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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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anyone outside the leftist orthodox religion is either sexually repressed, has a small penis, ...
woah... - easy, tiger - where's that coming from?

Posted on: 2008/7/21 14:40
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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ianmac47 wrote:
There is a good reason that despite the EU having 20 million or so more people than the US, they had only 1,200 homicides to the US's 10,000. Or Maybe we're just generally more barbaric.


+1

Posted on: 2008/7/21 14:36
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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This entire discussion thread is absolutely absurd.

If its easier for YOU to get a handgun, its also easier for the little pack of kids to get armed with a handgun. A gun might seem a great defense against a pack of 10 kids, but only until the 10 of them whip out their own guns and start shooting back at you. There is a good reason that despite the EU having 20 million or so more people than the US, they had only 1,200 homicides to the US's 10,000. Or Maybe we're just generally more barbaric.

And as to installing cameras in the park, those things are all for show since they don't decrease crime, and they didn't decrease crime a decade earlier either. . Not to mention that cameras lead to people spying into your homes. But maybe you folks living around the park want to be the next amateur porn star.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 14:18
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Reading this post freaked me out and I ordered Mace (pepper spray) for my keychain. Obviously mace can't defend me against a gun but maybe it's something to consider before buying firearms because in a situation like this I would rather pepper spray a kid's eyes than start firing rounds in VVP

I use to carry mace in college when walking home at night - I would carry it in my hand ready to spray someone haha. But seriously it only looks like I had my keys in my hand and it made me feel a lot safer.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 14:11
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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In instances like this, if the teens were shot and kille I would say they got what they deserved. I'm not in favor of vigilatnism, but defense is another issue.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 13:48
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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parkman wrote:
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Jeebus wrote:
I didn't want to raise the obvious, so thank you for doing so. Rather than allow properly vetted law abiding citizens their human right to effective self defense our politicians would rather cater to the ignorance of much of the populace.

Said ignorance largely springs from a utopian misunderstanding of human nature. Most of this comes down to an overweening faith in government authority and that being law abiding oneself means that laws prohibiting firearms ownership will eliminate firearms; rather than make criminality safer.

If this poor guy had been packing the most likely outcome would have been that the mob would have fled and he would have got home safely.

Quote:

NewHeights wrote:
If the police arrived in 5-7 minutes they might have caught these jokers but it wouldnt have stopped the beating.

NJ needs to wake up and join the other 40 or so states to allow law biding citizens the right to carry.

The police cannot protect every citizen. No police dept in the world can.

I usually don’t engage in a discourse on the “right to bear arms”, but to posit that carrying a weapon in an urban setting is the correct choice over holding our paid law enforcers libel and responsible for our collective safety, is irresponsible and retrogressive.

Although it may seem like we are sometimes living in the Wild West, the perceived “right to blow someone’s head off” because you are a “law abiding citizen” does not, in my opinion, justify the override a set of moral parameters that set us apart from other animals.

The fantasy of being able to act out a Charles Bronson “Death Wish” movie, in reality, would make most “law abiding citizens” and moral people having to deal with immeasurable guilt for the rest of their lives.

I think the resolution lies with a strong commitment from a community that understands the value of strength in numbers and is willing to join together and not just continually complain about its predicament, but actively and forcefully engages the government that is set up to protect them.

Discourse over,

parkman


Gee, Parkman. Thanks for your paternalistic concern over my emotional well being, but really, you don't get to make that decision for anyone other than yourself.

Let's see:

Be beaten, possibly to death, by some punk, or see my wife beaten to death, or raped, by some punk. OR:

Live with the fact that I shot said punk, and none of the prior happened. Cry myself to sleep every night riddled with misplaced guilt.

Pretty simple. I would always, always be sorry that I was forced to hurt someone, but I would never regret it. I would regret I was put in that position.

The comical "right to blow someone's head off" is simply childish. If I could have a Star Trek style phaser that knocked someone out, reliably, I'd be carrying it. Only a child, or, in this case, someone rabidly against firearms, would suggest that "blowing people's heads off" is the goal of carrying a firearm.

