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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
 
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With all this talk of suing the Port Authority over the ADA accessibility issues, maybe someone should sue them to get an injunction against closing the elevator accessible WTC during weekends.
Posted on: 2008/10/9 13:30
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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BM, smooth your fur, I think that was just "alb-ese" for "having an additional group interested in the service being added can't hurt". "Selfish" was just poorly chosen way saying the disabled are "stakeholders". Thanks Steve, that's good new. I will say I look forward to the elevator, in that I'd certainly take my heavy bike into NY more often if I didn't have to schlep it down the those stairs.
Posted on: 2008/10/9 1:17
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Just can't stay away
 
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Just one additional note as this is a valid point that I spoke to the PA about a year ago. Thispast summer they officially allocated the funding for the new PATH at Grove Street to be fully accessible per ADA guidelines.
I am not sure if it was a mistake whne the temp glass structure was built however it will certainly be included. Steven Fulop
Posted on: 2008/10/9 0:44
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Sorry alb, but if you mean to say that those who are disabled "have a huge selfish stake in fighting for PATH elevators.", along with the "stroller moms", I beg to differ.
Posted on: 2008/10/9 0:41
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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Just to make it clear: I understand that stroller moms' need for elevators is completely trivial compared with wheelchair users' need for elevators. But I just think that, if it's physically/financially/mechanically possible to make the elevators available to stroller moms, that just increases the number of people who have a huge, selfish stake in fighting for PATH elevators.
Posted on: 2008/10/9 0:04
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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I was about to suggest that you should get out more, maybe see some movies, but now that I see the code, I think perhaps you are too subtle for me Br6dR, and are making your own joke.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 21:57
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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I'd like more info on the class action suit if you have it handy. I've been disabled since 2000 and not having access to an elevator is inconvenient at best and is why I haven't gotten a wheelchair, though my doc thinks I should. I tell him how would I travel to NYC and back since I live near the Grove St PATH station. I agree that concern should not only be focused on the crowding of platforms but also no access for strollers and wheelchairs. I've sent my $.02 worth of complaint to Fulop as well.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 21:57
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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2006/11/27 12:04 Last Login : 2016/7/1 9:09 From Southern JC
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I don't get the joke. What do baby carriages have to do with website URLs?
Posted on: 2008/10/8 20:39
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Funny math
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Just can't stay away
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sure there's been a big increase and that was off a pretty small base. My point is that compared to equidistant spots in Brooklyn, JC is way behind in terms of the percentage increase in number of families... JC : "big increase" "pretty small base" and yet its "percentage increase" is "way behind". Let me see % increase = "big increase" (numerator) divided by "pretty small base" (denominator), uhhh equates to what?!? Something "way behind", correct? Has Brookln's population really grown that much? I think not. Brooklyn, NY population growth
Posted on: 2008/10/8 17:32
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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Yes, baby carriages+train stations+stairs=always a bad combination. 
Posted on: 2008/10/8 16:54
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Home away from home
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as far as elevators around... i use the elevator between jersey city heights and hoboken at the light rail daily, and although it's been okay recently, last year at least one of the cars was out of service weekly.
funny thing is - to get help - when you'd get stuck in the car, unable to get out - you'd call 911, which would connect to hoboken, and they'd connect you to the hoboken fire department who would then call the jersey city fire department who'd send help. they were always nice, but it's pretty absurd. and funny thing is - they don't open the stairways unless both cars are broken
Posted on: 2008/10/8 15:47
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Home away from home
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sure there's been a big increase and that was off a pretty small base. My point is that compared to equidistant spots in Brooklyn, JC is way behind in terms of the percentage increase in number of families...
Furthermore I'm sure everyone in JC with a stroller is bummin that they have to lug their stroller+child down a bunch of steps to a crowded/infrequent train...
Posted on: 2008/10/8 15:38
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if you look at the tenants at Grove Pointe and others around there aren't that many families...."
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Just can't stay away
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"if you look at the tenants at Grove Pointe and others around there aren't that many families...."
Well then you have not looked hard enough. The JCPS is swelling with a sharp population increase of PreK and elementary school students. Likewise the same is true for day care facilities.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 15:22
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Home away from home
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To Alb's point about stroller moms/grocery stores being negative on lack of elevator - if you look at the tenants at Grove Pointe and others around there aren't that many families.
