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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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CdeCoincy wrote:
How is putting household garbage in supermarket bags environmentally different than using purchased bags? As far as bags on your roof vs bags in landfill, I suspect the roof gets more sun and rain. I'd also like proof that washing dishes is ecologically better than using disposible paper plates.


In a properly designed landfill, organic matter decomposes VERY slow due to being buried (sheltered from the elements). A researcher years back did core drills 30+ years in the past and found newspapers that were still readable. He even found scrambled eggs that fossilized.

My post was more concerned with the idea that banning plastic bags will reduce litter. I have a huge problem with litter in front of my building in more or less in this order (most to least common):

1. Those free coupon circulars / advertisement papers.
2. Take-out food containers (foam, paper, and plastic).
3. Bottles / cans of malt liquor, cheap booze, and cheap beer.
4. Paper bags (that covered items in #3)
5. Plastic shopping bags (very distant #5).

The problem to me is that we have a city loaded with lazy douchebags who use the city streets (or in my case, my bushes) as their own personal landfill. This is a quality of life enforcement problem.. not a plastic bag problem.

Banning plastic bags will only inconvenience the rest of us.. plus as other pointed out, force people like me to buy more trash bags (I re-use shopping bags for that purpose).

Posted on: 2014/12/3 14:16
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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borisp wrote:
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MDM wrote:
Something I noticed while doing a project on my roof this summer. I had plastic components in bags:

Those store plastic bags, when exposed to sunlight, disintegrate fairly quickly. The paper bags actually outlasted them.


Oh, that's a know fact - those plastic bags are cheaper and pollute less than paper. And, of course, if they "phase them out" we will have to buy more trash bags instead.

But this is not about reason. This is about religion.
Bags must be phased out.
It's the Dogma


You seem to be circling a question I have. How is putting household garbage in supermarket bags environmentally different than using purchased bags? As far as bags on your roof vs bags in landfill, I suspect the roof gets more sun and rain. I'd also like proof that washing dishes is ecologically better than using disposible paper plates.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 12:51
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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MDM wrote:
Something I noticed while doing a project on my roof this summer. I had plastic components in bags:

Those store plastic bags, when exposed to sunlight, disintegrate fairly quickly. The paper bags actually outlasted them.


Oh, that's a know fact - those plastic bags are cheaper and pollute less than paper. And, of course, if they "phase them out" we will have to buy more trash bags instead.

But this is not about reason. This is about religion.
Bags must be phased out.
It's the Dogma.




Posted on: 2014/12/3 6:06
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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phase out and fine manufacturing companies for wasteful packaging !

Posted on: 2014/12/2 21:21
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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Something I noticed while doing a project on my roof this summer. I had plastic components in bags:

Those store plastic bags, when exposed to sunlight, disintegrate fairly quickly. The paper bags actually outlasted them.

Posted on: 2014/12/2 20:36
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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I'd like Fulop and other Mayor's to agree to phase out over packaging of products and packaging products simply so that they display well on shelves.

How many times have we seen a small product over packaged to acquire a larger display area?

Posted on: 2014/12/2 2:43
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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just in the past month or so - Shop Rite stopped giving a $0.05 credit for reusable bags. this issue appears to have dropped off the radar - we need to do something - tax plastic bags, offer credits for reusable bags or ban plastic bags (across the board)



Posted on: 2014/12/2 1:22
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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Gee... the American Plastic Manufacturers (APM in the "apmbags" you cite) don't like plastic bag bans. Surprising. The fact is - using the number APM provides - the average American uses 326 plastic bags per year. With 247,000 people in Jersey City, that is more than 80 million bags per year. While there are certainly people who "reuse" them (I'd argue that using them for something - trash bags, dog poop bags - that results in them going straight to the landfill really isn't "reuse") many, many more people don't. Ever walk around the city and see them in trees, blowing around on vacant lots, clogging storm drains? There is a tree across Marin from City Hall that eight stuck in it when the city was first debating this issue. Doesn't it seem reasonable that if something were done to put a serious dent in 80 million bags being used each year that it would have a beneficial effect on litter - not to mention reduction of hydrocarbon consumption.