And what is this "fantasy" crap? You think it's someone's FANTASY? What is it with some that everything anyone outside the leftist orthodox religion is either sexually repressed, has a small penis, or has some sort of childlike bloodlust/cowboy thing going?

Did it ever occur to you that there are some real, live adults out there who just don't view the world the way you do, for perfectly valid reasons?

You think the only thing that separates us from animals is a non-violent response to violence? That attitude only ensures that the most animalistic among us will thrive, grow, & dominate. What separates us from animals is that might does not make right.

Government does what it can to protect the innocent from the savage, whether it's from a mugger or a fraudster. In the case of fraud, society gets her say after the fact. In the case of violence, society may get her say, but it is too late for whichever person on whose behalf she would speak. That's why the right to self defense has NEVER been questioned. Even today, the right to defense is only argued against by a few total wing nuts. What is argued is the means to which one is entitled.

The real problem? Every day I read in the JJ "Stevie Jones was arrested for shooting a woman in the face. He has an extensive criminal record, including time for aggravated assault & robbery, for which he served 10 months in 2005, burglary & rape, for which he was sentenced to 2 years from 2006 to March 2008, and was currently out on $10,000 bail for setting his girlfriend's face on fire with a can of hairspray.

I have played with the idea of tracking prosecutorial & judicial decisions regarding some of these lowlives & throwing it on a website, but I suck at the web. I would like, however, for the public to KNOW if there is one or two judges, or prosecutors, who are consistantly turning savages back out on the streets.

Statistically, it is a very, very small fraction of even OFFENDERS who commit a massively disproportionate number of crimes, nevermind their overall proportion in the populace at large. I don't want to hear "we don't have the resources to prosecute properly" or any garbage like that. One thing I'd HAPPILY would pay taxes for, and one thing that is a legitimate function of government, is properly trying those charged with crimes and locking them up. We don't have enough room in prisons? Fire a few Deputy Mayors, build some new prisons, and hire some more prosecutors.

GWB

Posted on: 2008/7/21 13:46
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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paulywalnuts wrote:
if that guy was an off duty cop, imagine the jail time for felony assault.


If it was an off duty cop, chances are the cop would have had his sidearm. And the libs here would be talking about excessive force by the police. Either way, just another topic for the sewing circle.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 13:34
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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have they caught the teens?

Posted on: 2008/7/21 13:27
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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I’ve been asking the city to install cameras for years and keep being told the monies are not available.
Yeah $104K of those tax abatement dollars went instead to Kabili T. to march in a few parades (and to turn out the black vote when needed) and $46K went to the lawyer handling Healy's Bradley Beach incident to be something called (almost comically) a 'part-time legislative research officer'.

NPR (and that magazine) is right, the city *is* a joke. But it's only 'endearing' if you don't have to live here.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 12:38
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Who do you call or write to express outrage that it took anywhere from 25-32 minutes for police to arrive after a serious crime occurred? Weren't there a couple violent muggings on York St last year around this time that led to meetings with city types - has anything changed at all?

That park is probably the nicest public space downtown JC has and it cannot be allowed to turn into the wild west for a bunch of lowlifes.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 11:31
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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THese teens should be sent away for a good 25 years. Treat them as adults.ENUFF of the lenient juvenile reform system!

Also, isn't there a curfew in JC

Posted on: 2008/7/21 5:39
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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NewHeights wrote:
Parkman

If I were attacked and my life were in jepoardy, I wouldnt have any guilt if I shot some low life dirtbags in self defense.

In a sense I guess your right though, if you are beaten into a coma you dont really have to worry about guilt.

Also if you think the governement is designed to protect you and save you life in these types of situations, you might be in for a rude awakening. Attacks like this are usually over in 2-3 minutes at the most. Unless you have police on every street corner the police cannot protect us.

Not to mention this police force of under 1000 offiicers city wide would be completely outmanned if we were to face a riot type situation. You would be on your own for atleast 5 days while corzine decided (from his beachouse) to activate the national guard.

