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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Home away from home
 
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I think it's really the same as establishing a drive-through fast food zone. You have to either find a block where, really, just about every existing resident/tenant already is selling or using drugs, or you have to locate the druggie zone in a location that's now vacant. Also: in the 1920s, during Prohibition, liquor meant guns. Now liquor continues to cause a lot of bad behavior, but I can walk past the liquor store on the corner of Grove and Newark without worrying too much about alcoholics clubbing me over the head to buy Thunderbird. So, if you say, "Drugs are bad and people shouldn't use them," I agree with you. If drugs are legal, they will probably ruin more lives, just as alcohol quietly ruins more lives now than it did during Prohibition. But I think drugs would ruin fewer neighborhoods, because it would be a lot easier to restrict WHERE people sell and use drugs if drugs were legal, and it would be easier for addicts to buy drugs without robbing other people, because the drugs would probably be cheaper.
Posted on: 2006/8/30 4:42
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Clearly. Of course he didn't invent the internet. He's a politician. How could he? What I am refuting is what he actually DID say as quoted by you. Anybody in the know, knows that he didn't "TAKE THE INITIATIVE IN CREATING THE INTERNET" because he came along well *after* it was already FRICKIN there!! Do you get it now?
Posted on: 2006/8/30 4:09
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Newbie
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Clearly we are far off point. My point Gore never said he invented the internet, no one has refuted this point.
I think its a bit of a stretch to say "took the initiative in creating the Internet" is taking credit for the invention. If you apply context to the words it becomes obvious he did not mean he actually invented it, words don't exist in a vacuum. I am not a politican nor am I an apologist for Gore or Clinton or their policies.
Posted on: 2006/8/30 0:14
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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"What he meant by", and "what he actually said" are two very different things. Good on you for the work you do but by now you should know you can't put words in your client's or any other witness' mouth. What the hell was this thread about anyway, I got sucked into the grammar/logic/journalism/political BS facism. 
Posted on: 2006/8/29 23:04
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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you forgot the rest of the store where they stab you in the gut and take your wallet/purse.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 22:08
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Newbie
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i think we should give a big hug to every drug dealer, and tell them "hugs, not drugs."
they will probably start breaking down like matt damon in good will hunting. then we'll hug them harder and say "it's not your fault" over and over until they cry it all out.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 21:03
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Sweep the leg, bitches.
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Home away from home
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You guys must really miss Grad School!
Posted on: 2006/8/29 19:38
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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No, the Web was invented at CERN in Switzerland, the world's first website. Creation and invention are not synonyms but there is overlap. One sometimes wholly includes the other, but not always. You sound more like a politician than a technician. If you had been working on the internet, years before Gore made any of his utterances you would know what a joke this is. Whatever initiative he thinks he made didnt create anything that didnt already exist. That is the meaning of create, I think; not to build on or improve, but to construct from the beginning. If you are a politician, and interested in semantics, perhaps you can tell me what the "meaning of is is".
Posted on: 2006/8/29 18:44
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Newbie
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If the "system" worked there would have been no proceeding.
I agree poor folks should not have to live in dangerous conditions often brought about by the sale of drugs and we must correct this behavior so that hard working lower income residents have a safe atmosphere for their children However, the policy is flawed and often applied in a overbroad manner. The zoning suggestion is interesting but I doubt the "druggie" zone will be in a middle-high income neighborhood so its just squeezing the balloon, to another low income neighborhood. The policy can't work as a matter of economics. Some poor folks looking to make a quick buck realise that there is a market for illegal substances and they will rise to meet that market need without regard to anything else. Since the evictions don't address the market they will accomplish nothing. YOu need education and good police work and that still has it short comings in addressing market forces. Bottom-line legalize the soft drugs concentrate on the hard ones, treat (not jail) the addicts, educate the youth and hopefully you mitigate demand.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 17:17
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Newbie
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Hardly semantics
Two very different meanings, that convey two very different messages. That is the way propaganda works its subtle but significant. That was my only point and I think it has been made I am not denying the contributions of Mr. Lee he is the inventor but wasn't the web a DARPA project?
