Quote:




Yes, I agree. I think that the term "ground floor
apartment" is the clearest.
The important thing about the terminology is
that we should be clearly understood by parties other
than JC political-bureaucratic hacks. If we have to go to
Trenton on to D.E.P., we want them to be
crystal clear that people living on the ground
level are perfectly legal in doing so; whereas
for years folks here have lived illegally in
basements/cellars and the city always said that
it was the residents' own fault if they got
flooded and sewered out because they
were not living in legallly sanctioned units.

The city has for years traditionally dumped the
onus of flooding back onto the residents and
property owners by saying that living at
ground level here has hazards that are
unavoidable because of high water levels
in the ground and etc, etc.
Paradoxically, the city is delighted to grant
permits for ground floor rehab and construction.

This time around, we must not let the city
ballyhoo and divide the people, as they have done
so successfully in the past.

1. Why is it that our elected officials are unable to abide by grammatical rules? Affect and effect are different words and can not be used interchangeably. (And, for Healy, the plural of "boy" is "boys," not "boy's.") To be fair to Steve, an error on an Internet post is not the same as an error on a poster placed all over town.

2. Regarding terminology:
(a) Ground Floor: If the apartment floor is level with the sidewalk, that is not a basement or a cellar, but is a "ground floor."
(b) Basement Apartment: If the apartment floor is below ground level, it is a "basement apartment."
(c) Basement: If the floor is so low as to be uninhabitable, it is just a basement (or cellar, but let's go with basement).

3. Steve, can you post those case citations on this board for those of us legal geeks? Thanks!

4. I am appalled that the MUA guy did not know the capacity of their own system and claimed ignorance about the flooding problems downtown. I think a search process for a replacement should be started immediately.

Cheers!
PG

Quote:

That's my understanding too. What I've heard is that a basement is less than 50% beneath grade, thus occupiable, while a cellar is more than 50% and thus not legal for primary occupancy.

These guys have been blowing smoke up downtown's collective butt for decades, they've got lots of practice at it and expect it to work again. They "divide & conquer" by blaming the victims property infrastructure, and thus defusing community momentum for demanding system upgrade. They came prepared to do it once more last night with their "survey forms" that will lead to a drawn out process of owners spending thousands of dollars to still get flooded. But by then the group outrage will have subsided.

We can't let the storm blow over on them again (pardon the metaphor). The crowd last night was great, but I'm sure it was a fraction of those who should have been there, but couldn't or didn't know about it. Keep spreading the word about the movement to pressure the MUA to actually fix something.

1. Please don't decide on Garden Level - rather too grand and or ironic for a space that periodically fills with human fertilizer

2. My grandmother, who I believe was born in about 1880 called the lower duplex of a row house the "parlee" floor/basement. Below that was the cellar - as in coal cellar. I believe the tax rolls describe my house as basement + two stories as does my insurance policy.

3. My dictionary says the basement is the portion of a building beneath the principal story (i.e. the parlee floor).

4. I think basement is probably the most accurate term.

I think it would be good to develop and agree
upon a common language to use in regard to
sewer and storm drain backups that enter
peoples' homes.
For instance: I reside in a steet level
apartment, hence I call it the ground floor.
Other people call it a basement. Some might
even say I live in a cellar. These are terms
that we all use interchangeably, -- but I feel that
in respect to making MUA and other agencies
pay attention to us, we need to express that
the people most affected by the flood problems
here are those who reside ( as in "ground floor apt.")
in and amongst the backed-up sewerage, not
those people fortunate to have cellars where
at most they simply store things. The majority
of houses in my immediate area do not have
basements or cellars. In the majority of
cases, people reside on the street level of
those buildings. Those people are directly
impacted by flooding and sewer back-flow.

The MUA at last night's meeting were using
the typical diversionary ploy of insinuating that
everyone has a cellar, and so at worst
the threat is to the heating plant and
laundry, maybe. This is not true for Down-
town. Maybe in the Heights, folks have
cellars; but not so many downtown.
And so if we keep using a fluctuating
language, our argument gets dissipated
in front of legislators from out of town
who do not realize that we actually
live at ground level, not above a full
cellar, and that raw sewage flows into
our bedrooms and bathrooms and kitchens.

We need to keep the argument strong.
There is immediate health threat to
living in the filth that we live in,
and as someone eloquently said at
the meeting, downtown has become
like living in a third world city, at least
sanitation-wise.
We pay enuf taxes here to have 24"
diameter sewers
lined with stainless steel..
What is going on?
p.s. That "50-year storm clown" from MUA is like our
own local Dick Cheney, no?