Not that I’ve haven’t had the fantasy of being able to “eliminate” the individuals or groups that have no respect for life, others property, or common decently… I can’t justify the liability and possible “oops" factor of vigilante justice. One should, in my opinion, strive for a set of laws and enforcement that eliminate the option of anarchy and its negative consequences.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 3:35
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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If they started shooting, bystanders in the park and people in nearby apartments could have been caught in the crossfire, but if everyone would put a camera in their window facing the street, we could track their movements through a network of neighborhood watch cameras, without needing government money and observation.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 3:32
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Parkman

If I were attacked and my life were in jepoardy, I wouldnt have any guilt if I shot some low life dirtbags in self defense.

In a sense I guess your right though, if you are beaten into a coma you dont really have to worry about guilt.

Also if you think the governement is designed to protect you and save you life in these types of situations, you might be in for a rude awakening. Attacks like this are usually over in 2-3 minutes at the most. Unless you have police on every street corner the police cannot protect us.

Not to mention this police force of under 1000 offiicers city wide would be completely outmanned if we were to face a riot type situation. You would be on your own for atleast 5 days while corzine decided (from his beachouse) to activate the national guard.


Posted on: 2008/7/21 3:10
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Jeebus wrote:
I didn't want to raise the obvious, so thank you for doing so. Rather than allow properly vetted law abiding citizens their human right to effective self defense our politicians would rather cater to the ignorance of much of the populace.

Said ignorance largely springs from a utopian misunderstanding of human nature. Most of this comes down to an overweening faith in government authority and that being law abiding oneself means that laws prohibiting firearms ownership will eliminate firearms; rather than make criminality safer.

If this poor guy had been packing the most likely outcome would have been that the mob would have fled and he would have got home safely.

Quote:

NewHeights wrote:
If the police arrived in 5-7 minutes they might have caught these jokers but it wouldnt have stopped the beating.

NJ needs to wake up and join the other 40 or so states to allow law biding citizens the right to carry.

The police cannot protect every citizen. No police dept in the world can.

I usually don’t engage in a discourse on the “right to bear arms”, but to posit that carrying a weapon in an urban setting is the correct choice over holding our paid law enforcers libel and responsible for our collective safety, is irresponsible and retrogressive.

Although it may seem like we are sometimes living in the Wild West, the perceived “right to blow someone’s head off” because you are a “law abiding citizen” does not, in my opinion, justify the override a set of moral parameters that set us apart from other animals.

The fantasy of being able to act out a Charles Bronson “Death Wish” movie, in reality, would make most “law abiding citizens” and moral people having to deal with immeasurable guilt for the rest of their lives.

I think the resolution lies with a strong commitment from a community that understands the value of strength in numbers and is willing to join together and not just continually complain about its predicament, but actively and forcefully engages the government that is set up to protect them.

Discourse over,

parkman

Posted on: 2008/7/21 3:02
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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32 minutes for police to arrive. that is EGREGIOUS.

i pity whoever did this because karma will get them. its always does. its only a matter of time before they pick a fight with the wrong person or in the wrong place at the wrong time. if that guy was an off duty cop, imagine the jail time for felony assault. or if the victim dies from internal injuries, have fun serving time for voluntary manslaughter. suddenly the kids who thought they were tough guys aren't so tough anymore.....

Posted on: 2008/7/21 2:41
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Police headquarters is only 4 blocks away, and the medical center is 3... the cops and paramedics could have walked to Brownstone and had some pancakes first and still gotten there in less than 32 minutes.

I'm really hoping the teens that did it are not from this area, teens around here don't need their reputation made even worse for them. As a teen who walks home around that time a few nights a week, this news is terrifying. I really wish there was something that could be done to make our entire neighborhood, especially the park, a lot safer.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 2:07
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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I didn't want to raise the obvious, so thank you for doing so. Rather than allow properly vetted law abiding citizens their human right to effective self defense our politicians would rather cater to the ignorance of much of the populace.

Said ignorance largely springs from a utopian misunderstanding of human nature. Most of this comes down to an overweening faith in government authority and that being law abiding oneself means that laws prohibiting firearms ownership will eliminate firearms; rather than make criminality safer.

If this poor guy had been packing the most likely outcome would have been that the mob would have fled and he would have got home safely.

Quote:

NewHeights wrote:
If the police arrived in 5-7 minutes they might have caught these jokers but it wouldnt have stopped the beating.

