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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Canco is overpriced.

What is the biz model? views of the pulaski skyway when views of NYC can be had in much of jc? give me a break.

at best, it's a 15-minute walk to jsq, if you haul a. and shuttles are no fun.

Canco will fail.

Posted on: 2008/6/27 17:22
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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I'm curating an art show at Canco, opening on October 3rd! I hope all of this controversy will at least get more people our for the Pro Arts Studio tour.

Posted on: 2008/6/27 7:25
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Quote:
the council was going to vote in favor of the abatement one way or another

why just accept that, though? ...we need a new council...


Quote:
getting something out of the deal...

the 'something' we got out of the deal (the $100K 'job fund' or whatever they decided to call it this time) will just be used as a tool to perpetuate things

Posted on: 2008/6/25 13:44
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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dont get me wrong, i am against the city giving tax abatements to developers who cant sell units as well. but it seems (to me at least) that the council was going to vote in favor of the abatement one way or another, so getting something out of the deal (which admittedly wasn't a whole lot) is better than just giving abatements away for the hell of it.

Posted on: 2008/6/25 13:36
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Just checked out the website for Canco Lofts. Not a fan. Ugly kitchens, small closets, bad area, etc. I think that's more of an issue than the tax abatement. Not to mention the current housing market.

Posted on: 2008/6/25 13:16
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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I don't get it.

let me help you out.



Quote:
Fulop is mad that the city wanted the developer to give something up for the tax break? Does he propose simply throwing more free money at the developer so they can sell their units faster?

Fulop voted against sweetening the agreed-upon abatement, as this sets the precedent of the city assuming risk for the developer. That's not how capitalism is supposed to work. Think that one over for a minute, regulator - and imagine what the developer 's reaction would be if, conversely, market conditions improved, and it was the city coming at the developer looking to shift the abatement deal in the other direction to participate in the unexpected profits. How do you think that conversation would go?




Quote:
I for one am glad that Gaughan was able to get that donation. It may not help me directly...

That one you got right. In the JC council's hands, this job creation fund will be used as a get-the-votes-out slush fund for the Hudson County democratic machine this November. That's not hyperbole; that's how it works here. JCLaw explained it pretty well how this money will be used: Quote:
If you are looking for the crooked use of payoffs, the place to find them is in the small to mid-sized government contract vendors. Most work performed by the municipality is performed by 3rd party contractors. Those contractors donate to campaigns and help out with manpower on election day. Politicians squabble over which of their supporters will get municipal and county work contracts - paid with your dollars, not necessarily to the real lowest bidder. They squabble just like they do over which of their relatives and ward heelers ('young people who worked so hard on their campaign') will get cushy no-show government jobs.



But the bigger issue is, 'donations' to the city should not come into play when the council votes on any issue - or hey, maybe they could draw up a menu - $100K for a 5% abatement shift, $50K for a zoning variance, etc etc...

Posted on: 2008/6/25 12:28
"Someday a book will be written on how this city can be broke in the midst of all this development." ---Brewster
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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From today's JJ:

Quote:
Coalco 'shake down' gets the job done
Wednesday, June 25, 2008
By KEN THORBOURNE
JOURNAL STAFF WRITER

Two weeks ago, developers of the old American Can factory on Dey Street in Jersey City came to the City Council, hat in hand, asking for a better tax abatement deal than the one they signed two years ago to help spur condo sales at the renovated building.

Council members were open to giving the project - in the shadow of the Pulaski Skyway and next to the roadway leading to the Holland Tunnel - a better tax break.

But in return for the help, Heights Councilman Bill Gaughan asked the developer, New York-based Coalco, to donate $150,000 to help run a recently started construction apprentice program in the city.

In the midst of a back and forth at a council caucus, Downtown Councilman Steve Fulop branded Gaughan's suggestion a "shake down."

"That's a bad word to use," Gaughan exploded, as he wagged his finger at Fulop. "Don't use 'shake down.' I resent his comment."

Whatever you want to call it, it worked.

On Monday night, Coalco representatives offered to donate $100,000 to the city's apprentice program.