LOW points of the evening:

Quote:

HIGH point of the evening:

Witnessing JCMUA-Executive Director's reaction as he spotted a parking cop slip an orange ticket under the wiper blade of his white suv parked too close to the intersection of Erie and 8th. Glad I was there to witness the interaction between one of the most proficient and one of the most unproductive of Jersey City's Authorities. Wish I had a camera, it was priceless.

Thanks for attending yesterday as the turnout was great.

Overall, I am happy with the way it went as the MUA got to see a large group of residents that wanted action not excuses. Historically, when they deal with small groups it is difficult to get traction but yesterday I think the urgency of the situation was effectively communicated.

As discussed these are the next steps:

1) We will meet in the next two weeks to discuss their new strategy and I will forward out their actionable plan to start proactively addressing the problem.

2) Organize the yahoo groups list so that those effected can communicate with regards to this issue. I will have this done within the next week

3) I had lawyers pull case law on this issue as contingency plan in the case that they don?t want to address the problem. There are two specific cases in NJ that specifically have dealt with this issue (one in Newark and one coincidentally in Jersey City during the late 60s and 70s) - This is last resort for sure although I will forward for those of you interested in reading

4) FEMA contact number that was provided in the case you had damage in the last storm specifically

5) Engineering report for your individual house that the MUA offered per their questionnaire. They hope to have this part started by July


thanks again
Steve

"I'm the head of JCMUA". "I've been in my job for umpteen years but i need a questionaire in 2007 to tell me where are the downtown flooding problems". "I dont know the capacity of my system". "You are going to get your basements flooded twice a year everytime we get a 50-year high rainfall". "Trenton are not going to pay 0.68 Billion to fix the problem".

Sorry my friend, you are a worthless idiot in your curent job - it's way beyond your ability, and I demand that you resign or are fired immediately.

Basement flooding is the tip of the iceberg, though I really feel for my neighbors on the costs and neglect.

My take is that if the City takes no action, people will DIE. The JCMUA admitted in the meeting that flowing sewage in basments and roads were a serious health hazard. Couple that with the serious riisk of electrocution from flooded roads, overloading of the emergency services, etc

OK JCMUA...how many DEAD people do you need to take action?

I too want to thank Councilman Fulop for making this happen. My fear is that the MUA is apparently used to this issue coming to a head and then fading away (as evidenced by the accounts of people having these meetings since at least 1983). Let's keep the pressure on. I think the turnout tonight was great and everyone that spoke confirmed that we are not going to let the deflection continue back on to us (the victims). There is nothing wrong with our property, its sanitary lines, drains or connections. The problem lies with the MUA and their inadequate sewer system. We don't need another study. If you go to

http://www.harsimuscove.org/documents.html

and go to the "flooding fact section" you will see an internal memo dated 2004 where the MUA did an internal study identifying the short comings of the sewer system.

I think quarterly meetings with or without the MUA are called for so that as a group we can monitor their progress towards a solution.

Quote:

MUA Flooding Questionnaire:

Click here to open JPG of full size form

Click here to open PDF of full size form

FEMA Disaster Assistance Info: (English and Spanish)

They act surprised because if they admit there is a problem, then, since they are the MUA, they will have to deal with the problem. The one guy kept refering to "15 year floods" or something, so its clear that he is deliberately ignoring the fact that we flood 3-4 times per year. He's clearly not stupid, so he must be obfuscating.

Regardless of wether they will admit it or not- the city certified my apartment as habitable, so it has to maintain it as habitable, or pay me. Pay me a lot. My feeling is that we will have to sue them. The only way you can force any city organ to disgorge the money you pay them is to threaten them with jail or fines. Coercion is clearly the only way to go.

These guys are used to dealing with renters. Renters can leave. I'm vested in the community, and I can't just up and go away. I'm betting that more and more people in this neighborhood are like me, and more and more of them are well aware of what the words "class action lawsuit" means, and how to get one started.


As for the dudes that run the MUA, those guys have got to go. That's it. It isn' that they don't get it, its that they refuse to get it.

Yes I think thanks are due to Steven for organizing this look into the workings of the JCMUA.

The messages I got were:

1. FEMA aid is available to qualifying residents of Hudson County.
2. JCMUA would like to work with the residents to find out the causes of the problem and to seek funding to resolve.

I was astonished at some of the exchanges. (Apologies if not perfectly reported).

Resident: "You know where the problems lie - they happen every time it rains"
JCMUA: "We don't, that's why we're sending out the questionaire."

JCMUA: "We had 50-year rainfall high. Our system is designed for a 5-year high".
Resident: "What is the actual capacity?".
JCMUA: "We don't have those numbers with us".

Resident: "Let's get residents, politicians and the MUA mobilized together on the issue of state grants...."
JCMUA: "We don't think we have done anything wrong with our grant applications"

Councilman Fulop,

Thanks for setting this meeting up. I found in concerning that the MUA reps seemed somewhat surprised at the issues raised by flood-impacted residents. Clearly, this is not a new phenomena. I think everyone understands we have 150-year old pipes. What is more difficult to comprehend is why this problem wasn't addressed when the system turned 140 or 130, since flooding from overloaded sewers has been happening for decades by several accounts at the forum.