NJ needs to wake up and join the other 40 or so states to allow law biding citizens the right to carry.

The police cannot protect every citizen. No police dept in the world can.


Posted on: 2008/7/21 1:33
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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lets keep it on a brighter note, more about the couple bumpin uglies in the park

Posted on: 2008/7/21 1:28
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Why not?

Granted, I am considering York Street projects part of VVP area, since a lot of the kids I meet in the park are from there. I hate to think that kids like those that committed this horrific beating live four blocks from me, so I'd love to be wrong.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 1:24
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Eleanor_A wrote:
There a lot of great teen kids in this community and this just tarnishes the reputation of them.


I really dont think those kids are from vvp.

Posted on: 2008/7/21 1:14
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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On a much different and much lighter note....

I almost forgot, but

I did see two people fu*king on the gazebo Th. night about Midnight...lol...

I paid them no mind...But they did rear up when I walked by...lol

Ahhhh, yes, warm Summer nights...lol

To somewhat borrow a line from our recently departed friend G. Carlin:

I would rather see two people making love in our park, then two people (or any number) fighting in the park, anyday!!



Peas....

Posted on: 2008/7/21 1:10
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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By the by...With regards the camera monitoring idea...Is it possible we as a community could at least chip in and pick up the cost of the system...With many park residents chipping in, it would almost literally be pennies each...I know the monitoring would have to be city run; but...

Just an idea...

P.S.--Oh yeah, what about the young women who has also assumed residency in the NE corner of the park...She has luggage, is well dressed, and keeps very much to herself...She certainly isn't bothering anyone, and I have had no probs with her...But I have noticed her there every night for the past few weeks...

L8R

Peas....

Posted on: 2008/7/21 0:46
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Holy Shite!! I am very saddened to hear about this...

I am trying to think what I was doing Monday night, as I live right on the park and my windows overlook the park...I am a nightowl and always up at that hour...I am surprised I did not hear/see anything...Maybe I was out...

Anyway, that is besides the point...

Yes, Please thank the brave young men who came to this chap's rescue...

I was the victim of an assault three years ago, right on the park perimeter...It was a 'gay-bashing'; eventhough I am not gay...(not that there's anything wrong with that...

It was three young males, who hit me with bricks...I was able to slip away from them pretty quick, and run up the steps of one of the brownstones and ring the bells, and pretend to be talking with someone...This scared them away, and they started running up York...I chased after them (not to mess with them, I ain't no fool, 3-1, I can defend myself, but that ratio is not a winning one...lol), to keep them in my sight while I called 911....I got connected and was telling them where I was, and the operator couldn't understand me...Finally, we realized they had connected me to 911 in Brooklyn!!?? WTF!!

They finally connected me to the proper 911, but by then I had lost sight of them...I walked myself to the hospital.

Thankfully it wasn't too bad, just a split skull, which they stapled back together for me...

JCPD was nice enough, and relatively helpful in taking my statement at the hospital, etc...Then drove me around to the 'scene' after I was released and all...But that was basically the extent of their service...

I wasn't really feeling statisfied afterwards, and decided to take a look up York to see if they had dropped their weapons, or were stil lingering, etc...Well, lo and behold, within 5min. I had found the bricks and the fire extinguisher one of them was holding (oh yeah, did I forget to mention that one...Weird weapon)...So, I called JCPD back and got them to come back and retrieve the weapons to dust for prints...

Alas, nothing came of it (who even knows if they did run it for prints)...But the whole incident really shook me up for quite a while...

I had been living here for quite a few years prior to this incident, and have always felt safe here...and Still do...But it really put me on edge for quite a while...I started carrying my blade with me, and was very hyper jumpy walking around at night...I hated the way it made me feel...

Thankfully that has long past now...But I am sure the young man will have some issues to work out for a bit...If anyone actually has a way to get in touch with him; kindly let me know, if you think it appropriate...Perhaps I can lend some support...

Anyway...Thanks for reading this long post...lol

I will indeed be a bit more vigilant then usual...

Cheers!!

Peas....

Posted on: 2008/7/21 0:43
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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jennymayla wrote:
How much do the cameras cost? Is it something the community could potentially cover?