I think the reason JC is so much cheaper than comparable Brooklyn neighborhoods is because JC is much more inconvenient for families. You get a lot of singles who stay for a bit and move on when they have families. Whereas Brooklyn has a much higher percentage of people that plant long term roots. When people plant roots they work harder to improve the area. I'd bet the average duration of someone living in Grove Pointe or 50 Columbus is 3-4 years. Most won't be active in the neighborhood politics or even vote for that matter.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 14:09
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Home away from home
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Actually, because of the way the Port Authority is set up, each governor of New York and New Jersey have a great deal of power, if not direct control. The governors reserve the right to veto Port Authority appointments and actions. Take for instance some clips from the last 30 years: "Mr. Pataki is holding up the appointment of a new Port Authority chairman because he is seeking a guarantee from Mrs. Whitman that his appointees to the authority's board will oversee hiring and finances, officials said. He is also looking for assurances that the authority will not be biased in New Jersey's favor and will continue to cut its budget." NYTimes 1995 "Under a barrage of public criticism and a threatened veto by Gov. Thomas H. Kean of New Jersey, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has put off final action on a sweeping increase in bridge and tunnel tolls and the PATH train fare." NY Times 1989 "Governor Carey has threatened to veto any action by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to grant the supersonic Concorde airliner the right to land in New York." NYimes 1977 "Gov. William T. Cahill of New Jersey, who has vetoed a Port Authority decision creating the title of executive director emeritus for Austin J. Tobin, said yesterday that he had done so because the resolution was subject to "a multitude of interpretations" NYTimes 1972 So again, at the end of the day, it comes down to Corzine. Whether its making the PATH ADA accessible or maintaining weekend service at the WTC during construction of the Freedom tower, Corzine could insist on these improvements. In many cases, the mere THREAT of vetoing any and all actions of the Port Authority is enough to convince the other state to capitulate. Actually vetoing actions is another tactic. The bottom line is, particularly with PATH closure at the WTC, Corzine can and should be held accountable. As to the elevator situation, Grove Street's elevator is a line item in the 2008-2016 capital plan.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 13:12
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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I really hope the lawsuit is successful. I'm not confined to a wheelchair but it would be nice not to have to carry my suitcase up the stairs when I'm coming back from an out of town trip. How expensive could it have been to install elevators in the east entrance? I don't think it would mean any more digging up of the street. In any case, the problem is that the Port Authority, being a two-state agency is not under the control of any one single government hence they are responsible to no one. I am certain this is why they get away with crap like this. This is why I despise agencies like theirs - the Washington Metro Transit Authority that manages the metrorail and bus systems in the Washington,DC area (operating in DC, MD and VA) is no better although I believe all of their rail stations have elevators. I am certain that the Metro Transit Authority (MTA) in NYC since they are under both the city and neighboring county governments gets away with corrupt actions but to a lesser extent since they are entirely in NY.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 5:28
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Newbie
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My wife was confined to a wheelchair and while she was alive the installation of a set of elevators at Grove Street was important to us. According to the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA), passed in 1990, any building or structure was to be constructed or modified to allow access by persons with disabilities. The loop hole was that for existing structures they could delay making these accommodations until modifications or upgrades were made to the structure. When the east entrance to the Grove Street PATH Station was opened we were quick to notice that there was no elevator system down to the platform level. I wrote PATH and inquired why this was not done and what plans did they have to correct this oversight. PATH wrote back to me and explained that since they had not performed a modification or upgrade to the structure but had merely reopened an existing entrance they were not required to install elevators. They stated that they had no plans to install elevators at the station at all. They also stated that perhaps Grove Pointe might have plans to do so but they were not involved in that.