Also, would it be possible to distribute the MUA questionnaire electronically, so that more people than just those that attended can file a complaint?

Thanks, I dont think we will be short on people but just trying to stay in front of it

You never can really tell with these things so presence is important as it is the "squeaky wheel" situation

Steve

I know this is probably not helpful, but if you are short on people and need to bring up the number of people who wrote to you but were unable to attend, please include me -- resident of Bright Street near PS3/MS4. I will be in Philadelphia tonight helping my mother who is having surgery today.

My most recent story is as follows: The basement of the brownstone in which I own a condo flooded this last storm and required all of us who live here to pitch in and bail for several hours straight and to continue periodic bailing throughout the night. I am quite sure (although I suppose I have no actual proof) that a good deal of the water in our basement came UP from a floor drain that is connected to the city storm drainage system. I was able to snake 25 ft (the length of my mini snake) and found no blockage -- the water was clearly just backing up to our drain hole from the street gutters. This is unacceptable.

Thanks for your efforts!

Rebecca
(aka PhillyGirl)

Reminder, tonight 8pm at Cordero School (158 Erie)

We will have people from the MUA there but I cant stress enough how important attendance is in order to get this moving forward

Thanks
Steve

Someone needs to ask where all the hook up fee money went.Every builder must kick in money per unit to hook into the sewer system.I think it is 1500 per unit.So where is the money?Its a sewer connection charge that is paid to the MUA.With the massive amount of building in the last ten years there should have been money to at least have done the sewer survey.

In answer to my own question the City uses this money to close its budget every year.This is a good place to start.

It's good to see you getting involved with this, Steve. After education and crime, there isn't a more important issue to downtown homeowners, as far as I'm concerned.

I won't be able to make the meeting because I'm in Brazil, where the rainy season is just beginning. We get torrential tropical rain here that makes the rain in Jersey City seem like a sun shower. Our house here in Bahia used to flood this time of year, but a whole new sewer system was installed a few years ago, giant cement tubes that run down the middle of the street, and there is no more flooding in the neighborhood.

The natural question is, if it can be done here in Brazil, where our property taxes are about 50 US dollars a year, why can?t it be done in Jersey City?

But it wouldn?t be entirely fair. Our neighborhood here in Brazil never had a sewer system, certainly not the hundred-year-old mess we have in Jersey City, and the streets weren?t paved, so it was a much less expensive job. Also, the federal, state, and local government all chipped in, with help from international agencies.

But the fact remains: Here in Bahia, where residents live on a fraction of what we make in Jersey City, where very few people have college educations, people petitioned their local and state government until something was done.

It doesn?t seem like it?s asking too much of the City to do a study and find out exactly what needs to be done, and how much it will cost.

In the meantime, I?ve had success at our house on Third Street with this particular valve that prevents backflow. In my experience, check-valves, while they?re better than nothing, are not 100 percent reliable. Something will always clog it, as 4bailey said

Brewster will point out, as he did last year, that sewer main backflow is only part of the problem. I?m not talking about other sources of flooding, only the sewer main. The valve I?m using, here's the link, (http://www.jrsmith.com/products/prodcat.htm) has worked 100 percent of the time since it was installed about two years ago. Knock on wood. That doesn?t mean it will always work, but it has worked until now.

To everyone who?s working on trying to resolve the issue, thanks; I'd like to be there to contribute. Again, after improving schools and reducing crime, it?s arguably the single most important issue downtown.

4 Bailey - I haven't experienced more than one or two surges in the last few years, which indicates (based on a sample of two) that the problem varies from street to street. It might be a good idea to have a large neighborhood map at the meeting, so that people can indicate where they live and the extent and nature of their problems - color coding or maybe some sort of scale like 1-5. This might help prioritize where help goes first.

It would also be good to know the city's policy on releasing untreated water into the river. It seems to me that they are more readily doing this now than they did years ago. I'm almost certain that DEP or EPA can levy a fine when that happens, but despite my tree-hugger credentials I'd rather have sewerage in the river than in my dining room.

Does anyone know if a two part sewer system is already in place on the waterfront? Seems that any construction done in the last 20 years should have at least been prepped for hookup when a new system comes on line.

Either one or both of us will be there!

We installed a check-valve about a 1 and ? years ago. It?s made a BIG difference (we escaped this last round), but it?s still susceptible to clogs. We had a valve clog last summer and experienced the same ?pre-valve? symptoms.