"I think it's a victory for Jersey City residents who are going to be in the program and it's a victory for Coalco, because we certainly want them to sell their 500-plus units," Gaughan said. "I was upset at my colleague Steve Fulop for calling me a 'shake down' artist," he added.

Fulop didn't back away from the characterization yesterday.

"City tax abatements, granted or not granted, should stand on their own merit, not who you pay off," Fulop said. "It is just bad business policy to shake down developers, no matter how good the cause."

According to the terms of the new abatement deal, rather than paying 16 percent of revenue in lieu of conventional property taxes over the next 30 years, owners would pay 10 percent for the first 10 years, 12 percent for the next 10 and 14 percent for the final 10 years.

The new agreement is up for final adoption at tonight's council meeting at 6 at Middle School 4, 107 Bright St.


I don't get it.. Fulop is mad that the city wanted the developer to give something up for the tax break? Does he propose simply throwing more free money at the developer so they can sell their units faster? I for one am glad that Gaughan was able to get that donation. It may not help me directly but it'll hopefully help people in JC who need it more

Posted on: 2008/6/25 12:02
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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I'm assuming that you are replying to my post. You seem to be claiming that a developer entered into a deal with the city that meant they were paying more than the normal tax rates in their PILOT and that this disadvantaged them so they want out.

The reason that I see a developer entering into a PILOT with JC that involved paying more than current tax rates is to insure that they (or the condo owners) won't be subject to uncontrollable tax increases in the future. That is essentially a form of insurance and the notion that a developer should get both lower current tax rates and a guarantee of minimal (or no) tax increases runs counter to the normal expectation that one pays for insurance.

Finally, if JC got the better of a developer I see no reason that the city should go back on their freely negotiated contract to benefit the developer at the expense of the taxpayers.

Quote:

FletchFletcher wrote:
Because the city's so called tax abatement is actually higher than if the building didn't have an abatement at all. If they want the developers to pay for the abatement or PILOT program, there should be some advantage for the home owner.

Do a little research please!!!! Bunch of freakin morons on this site.

Posted on: 2008/6/16 3:06
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Quote:

misterdude wrote:
Quote:
Wibbit wrote:
Why is everyone saying the place is far from the PATH?


Absolutely right. It's not more than 8 blocks to JSQ.


Its a little more than half a mile, based on Gmap Pedometer. By comparison, that's basically the same distance to McGinley Square.

Of course, the walk from CANCO is uphill. Both Ways. And its snowing.

Posted on: 2008/6/13 17:03
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Quote:
Wibbit wrote:
Why is everyone saying the place is far from the PATH?


Absolutely right. It's not more than 8 blocks to JSQ.

Posted on: 2008/6/13 16:57
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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300k for a 1BR is not too bad for Canco. Unfortunately, I don't think that price point exists anymore. That was probably an early discount or some of the lower floor units. Right now, 350k seems to be the starting point for 1BR there.

Posted on: 2008/6/13 16:48
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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1) The problem of lowering the price is the developer will have a big riot on their hands from the people who already bought. Especially (from my understanding) all the units are still only in contract and not delivered yet. Unless the developer is willing to go back and pay the difference to the owners of for all those 50+ units already sold.

Lowering the price of a new construction is absolutely the last resort for the developers. If i were them i would just convert to rentals until the market picks up again in a few years.

2) Why is everyone saying the place is far from the PATH? I walked from st johns condo(saint pauls ave@jfk) to path every day when lived there, it's a short walk. And this is even closer, am i missing something?

3) Price is subjective, but based on current market in JC, 300k for a luxury 1br condo close to path is actually reasonable. Those condos by grove street is asking 400k+ for a smaller 1br with higher taxes. I personally would still not buy in this market yet though. I think we have at least another 6 months to go as the wallstreet layoffs are just hitting the RE now in the nyc/jc waterfront area.

4) Developer asking the city to change their already signed contract is a complete joke. The city council should not do it, no company in the world will. If the RE were booming now, will the developer agree to let the city change their contract to increase the tax? i dont think so.

All in all, i think canco is a good place if you plan to live there for 5-10 years and ride out the RE bust. Nice building, easy transportation, in an area with a lot of upside potential in the coming years.