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dtjcview wrote:
For those supporting the plastic bag ban, some rebuttals please for apmbags.

http://www.apmbags.com/bagmyths


Plastic Bag Myths
Plastic bags are being demonized across the world these days, but most of the statistics given to justify bag bans and taxes are either misleading or just plain wrong. Below are some of the more popular myths about plastic bags, as well as some interesting facts.

Oil Consumption

MYTH: According to many websites and environmental groups, plastic bag manufacturing uses a large percentage of the crude oil that is consumed in the US. Some suggest that eliminating plastic bags would reduce our dependence on oil.

TRUTH: American plastic bags are made from natural gas, NOT oil. In the U.S., 85 percent of the raw material used to make plastic bags is produced from natural gas.

Banning or taxing plastic bags will do nothing to curb oil consumption.



Actually, the "truth" is kind of false. Plastic bags are made through chemical processes that can source from either natural gas or oil. Right now, while natural gas is a lot cheaper than oil, chemical companies (plastics manufacturers as well) have switched to gas. When oil was relatively cheaper, they used oil.

Posted on: 2012/5/29 15:41
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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Shoprite is dying? That place is mobbed all the time and last I heard they wouldn't even think of allowing redevelopment on that lot because it was one of their most profitable stores in the country.

Maybe you mean Shoprite in general and not JC? That could well be so but it is not relevant to the JC Shoprite which is doing great.

Posted on: 2012/5/29 12:18
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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I do my shopping in Fort Lee and Bayonne, where plastic bags are legal, so Healy and Fulop can kiss my polyethylene.

Posted on: 2012/5/28 21:58
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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moobycow wrote:
Hey, I actually agree that the ban is kind of silly (though perhaps not linking to a plastic bag company as your source would have worked better for you), I just find your position even sillier. People shop in the stores in JC because they live next to the stores in JC. The percentage of people who are suddenly going to add much longer trip so they can get plastic bags will be negligible.


A&P and Shoprite are already dying because of competition from the likes of Walmart. With retail there is probably 3 factors determining their profit and business - price, quality and convenience. JC stores are already getting killed on price and quality by NJ competition. When the 3% enterprise zone tax expires, and the plastic bag prohibition comes into effect, we'll see whether the position is silly, and whether JC has a few new empty parking lots.

Posted on: 2012/5/28 21:46
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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Just walking through my neighborhood park, Bayside Park, and seeing all the garbage strewn around, makes me so disappointed in those people.


There was just a block association meeting in the park last week regarding the park.

The city actually sent over a detective to address some of the concerns of the home owners, Not sure where you are exactly, but It has gotten allot better, we have begun to organize volunteer clean ups, if you are interested inbox me.

Plastic bags are good for one thing only, picking up dog shit!

Tyler

Posted on: 2012/5/28 11:27
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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Hey, I actually agree that the ban is kind of silly (though perhaps not linking to a plastic bag company as your source would have worked better for you), I just find your position even sillier. People shop in the stores in JC because they live next to the stores in JC. The percentage of people who are suddenly going to add much longer trip so they can get plastic bags will be negligible.

Posted on: 2012/5/28 11:15
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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For those supporting the plastic bag ban, some rebuttals please for apmbags.

http://www.apmbags.com/bagmyths





Plastic Bag Myths
Plastic bags are being demonized across the world these days, but most of the statistics given to justify bag bans and taxes are either misleading or just plain wrong. Below are some of the more popular myths about plastic bags, as well as some interesting facts.

Oil Consumption

MYTH: According to many websites and environmental groups, plastic bag manufacturing uses a large percentage of the crude oil that is consumed in the US. Some suggest that eliminating plastic bags would reduce our dependence on oil.

TRUTH: American plastic bags are made from natural gas, NOT oil. In the U.S., 85 percent of the raw material used to make plastic bags is produced from natural gas.

Banning or taxing plastic bags will do nothing to curb oil consumption.

Single Use

MYTH: Most proposed bag bans and taxes use statistics based on an assumption that plastic bags are only used once.