Posted on: 2006/8/29 17:08
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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What do they do with the people now living in these "project buildings" or these "blocks" of residential properties? Should the city send out letters saying -- "Sorry but you must move -- we have these guys who just got out of jail and they have a problem with drugs -- they need your houses and apartments" Also how would you like it if you owned or even rented a house next to where the city says must now be a "druggie zone"? I think people who have to live in the projects want these families who have drug dealing - gang bangers - out! They are tired of living in a war zone -- the hell with these families who cause the life of other poor people to be so hard. Drugs = Guns no Semantics
Posted on: 2006/8/29 17:05
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Must be the drugs. (In my case, the drug happens to be coffee with milk and sugar.) Anyhow, I fixed the problem.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 16:19
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Hey Alb,
You stopped mid sentence -- what happened? Quote:
Posted on: 2006/8/29 16:15
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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A modest proposal: my guess is that even the people here saying "throw da bums out" are somewhat libertarian about the drugs themselves. I think it would be good if cities could official designate certain housing project buildings and maybe even blocks to be "druggie zones," the way they zone certain areas to be strip mall zones. That way, people who want to buy and sell drugs could do so in peace, without having a bunch of moms pushing screaming babies past in strollers, and the moms wouldn't accidentally walk through parks that turn out to be shooting galleries. The Netherlands does this sort of thing with drugs and prostitution, and I think that works really well.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 16:01
Edited by alb on 2006/8/29 16:18:03
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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*tries to bring thread back on-topic*
Quote: NYCHA was proceeding with the eviction despite the circumstances. We won the case at trial but my client was very nearly evicted for no reason but for being a relative of a person who was selling drugs near her apartment. Looks to me the system worked here. You did a good job defending this woman's right to stay. There are bound to be exceptions to a rule like this and they need to be treated accordingly. I still think the policy is valid *IF* it is for tenants convicted of a drug related crime. The people that are living with these drug dealers/users are the ones that need help.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 15:38
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Please bear with me. I was following this debate but I must have gotten distracted and lost my train of thought. Let's see if I got this straight. Al Gore used the Egyptian and Roman tax money to invent the internet and that is why we have the one strike you're out policy which is applied unfairly due to the beaurocracy in the Song Dynasty? OK, I think I'm up to speed. Carry on.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 15:36
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Hey, are we going to have another discussion about semantics? No, he was very late to the party. The initiative was taken well before he opened his mouth, Ask the likes of Time Berners Lee or the folks that set up Arpanet. Always gives me a bloody good laugh each time I hear it, though (Sorry).
Posted on: 2006/8/29 15:33
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Newbie
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Here is the full quote;
During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. Now what he meant by initiative is that he provided the funding for it, in Congress he was a vocal advocate of the creation of the internet. Although that is not part of the quote that is what Congress does and that is where he was at the time. They provide funding for programs when he says initiative it meant funding but I concede he wasn't that clear "took the initiative" has become "invented the internet" which is a blanant falsehood. I think we agree on that point.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 15:10
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Just can't stay away
 
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Egyptian times / Roman times all had taxes. Initially some form of taxes were collected (not necessarily in the form of currency but grains and fish as an example) to provide protection from the ruling parties against invaders, so it goes back along time.
As they say you can't avoid death and taxes!
Posted on: 2006/8/29 13:54
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Quite a regular
 
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Actually, Gore didn't say anything about funding:
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet" Gore said when asked to cite accomplishments that separate him from another Democratic presidential hopeful, former Sen. Bill Bradley of New Jersey, during an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN on March 9, 1999. Gore supported technological advances related to the advancement of the Internet, but to say that HE took the initiative in creating the Internet is a bit much.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 13:41
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I'd go over 12 percent for that
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Newbie
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Sinik,
Thanks for repeating the propaganda. Al Gore never said he invented the internet. He said that he was at the forefront at providing funding for the development of the web and that is true. The quote to which you were referring was used during the 2000 election/selection, but was proven to be false. Taxation was in use in other regions before Europe that is also a fact. So one out of two ain't bad
Posted on: 2006/8/29 13:30
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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The nelogism 'bureacracy' might have been invented in 18th Century Europe but the concept goes back to the Song dynasty in China. That's a bit like Al Gore claiming he invented the information superhighway. I think taxation goes back to at least Egyptian times before money.
Posted on: 2006/8/29 12:36
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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A few observations.....Australian has it right for the most part. Stop the corporates feeding at the trough and use some the misused funds to build a real JC community.
City taxes The entire JC tax system is set-up for the high-end rental market at one end and subsidised "housing projects" at the other. No wonder there are very few people in the JC community that feel that they are real stakeholders. - Property tax for private owners in NJ and JC is obscene. - Large rental groups have negotiated huge property tax relief "One-strike" A NY-style "zero-tolerance" policy on crimes can work. So long as you have somewhere to push people. JC doesn't. It's also so far from having a critical mass that such measures just appease the hawks. JC should consider measures that give people a stake in the community: - real community-style housing, and not anonymous "project-style" tower blocks. - real community funding - leisure centers, religious groups, education...anything that fosters local community. - Option-to-own housing. Build affordable housing...give JC residents large discounts for buying and owning city property. Inward investment. JC has courted Wall St for a number of years. Guess what? Most of these jobs are going overseas. If JC wants to attract Wall St, or any other industry, we gotta work on the basics - good schools, med services, low crime, community policing and low local taxes. Focus on the worker's needs and not the corporate needs - attract the workers and the corporates will follow. Last word I'm from Europe where taxation and bureaucracy were invented. This country was founded on a revolt against taxation. So why is my net take-home much less (60% vs 40%)? The federal/state/local system here is a huge mess compared to anywhere in Europe, Common Agricultural Policy included. /rantoff
Posted on: 2006/8/29 7:57
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Just can't stay away
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I guess we need to have an investigative look at the financial report / budgets of New Jersey and Jersey City. This would include contracts that have been allocated and their cost effectiveness. (Paying money to a poor service provider is simply flushing money down the toilet - who does the 'checks and balances'?)