Also, there is no reason to doubt that they are from this area. The kids are in the park all the time.

Last but not least, was there no one else in the park to witness this? What about the guy with the dark suit who seems to be living in the park? I see him there morning noon and night. Maybe he saw something.

Sorry to be all over the place with this post -- it just makes me so angry and disappointed and freaked out.
I don’t know the exact cost of each camera, but I do know that Kearny received sufficient funds from Homeland Security to purchase a wireless camera system that covers all of their public parks. Even if our community would cover the cost of the system, the city would have to agree to monitor it or additional funds would be necessary to cover that cost.

My neighbor’s son and his friend were the ones that got the gang to stop beating the victim and they also called the police once they saw what was happening. Why it took the police 25 minutes to show up has not been explained.

I was there when the ambulance finally arrived, 17 minutes after the call and saw the victim able to walk to the vehicle with help from the paramedics. Two police cars finally showed up 10 minutes later. Had they been able to respond immediately, they would have caught a least some of these hoodlums.

As far as our new park resident (“The Man in The Black Suit”) is concerned, he is well dressed and well spoken but I have to keep asking him to periodically move to a new spot on the lawn because he is leaving an imprint similar to a police outline everywhere he sleeps. His residency is now three weeks and counting but other than being a threat to the grass he seems harmless and rather sad.


Thanks for the update. Please thank your neighbor's son and friends for their effort. Hopefully more details from the police will be forthcoming.

Agree that The Man In The Black Suit is mostly harmless, although lately he has taken to random acts of hand motions and gibberish. Hope he's ok.

Posted on: 2008/7/20 22:10
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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jennymayla wrote:
How much do the cameras cost? Is it something the community could potentially cover?

Also, there is no reason to doubt that they are from this area. The kids are in the park all the time.

Last but not least, was there no one else in the park to witness this? What about the guy with the dark suit who seems to be living in the park? I see him there morning noon and night. Maybe he saw something.

Sorry to be all over the place with this post -- it just makes me so angry and disappointed and freaked out.
I don’t know the exact cost of each camera, but I do know that Kearny received sufficient funds from Homeland Security to purchase a wireless camera system that covers all of their public parks. Even if our community would cover the cost of the system, the city would have to agree to monitor it or additional funds would be necessary to cover that cost.

My neighbor’s son and his friend were the ones that got the gang to stop beating the victim and they also called the police once they saw what was happening. Why it took the police 25 minutes to show up has not been explained.

I was there when the ambulance finally arrived, 17 minutes after the call and saw the victim able to walk to the vehicle with help from the paramedics. Two police cars finally showed up 10 minutes later. Had they been able to respond immediately, they would have caught a least some of these hoodlums.

As far as our new park resident (“The Man in The Black Suit”) is concerned, he is well dressed and well spoken but I have to keep asking him to periodically move to a new spot on the lawn because he is leaving an imprint similar to a police outline everywhere he sleeps. His residency is now three weeks and counting but other than being a threat to the grass he seems harmless and rather sad.

Posted on: 2008/7/20 21:48
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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How much do the cameras cost? Is it something the community could potentially cover?

Also, there is no reason to doubt that they are from this area. The kids are in the park all the time.

Last but not least, was there no one else in the park to witness this? What about the guy with the dark suit who seems to be living in the park? I see him there morning noon and night. Maybe he saw something.

Sorry to be all over the place with this post -- it just makes me so angry and disappointed and freaked out.

Posted on: 2008/7/20 18:11
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Does anyone know the condition of the victim?

Posted on: 2008/7/20 17:31
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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Quote:
The police cannot protect every citizen. No police dept in the world can.


Especially in a city where all the cops have two jobs and only work the OTHER one.

And Wilzig Hospital is just a cruel joke to pass city money into a developers hands.


Does anyone suspect a gay bashing here?

Posted on: 2008/7/20 17:20
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Re: Assault in Van Vorst Park tonight
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If the police arrived in 5-7 minutes they might have caught these jokers but it wouldnt have stopped the beating.

NJ needs to wake up and join the other 40 or so states to allow law biding citizens the right to carry.

The police cannot protect every citizen. No police dept in the world can.


Posted on: 2008/7/20 16:10
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