Posted on: 2008/6/13 15:58
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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hey maybe after the developers get their sweeter renegotiated abatement deal, the people who've already bought at canco at the higher original prices can renegotiate a new lower purchase price with the developer - yeah that's it...

maybe they can hold those negotiations at the same time, even!

Posted on: 2008/6/13 14:10
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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regulator wrote:
to the poster raving about the value of the canco... you DO realize that there are other condos in the area, some with NYC views, with 2 bedrooms, for less than the price of the canco 1br... right? and they all have pools, and doormen, and gyms. yes the canco might be great, but comparing apples to apples, you can get much better deals in the area.


Location, location, location. Canco doesn't have it and given the crappy real estate market, the developer probably needs to re-adjust their prices accordingly. I wonder if recent buyers there have had a decent range in negotiating prices.

Posted on: 2008/6/13 14:04
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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The question is "Whether the city should essentially become a guarantor of any developer's profitability by renegotiating an already agreed upon abatement?"



thank you.

Posted on: 2008/6/13 13:21
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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[/quote]

I'm reminded of my favorite line from a review of the last Star Wars movie:


"A f%#@ing break give me."[/quote]

haa haa haa

Posted on: 2008/6/13 13:14
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Quote:

FletchFletcher wrote:
Because the city's so called tax abatement is actually higher than if the building didn't have an abatement at all. If they want the developers to pay for the abatement or PILOT program, there should be some advantage for the home owner.

Do a little research please!!!! Bunch of freakin morons on this site.


Really? What would your taxes be without an abatement, at new construction residential property tax rates on your unit?

Since you've done your research and all...

Posted on: 2008/6/13 3:55
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Because the city's so called tax abatement is actually higher than if the building didn't have an abatement at all. If they want the developers to pay for the abatement or PILOT program, there should be some advantage for the home owner.

Do a little research please!!!! Bunch of freakin morons on this site.

Posted on: 2008/6/13 3:49
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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My cynical suspicion is that if things had gone better than expected Coalco would not be coming back to the city and cutting them in on the profits. Given this, why should the JC government help them sell units (above and beyond the existing deal) except giving them the advice that they lower their prices. Perhaps there is a reason that JC would benefit (greater tax revenues?) but Coalco doesn't mention it...

Quote:

GrovePath wrote:
With loft sales stalled, Coalco seeks better deal

Wednesday, June 11, 2008
By KEN THORBOURNE
JOURNAL STAFF WRITER
[snip]

Facing a slumping real estate market and the reality of attracting buyers to an off-the-waterfront location that's not close to a PATH stop, Coalco developers now say they need a bigger break.

"We know you are not obligated the change the terms of the abatement," James McCann, Coalco's attorney, told council members at their caucus Monday. "The problem is they can't sell units."
[snip]

Posted on: 2008/6/13 2:43
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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to the poster raving about the value of the canco... you DO realize that there are other condos in the area, some with NYC views, with 2 bedrooms, for less than the price of the canco 1br... right? and they all have pools, and doormen, and gyms. yes the canco might be great, but comparing apples to apples, you can get much better deals in the area.

Posted on: 2008/6/13 0:15
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Back to the core of the thread.

The issue has nothing to do really with hiring JC construction workers (which should be an automatic conditionality for any abatement, if one should ever be granted in the first instance).

The question is "Whether the city should essentially become a guarantor of any developer's profitability by renegotiating an already agreed upon abatement?"

The answer to that question should be an automatic "No" -- and especially at this phase of the project when it's essentially a post-construction exercise.

Although Councilman Fulop is correct to challenge a paulty "pay-to-play" quid pro quo of $150K in return for a renegotiated abatement, it's still not a shakedown. It's more accurately characterized as a "sell-out," for which the correct answer should be "NO RENEGOTIATION."

It's also sad to say that the Councilman's pay-to-play ballot initiative (although well intentioned) will not ban this most pernicious type of pay-to-play variant. This is where pay-to-play is most visible, and this is the type of practice which JC residents should be most outraged about, as it hits everyone in the wallet.

All the best.

Geoff

Posted on: 2008/6/12 22:38
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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"The world needs ditch diggers( and renters) too !"