TRUTH: Studies have shown that 80-90% of the population reuse plastic grocery bags at least once. As trash bin liners, for picking up after pets, as lunch sacks, holding wet laundry, etc. Plastic bags are also very easy to recycle, and most grocery stores provide bag recycling bins.

Ireland's Bag Tax

MYTH: Ireland's 2002 tax on plastic grocery bags reduced plastic bag use by 90%.

TRUTH: This is partially true, but doesn't tell the whole story. Use of plastic grocery checkout bags declined, but sales of packaged plastic bags went up by about 400%, resulting in a net gain in plastic bags going to landfills. This shows that most people were reusing their plastic grocery bags for tasks where plastic bags are the best solution - trash can liners, picking up after the dog, wet garbage, etc.

San Francisco Bag Ban

MYTH: In 2008, San Francisco banned plastic bags, which resulted in a huge drop in bag use, and an increase in reusable bags.

TRUTH: Yes, since plastic bags were banned, stores stopped using them. But there was not a huge shift towards reusable bags. Instead, there was a huge increase in paper bag consumption. According to all studies, paper bags are responsible for many times the pollution and oil consumption than plastic bags. Paper is heavier, and not as durable, as plastic and requires far more resources to create, and creates much more air and water pollution. In addition to this, the San Fran Ban also practically eliminated bag recycling programs in the city, and after one year, plastic bag litter (the main reason for the ban) had actually increased.

Recycling

MYTH: Recycling plastic bags is extremely costly and difficult.

TRUTH: Recycling programs are growing all the time, and plastic recycling is actually a very simple, cost effective and energy efficient process. The main products currently made from recycled grocery bags is composite lumber, and new bags.

Marine Wildlife Tangled in Bags

MYTH: "Over 100 thousand marine animals die from becoming tangled in discarded plastic bags each year."

TRUTH: The report that this myth was based on (a Canadian study from 1987) didn't mention plastic bags at all. In 2002 the Australian Government commissioned a study on plastic bags, and the authors misquoted the 1987 study. What the original study found was that between 1981 and 1984 over 100 thousand marine mammals and birds were killed by being caught in discarded fishing nets and lines.

Furthermore, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has stated that it is unable to find studies to support many of the statements that assert plastic bags cause harm to marine wildlife and that many quotes about plastic marine debris are false, unproven or exaggerated.

Litter

MYTH: Plastic bags are a major source of litter, and banning or taxing bags will reduce litter.

TRUTH: Plastic bags make up less than one percent of all litter. Cigarette butts, fast food packaging, and food wrappers are much larger contributors. Banning one item that becomes litter does nothing to change the mindset of those that discard trash improperly. Many of the bags that end up as litter blow off of garbage trucks or out of landfills. Landfill operators and garbage haulers should be held accountable for items that escape containment.

Since plastic bags are responsible for less than 1% of all litter, banning or taxing them will have no impact. The solution to litter is public education, recycling programs, and proper disposal.

Landfills

MYTH: Landfills are overflowing with plastic bags.

TRUTH: Plastic bags are easily recycled, but even if they do end up in a landfill, they take up a small fraction of one percent of landfill space. The average person uses about 326 plastic grocery bags per year, which by weight is about the same as a phone book or two. By comparison, the average person generates nearly one ton (2000 pounds) of garbage each year.

The major contributor to landfills is paper, wood and construction debris. Banning or taxing plastic bags would mean that more paper bags would get used, resulting in more waste going to the landfill.

Paper Bags are Better

MYTH: Many people believe that paper bags are a better environmental choice than plastic.

TRUTH: Paper bags, even recycled ones, require many times more energy to produce than plastic. Paper production and recycling also produces far more air and water pollution than plastic. And because paper bags weigh nearly 10 times that of plastic bags, they require 10 times the fuel to transport.

Paper bags can also be easily contaminated with oils, grease, and food waste that can contaminate entire batches of recycling. Plastic bags can be cleaned prior to recycling to eliminate contaminants.

Reusable Bags

MYTH: The prevailing environmental opinion is that heavyweight canvas, cotton, and polypropylene reusable bags are the best choice to replace plastic bags.