When PATH closed the east entrance they plugged the existing tunnel and entrance with rock and concrete. The easy task of re-opening took more than a year and required them to dig trenches in the roadways of Marin, Newark, and Columbus to create the tunnel. I?m sorry but this seems to be a major modification to the structure. There is currently a lawsuit filed against PATH for violating the ADA by not providing access for people with disabilities. The case in the form of a class action suit and its requirement for settlement is the installation of elevators at the east entrance. The case is moving very slowly because PATH is delaying the action as much as it can. If my wife and I wanted to take the PATH anywhere I was forced to push her wheelchair to either Newport or Exchange Place where there were elevators. Now I hear that Ward E Councilman Steven Fulop is concerned with PATH. Is it accessibility at Grove Street that he has turned his head to? No, he is worried about the platforms being crowded at Newport during rush hour. And PATH is concerned with SmartCards and new rail cars. Where are the priorities? Rob
Posted on: 2008/10/8 3:46
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Google "world trade center stairwells ending upper floors" Quite a few mentions turn up. There was at least one "Sky Lobby" on the 78th floor where some stairwells and elevator shafts ended, necessitating transfer to another.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 3:30
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Home away from home
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Yeah. Ridiculous is right. It was a fact that I became aware of as it was frequently mentioned in the survivors' accounts at the time. I'm sure that others here remember that as well. I'll look around and see what I can find online.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 2:53
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Home away from home
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What I don't understand is why the PATH folks didn't cut a deal with the Grove Pointe folks back when the getting was good. ADA aside, it seems to me that, if I were a stroller mom who worked and played in Manhattan but was thinking about living at Grove Pointe, or if I was a grocery store location scout thinking about putting a store in Grove Pointe, access to an elevator would be a huge plus.
Posted on: 2008/10/8 2:49
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Just can't stay away
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I never heard that the fire escape/stairwells were not continuous from top to bottom. I know that this is not Wikipedia but is there a news article you can post so that I can read up on that? It sound freaking ridiculous.
Posted on: 2008/10/7 23:22
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Home away from home
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Right. And I understand that since it was not "new" construction, they weren't required to make it handicapped accessible, which would otherwise have been the case. It's worth remembering that this is the same Port Authority that decided back in the sixties, that being a bi-state agency, they were not subject to New York City building codes and fire safety laws. That loophole allowed them to build the World Trade Center Towers with fire escape/stairwells that were not continuous from top to bottom.
Posted on: 2008/10/7 21:47
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Just can't stay away
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Hey smart guy, The eastern entrance isn't "completely new". The original station layout had two exits, one on the west end (where the McDonald's is now located - check the utility closets at that end that still contain remnants of the passageway). The eastern end has always been there, but was closed off when the central mezzanine was constructed in the 1970's when the PRR trestle was taken down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grove_Street_(PATH_station)
Posted on: 2008/10/7 21:30
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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Actually, they have a precedent that requires they install elevators in all the stations. Its called the American with Disabilities Act. There is some leeway in existing systems, but a court can determine whether or not an agency is making a good faith effort. There was a Times article about a year ago regarding the MTA's failures to keep pace with expanding elevator access and maintaining the access elevators already in their system. The Port Authority's capital plan does call for the installation of a new elevator at Grove Street. The fact that this was not installed when they built a completely new entrance just goes to show why the administrative level at the Port Authority needs to be replaced with an entirely new clean slate.
Posted on: 2008/10/7 20:43
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Home away from home
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Sadly we figured it out once we had our baby here. It really is unacceptable that they didn't make the Grove Pointe developers (or any of the new developments) pony up cash to get the PATH stations to first world status.
There's a thread on JC List to send complaints to the governor regarding newport crowding and infrequent night/weekend trains. I'd add elevators at all the stations as well...
Posted on: 2008/10/7 20:36
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Home away from home
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The Newport stop does have a elevator, just not Grove st.
Posted on: 2008/10/7 20:36
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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It's clear someone high up made a decision when they built a huge new entrance with no elevator. Maybe they thought it would set a precedent that they'd have to put elevators in all the non-terminal stops, or maybe they thought (probably correctly given the state of the escalators) that the maintenance of it would be too costly for the benefit.
Basically the PA hates the PATH, hates being saddled it's maintenance and resists any attempts to expand or modernize it.
Posted on: 2008/10/7 20:28
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Home away from home
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It is rather absurd -- maybe one is still being planned? Hopefully?
Posted on: 2008/10/7 17:19
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Re: Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Just can't stay away
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I agree with you...Jersey City and NYC don't seem very handicap/family friendly...from the lack of elevators, escalators being out of order, and the condition of the sidewalks...
Posted on: 2008/10/7 17:16
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Is it me or is an elevator missing at Grove Path??
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Home away from home
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Does anyone care that there is no elevator at Grove? they built the new entrance at the Corner of CCD with no elevator for for the disabled or for women with carriages....How did this happen? Is there an elevator at Newport?
It's really ridiculous.....
Posted on: 2008/10/7 17:14
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