Posted on: 2008/6/12 18:31
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Quote:

FletchFletcher wrote:
First of all, a 10 minute walk is hardly far from the Path. Secondly, I am purchasing at Canco because it is one of the most amazing buildings in Jersey City!

If you havn't been there, you really should not be commenting on this board. The building is very cool!

And I WANT ALL THE AMENITIES!!! Sorry, I dont want to live in a crappy walk up and I can afford more than 300K. Once again its not the pricing so much but the fact that you simply can't afford anything.

I'll have my doorman, gym, shuttle, and everything else that comes along with it.

Good luck looking for a shitty 1 bedroom for less than 300K or just keep renting buddy.


Wow, with classy neighbors like yourself, I'm sure CanCo will be a delightful place to live...


Posted on: 2008/6/12 15:23
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Oh! I forgot. Now that I will be paying .9% for taxes, I will be enjoying one of the lowest tax rates in Jersey City.



DONT HATE THE PLAYER! HATE THE GAME.

Posted on: 2008/6/12 15:07
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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First of all, a 10 minute walk is hardly far from the Path. Secondly, I am purchasing at Canco because it is one of the most amazing buildings in Jersey City!

If you havn't been there, you really should not be commenting on this board. The building is very cool!

And I WANT ALL THE AMENITIES!!! Sorry, I dont want to live in a crappy walk up and I can afford more than 300K. Once again its not the pricing so much but the fact that you simply can't afford anything.

I'll have my doorman, gym, shuttle, and everything else that comes along with it.

Good luck looking for a shitty 1 bedroom for less than 300K or just keep renting buddy.

Posted on: 2008/6/12 15:06
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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We looked at Canco. seems like great plan. but it is WAY overpriced. thye are somehwat far from the Path and they have ammneities that no one rwally needs. If they lowered prices, they would sell. but that means the owner would get less $$$. He would ratnjer the city take the hit.

Instead of $350,000 for a nice 1 bdrm w/parkng..how about $300??? What about the people that are supposed to move in??? They are screwed.

Posted on: 2008/6/11 23:26
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Quote:
The developer erred in the original negotiation...

The reduction translates directly into lower payments for the prospective buyers...


I'm reminded of my favorite line from a review of the last Star Wars movie:


"A f%#@ing break give me."

Posted on: 2008/6/11 21:42
"Someday a book will be written on how this city can be broke in the midst of all this development." ---Brewster
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Quote:

heights wrote:
Quote:

G_Elkind wrote:
The abatement process should not be used to insure or guarantee the profitability of any developer's project.

It's just plain wrong to do this off the backs of the residential taxpayer.


While promises to hire Jersey City construction workers should always be a condition for the grant of any abatement, it's a grossly insufficient trade off to justify revisiting the already agreed upon abatement. In this context, it's not a "shakedown," but more accurately, it's a cheap "give away" that the developer might willingly pay -- as the value of any renegotiated abatement is worth millions more to them. In essence, it's another variant form of pay-to-play.

All the best.

Geoff

Do the tax payers really care if the job is being done by locals. It's union so they get the last say in the matter. How about local developers. I believe the residents get a tax break as well when property taxes are being paid. Also when seeking a new home porential owners can seek a tax abatement.


The developer erred in the original negotiation, since the first phase of the Beacon is already receiving this 10% rate ..... putting Canco at a competitive disadvantage.

The reduction translates directly into lower payments for the prospective buyers, making the development more desirable (perception wise).

Posted on: 2008/6/11 20:56
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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Quote:

yesfan wrote:
if all these condos like canco and the beacon would just lower there sales prices buy 15 - 20%,they would probably sell more units and faster.its better to sell 200 units at slightly less money,then sell 60 units and have more then half the place empty.


You'd have to tell the developers to stop giving "contributions" to JC officials, but then the developers would never get anything done in a timely fashion.

Posted on: 2008/6/11 20:24
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Re: With loft sales stalled, Journal Squares' Canco seeks sweeter tax abatement deal
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if all these condos like canco and the beacon would just lower there sales prices buy 15 - 20%,they would probably sell more units and faster.its better to sell 200 units at slightly less money,then sell 60 units and have more then half the place empty.

Posted on: 2008/6/11 20:05
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