Don't even mind the light rail plan. I just don't want high rises or low income housing.
Posted on: 2009/4/15 15:38
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Home away from home
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So what's the deal? The embankment is too weak and crumbling to hold a park but suddenly it's peachy enough to hold luxury condos and a pool? Please.
Posted on: 2009/4/15 15:30
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Home away from home
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I disagree, Grove/Manila is affordable housing all the way from Bay st to 6th st. NO MORE!!! Bring on the biggest bad luxury money can buy are far as I'm concerned just no more projects that will hurt property values. I believe these are the best plans I've seen, I never really liked the Light-Rail idea, I see the disrespectful teenage trash that take it from Bayonne to the mall, no thanks! NIMBY!! If it can't be an elevated park, I think I could actually live with this. Might even be better because a park will not doubt bring crime with it. What's so wrong with Luxury Housing? Never did understand that mentality, are you afraid of being priced out?
Posted on: 2009/4/15 14:59
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Just can't stay away
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I'm going to be a bad pupil and disagree with teacher - I hate the new plan, as I've hated all of the other ones. Remember, the alternative not low income housing (although that would be a better use than Hyman's proposal), but a park that EVERYONE can use, that respects the history of the embankment, the neighborhood and Jersey City in general. Our city's industrial past and railway center is part of what makes J.C. unique. It's a wonderful part of our heritage. Remember, there has been a ruling that Hyman never properly purchased the land is therefore not the rightful owner of the Embankment. Remember that Jersey City is woefully short public downtown green spaces. And yes, "hopefully" you'll take a dip in the pool, if your new neighbors deign to let you onto their private property. More luxury housing is the last thing needed in Jersey City.
Posted on: 2009/4/15 14:46
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Home away from home
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Terrific plan! Great private use, without congestion, highrises, and more low income housing.
Hopefully, the Mrs & I can go over for cocktails and a dip in that pool!
Posted on: 2009/4/15 12:34
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Home away from home
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This is the first proposal I actually like.
Posted on: 2009/4/15 12:18
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Home away from home
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![Click to see original Image in a new window](javascript:CaricaFoto("http://blog.nj.com/hudsoncountynow_impact/2009/04/large_Sixth-Street-Embankment-1.jpg"); "Click to see original Image in a new window") They forgot to add fences to keep their children from falling off the sides. 
Posted on: 2009/4/15 10:55
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Not too shy to talk
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Looks like there is a new "plan" from the developer. Apparently, all he wants to do is make a profit from the City on land that he does not own. I guess he has no case for his Hardship Application.
Great, go for, try to sell 12 $5 million dollar homes! http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... sal_for_sixth_street.html Facing a failing economy and stymied by a lack of progress on his proposal to put 600 units of housing, a park and a light rail line on top of the Sixth Street Embankment, developer Steve Hyman has come up with a new plan. The plan scraps the park and light rail and instead proposes putting 12 multi-million dollar houses on top of the historic six-block embankment stretching along Sixth Street, from Marin Boulevard to Brunswick Street. "The theory behind these houses is that even though the economy is in tough shape, there are still a lot of wealthy people out there, and you only need a few people to make this work," he said. He also said the new plan is more likely to be approved by the Historic Preservation Commission, since 96 percent of the wall would remain intact. "I got back to the basics and said, 'I'm in front of the HPC and (historic preservation) should be their only charge. If they can't deal with the fact that I need to remove (from the wall) 60 feet out of 1000 feet on each block to get an economic return, there's nothing that will satisfy them," he said. Courtesy of Dean Marchetto Architects A rendering of what the patio of one of the houses proposed for the top of the Sixth Street Embankment in Jersey City could look like. The openings in the walls would allow for garage and pedestrian entrances for the homes, Hyman said. He said he hopes to sell the homes for $5 million each. The fate of the embankment has been under debate since Hyman's wife, Victoria, bought the land for $3 million from Conrail in 2005 to build housing. The Embankment Preservation Coalition wants to preserve the land as open space. Mayor Jerramiah T. Healy wants a combination of open space and a light rail link. But Hyman said he has included those amenities in his previous proposals and has made no progress. "I tried to accommodate them in every plan and every scenario, but the basic request is to save the wall," he said. Courtesy of Dean Marchetto Architects PC A view of what the garage opening in the wall of Jersey City's Sixth Street Embankment would look like in developer Steve Hyman's new plan. Even if the HPC were to approve Hyman's proposal, he wouldn't be able to begin building anytime soon due to a ruling in August 2007 by the obscure federal Surface Transportation Board, which determined that Conrail never properly "abandoned" the site. Attorneys hired by the city believe the ruling could mean that Hyman no longer owns the land and the city has to be given the opportunity to buy the land for the $3 million it sold for in 2005. But Hyman has appealed the ruling. Hyman said if the city really wants the park and the light rail, it should condemn the land and give him fair market value for it, which he puts at around $20 million. City officials could not immediately be reached for comment. An Embankment Preservation Coalition official said the coalition needed time to consider Hyman's proposal before responding. Stay tuned.
Posted on: 2009/4/15 10:10
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Historic Preservation Commission Hardship Hearing Postponed Dear Friends of Embankment Preservation, Applicants for hardship exemptions that would allow them to demolish the Harsimus Branch Embankment have requested a postponement of the hearing scheduled for tonight, The Historic Preservation Officer will open and close the meeting tonight but otherwise no testimony will be taken, and the hearing will be carried to the regular Commission meeting on April 20. It is expected that, on April 20, the hardship exemptions will be further carried to a hearing at a date, time, and place to be specified. We will let you know these arrangements as soon as we know them. We are sorry for this late notice. We just heard about the re-scheduling ourselves and are rushing to send this out to you. We know you are busy, and hope this message reaches you in time. Sincerely, Embankment Preservation Coalition Board * We do not share your contact information. If you would like to change your email preference or be removed safely from our list, please use the Update or Unsubscribe feature below Quote:
Posted on: 2009/4/14 18:13
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