TRUTH: While these reusable bags are great for some uses, their environmental impact hasn't been properly studied. Most are made in China, where health and pollution standards are somewhat lax, and then shipped halfway across the globe to get to you.

Reusable bags also can't be used for the myriad of things that disposable bags are used for. If disposable bags aren't available at the checkout stand, people will purchase packaged bags for secondary uses such as trash can liners.

Bans and Taxes

MYTH: Taxing grocery bags or banning plastic bags will reduce greenhouse gasses and save the planet.

TRUTH: Since bags are a minimal contributor to all the problems associated with them (oil use, litter, landfill volume, etc.), bans and taxes simply won't do anything for the environment. And because the alternatives all require more fuel to create, recycle, and transport, eliminating plastic bags actually increases greenhouse gasses.

Posted on: 2012/5/28 4:47
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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borisp wrote:
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ianmac47 wrote:
In five years, plastic bag bans will be commonplace. In a decade, they will be banned everywhere in the civilized United States.

Get over yourselves. For every plastic bag that gets reused as a trash bag, another ten are just thrown away or end up blowing around as urban tumbleweed. Single use plastic is a plague on our world.


Will you say the same about every kind of garbage? Like I saw a lot of newspapers, coffee cups, gum wrappers, and so on and so forth.

Do you plan to pronounce all of them a plague and argue for the ban on them all?

If not, clarify please why do you partial to one specific form of garbage?


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In the end, no consumer is a going to notice the difference.


Oh, yes, they will. If the store gives me no bag, - I can't carry what I purchased. And, if so, I shop elsewhere.

But, hey, who needs them businesses and all them jobs they create, right?


I'm sure you'll figure it out. Or if not, you'll starve to death when you refuse to go shopping without the ever essential plastic bag, in which case the world will be better off.

Posted on: 2012/5/28 3:42
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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ianmac47 wrote:
In five years, plastic bag bans will be commonplace. In a decade, they will be banned everywhere in the civilized United States.

Get over yourselves. For every plastic bag that gets reused as a trash bag, another ten are just thrown away or end up blowing around as urban tumbleweed. Single use plastic is a plague on our world.


Will you say the same about every kind of garbage? Like I saw a lot of newspapers, coffee cups, gum wrappers, and so on and so forth.

Do you plan to pronounce all of them a plague and argue for the ban on them all?

If not, clarify please why do you partial to one specific form of garbage?


Quote:
In the end, no consumer is a going to notice the difference.


Oh, yes, they will. If the store gives me no bag, - I can't carry what I purchased. And, if so, I shop elsewhere.

But, hey, who needs them businesses and all them jobs they create, right?

Posted on: 2012/5/28 3:30
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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Just walking through my neighborhood park, Bayside Park, and seeing all the garbage strewn around, makes me so disappointed in those people.

I wish the JC Police would start enforcing littering laws by writing tickets so the message would get around that there is a price to pay for making nasty to our streets and parks.

Posted on: 2012/5/27 20:36
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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The less plastic that ends up in the ground and on the streets will better our lives and the generations after us. I just wish there were better alternatives to plastic garbage bags. Think about all the plastic that generates and ends up in the earth! I know they have biodegradable ones, but they end up falling apart while they're still in the trash can and you might as well not use them at all.

Posted on: 2012/5/27 14:46
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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It's not like they're going to make you carry your groceries without a bag, there are alternatives. Going someplace because they have an item you can't get in JC or because it is cheaper is a very, very different thing than going because they don't have a plastic bag.

Posted on: 2012/5/27 14:38
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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In five years, plastic bag bans will be commonplace. In a decade, they will be banned everywhere in the civilized United States.

Get over yourselves. For every plastic bag that gets reused as a trash bag, another ten are just thrown away or end up blowing around as urban tumbleweed. Single use plastic is a plague on our world.

In the end, no consumer is a going to notice the difference.

Posted on: 2012/5/27 14:28
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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moobycow wrote:
You would seriously go 15-20 minutes out of your way to go to a place with a plastic bag? I agree that it is just a symbolic gesture but I can't imagine that many people will add of 30 minutes to their shopping trips so they can use a plastic bag. I expect the grand total of lost business here to be right around $0.