The other problem is that even if your check-valve is working during a surge and closed, rain water and building waste water (we own a multi-family) will still accumulate in the system until the surge is relieved. So even with a check-valve, you?re playing ?beat the clock?, hoping the surge relives before the ?house side? of the valve fills up.

Sewer surges have been more frequent and lasting longer. I?d conservatively estimate we see 10+ surges a year, often multiple surges during a single storm.

I?m no expert on the engineering or environmental mandates, but as a first-step, I?d like to see a study done by impartial professionals (definitely NOT the MUA) that lays out the costs, relative effectiveness, and environmental compliance of each proposed solution.

First things first. The facts.

No matter the cost to install storm sewers, the amount of work involved and its relationship to flooding, JC MUST split its sewers. Why? Federal mandate. The Clean Water Act (CWA) that has helped turn around the state of our rivers (and Jersey City is wayyyyyyyyyyy behind) and receiving waters makes it illegal to allow the release of untreated wastewater. Its as simple as that.

This is why, those of you who have renovated or put in new plumbing lines in your house were required to split your rain gutters (storm sewer) and the lines servicing your toilet, etc. (sanitary). Thus when the city gets around to installing storm sewer lines, they will remove the Y at your connection and connect the lines correspondingly.

Additionally, federal mandate is enforced in NJ by the NJDEP. Jersey City is required to install storm sewers citywide. Yes, it will likely be very costly...but I'm pretty sure they aren't planning on doing it all at one time.

One thing is clear, some areas in JC flood with regular frequency. JC should focus on these areas, right? These troubled areas won't be cheap but they won't be billions either. Why does the MUA paint it so?

Oh and the JCMUA has known about the problem for many years. Rather than showing even false sympathies, they blamed the flooding on acts of God and those foolish enough to live on a ground floor. All these years, the MUA could have slowly been doing a little work here and there...

There are folks working to make something happen. Make your voice heard at the April 30 meeting Councilman Fulop has organized.

See ya there!

Quote:

While a giant catch basin with a giant pump is certainly the most feasible short term solution, which should certainly be implemented (as it in other low lying cities), it is not the best long term plan. Not least among the reasons is because dumping raw sewage into the Hudson every time a decent rainstorm hits is unconscionable and illegal.

There needs to be a plan to modernize the 100+ year old sewers made of cracking bricks, even if it's a 50 year plan. As it stands we don't even have that.

I hope to be a the meeting if I can get a babysitter. We had a meeting 9 years ago at Grace VV Church with Mr Beckmeyer (chief sewer engineer) who said "flooding sewers are an act of God". That statement of bureaucratic apathy and contempt has stuck in my craw ever since.

I dont think anyone has seriously suggested ripping up the streets, though it doesnt rule out looking at adding partial storm-water solutions. It makes sense do a serious study on the options and costs involved. We might even benefit tackling the problem jointly with neighboring cities such as Hoboken.

I'd also like to understand the emergency response across the county. NJ declared a state of emergency, but there were very mixed responses at the local level. I understand that places like downtown JC and Hoboken are in the highest risk flood areas as far as insurance...though the plan seems to be "wait till the tide goes out and we'll clean-up the mess". Do we have any real plan in-place?

I'll make sure my neighbors who were flooded know about the meeting.

I'm there Steve, and I am bringing my army.

I wish I could attend, but will be out of town. Would love to hear about everything that was discussed, especially since I experienced a good amount of flooding and have it all on video.

As an option, the city could subsidize the cost and installation of product similar to this link.

http://www.evereadyfloodcontrol.com/dellvalve.html

Councilman Fulop,

I did not experience any flooding but many of my neighbors did and I saw the damage it did to many of their homes.

I have heard that a number of downtown residents have suggested installing a new, parallel system to separate the sewer and storm drainage systems.

But as nice as it would be, an idea like that seems like a non-starter. I don't think that tearing up every street and running a new line to every storm drain or every home to separate the storm and sewer systems is feasible. And focusing on that would mean other, more feasible options probably wouldn't be studied.

If as the MUA has stated, the biggest problem is that the pipes that empty into the Hudson back up when the river level rises, why not look into installing a pumping station that can pump the water to an exit pipe located at a higher level when the river rises? That might help to alleviate at least part of the problem and would seem to be a lot cheaper than running an entirely new, parallel sewer system.

WebMaster,
If at all possible please leave as its own thread so that it doesn't get lost for the people who need to attend.
----------------------------------

If you had/have any flooding in your home or business
please try to attend this meeting so I can get the most detail and push the MUA to have the problem corrected.

I will get flyers put throughout the ward in the next few days to make sure people are aware of this meeting but there is strength in numbers on issues like this, so if you could please spread the word as well that would be helpful.

Thanks in advance.

Steven Fulop
Councilman Ward "E"

When: Monday, April 30, 2007 @ 8PM
Where: Cordero School, 158 Erie St