Does anyone do an audit on States and Cities? What I am noticing is that Jersey City especially, has a goverance and accountability style that was seen in the 60's. If cityhall had the 'right' policies and procedures in place for all its actions (employment, works etc etc) it would then by default be transparent. It would seem that cityhall is as muddy as the Hudson. In relation to crime, we need to spend BIG in the areas of education, sporting groups, religious groups, supporting families and similar youth organizations that can give OUR kids some direction. Not everyone can go to University, so government should help support and introduce trade schools for the vulnerable low income youth. Just imagine how many youths might want to learn how to be a gardener, landscaper, bricklayer, carpenter, plumber or electrician if it was cheap to learn - it will NOT get all the youth off the streets, but it would get some and once they start working it will be tax dollars returning (must be cheaper then some kid in prison for years) There must be a lot of Cities in the U.S that are doing the 'right thing' for their communities - send a delegation to find out how it 'ticks' and clone it here. And finally: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BAD CITY, JUST BAD MANAGEMENT / LEADERSHIP. It appears the greed for power is more important then the need to lead could sum up JC/NJ politics.
Posted on: 2006/8/28 20:13
Edited by Australian on 2006/8/28 20:56:36
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Is it, 'necessary'? Are you sure there is no waste, no corruption and no incompetence? In the news today: New Jersey is the highest tax paying state in the union at the same time as being one of the most densely populated. That doesn't seem to add up Study calls Jersey a taxing place to call home
Posted on: 2006/8/28 19:32
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Just can't stay away
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If there is a student out there doing criminology or similar, all they would need to do is hook up a few of the responses here and you would have an ok essay for school.
Even the 'hard-line' approach could be added in, to give it an objective view point.
Posted on: 2006/8/28 18:42
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Newbie
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I loved reading this thread. I think I am the only person on this thread that has acutally represented tenants in Drug Holdovers in Housing Court so I feel obligated to weigh in.
I represented a 70 year old lady that worked for the City of New York and had lived in Public Housing her whole life. While she was at work (yes, at 70) her grandson sold drugs in the same hall where her apt. was located. He was caught and plead out. They sought to remove her from public housing. NYCHA was proceeding with the eviction despite the circumstances. We won the case at trial but my client was very nearly evicted for no reason but for being a relative of a person who was selling drugs near her apartment. I think the reservations expressed by the ED of Jersey City Public Housing is that this type of action ensares many law abiding people who have few choices as far as housing due to finanical conditions. I agree those leaseholders that are actively engaged in selling drugs out of a public housing unit should be evicted but the blanket application of this policy is the problem. I have seen people evicted due to the fact that they had taken in grandchildren where they had no idea any drugs were being sold out of the apartment, when they thought the kids were in school they were in fact partying at the apartment and selling drugs. These are not turn the other way scenarios I also agree that the evictions accomplish nothing as far as the "war on drugs" These actions are like squeezing a balloon.. The war on drugs itself is a failure; as long as the demand exists the supply will be there. We have spent billions and nothing has changed, nothing except the drugs are more expensive and more potent.
Posted on: 2006/8/28 18:31
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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prisons are paid for by the taxpayer also. there's really no escape from having to pay for shitheads. the only question is: where will they do the least amount of harm?
short of creating a prison colony out of australia again, the best place to put them is prison. that said, the prison system IS a joke. it neither deters, nor rehabilitates. of course, rehabilitation and job training is a good idea, but so are: cold fusion, universal health care, and water fountains that serve chocolate milk.
Posted on: 2006/8/28 18:20
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Sweep the leg, bitches.
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Re: 'One-strike' you're out for drug-related crimes - Jersey City now gives families a second chance
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Just can't stay away
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I have no problem with strict or zero tolerance legislation and enforcement relating to the illegal drug culture but where will these people go, with more then likely no skills or education - should we ship them back to Europe, Asia, the America's or Africa?
One would think that a prison is an ideal location for drug users to be cured of their addiction - a controlled environment where drugs SHOULDN'T make there way in. As part of any rehabilitation or sentence inmates should be educated there with a trade, schooling or simply put to work but it appears instead, they are exposed to other forms of crime within that system with fellow inmates. Crime and punishment will never be an 'easy fix' but throwing a criminal mind on the street will cause GREAT problems for the community. 2 words come to mine resentment and payback - with higher rent payments for their families will mean more crime. Unfortunately our tax paying money has to go towards paying for the 'ill's' of our society - don't worry I don't like it neither but it is a necessary 'pain in the butt'. Once again a few paragraphs can never answer a complex question.
Posted on: 2006/8/28 15:50
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Australian
You seem to forget that all of this is govt subsidized, i.e. paid for by the tax payers, you know...like you and I ?? Maybe you don;t have a problem paying rent for a drug dealer and his family, but I sure as hell do !!!! CK
Posted on: 2006/8/28 15:24
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