Don't be surprised at why people may take their business elsewhere. My mom-in-law lives in JC but shops mostly at the Sam's Club in Secaucus because of price. I generally prefer to shop at the Shoprite in Hoboken, because they carry a few items that I can't get at the JC A&P/Shoprite. When I do shop in JC, it's down to convenience. When it becomes more inconvenient, I'll be taking my $400+ monthly shopping list to somewhere that I don't have to worry about bagging.

Posted on: 2012/5/27 7:03
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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When I shop, I usually bring home 25 +bags, yes I use plastic. Then I use the plastic for garbage. I would have to use a lot of water to rewash cloth bags. So my water bill would increase. Maybe this is the reason the city wants us to use cloth bags, more revenue for water.

Posted on: 2012/5/27 1:21
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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come to think of it, we should phase out plastic bags. why do we need a new plastic bag to carry something for 5 minutes that is just getting thrown away when we get home. (i try and reuse them as trash bags, but there are just too many and they pile up). trust me, it won't be an apocalypse when it happens. i highly doubt you are going to be driving out of your way to get groceries. it's ridiculous.

Posted on: 2012/5/27 1:09
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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Has any one here ever hear of reusable shopping bags? I have like five of em.. I use them over and over. When they get dirty, I throw them in the wash.. LOL on in JC.

Posted on: 2012/5/27 1:05
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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If you are buying for a family, plastic bags are more convenient than paper, especially in bad weather. No shopper wants a wet paperbag. I predict people with cars will bring their business to stores in Bayonne (Stop and Shop or Shoprite).

Posted on: 2012/5/27 0:55
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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You would seriously go 15-20 minutes out of your way to go to a place with a plastic bag? I agree that it is just a symbolic gesture but I can't imagine that many people will add of 30 minutes to their shopping trips so they can use a plastic bag. I expect the grand total of lost business here to be right around $0.

Posted on: 2012/5/26 23:34
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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81905 wrote:
Seems spiteful and bone-headed dtjcview. You would rather deal with more traffic and pay more in gas then simply getting some cheap, reusable shopping bags? They compress down to the size of a lemon and weigh nothing.


What does saving a few plastic bags at checkout save in the grand scheme of things? The US is probably the most wasteful country on this planet. What does this City statute buy other than a few votes and drive some shoppers to Bayonne and Hoboken? I'll be "bone-headed" on this one along with possibly thousands of people that will shop outside of JC, until it becomes a state mandate.


I doubt people will drive out of their way just to get plastic bags at a different grocery store. true, it may not seem like much, but i guess every little bit helps, environment-wise. you have to start somewhere. i currently don't have re-usable shopping bags but if we switched over i'm sure i would just buy some and adapt. this really wouldn't be more than a minor inconvenience.

Posted on: 2012/5/26 22:26
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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Quote:

81905 wrote:
Seems spiteful and bone-headed dtjcview. You would rather deal with more traffic and pay more in gas then simply getting some cheap, reusable shopping bags? They compress down to the size of a lemon and weigh nothing.


What does saving a few plastic bags at checkout save in the grand scheme of things? The US is probably the most wasteful country on this planet. What does this City statute buy other than a few votes and drive some shoppers to Bayonne and Hoboken? I'll be "bone-headed" on this one along with possibly thousands of people that will shop outside of JC, until it becomes a state mandate.

Posted on: 2012/5/25 22:45
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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BTW, something that nobody explained to me yet - about all those plastic bags that will not rot for millenia.

Is it not what Global Warming doommongers want? I mean - if they want to remove the carbon from the circulation, - they should support creating of a big hole in the ground with lots of plastic in it, keeping carbon atoms tied... no?

And, let's build from wood as much as we can.

Posted on: 2012/5/25 4:06
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Re: Mayor Healy and Councilman Fulop agree on requiring businesses to phase out single-use plastic bags
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In honor of the idiocy that is "Waste Free JC campaign," I'm going to insist that everything be double plastic bagged when I go grocery shopping tomorrow.

Posted on: 2012/5/25 1:47
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